Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[Neverbomb]

Bioware introduced a complex choice system which results in the "Good guy", the "Bad guy" or the "neutral" ending, cascading the morals of the player through the adventure. I live in the UK where me and my friends played Dragon Age and comparatively all followed the passive-aggressive middle path. Shortly after, the Conservatives announce that they will form a governing party with the support of the Liberal Democrats! Never before has a dialogue system reflected clearer the sociopolitical ethos of the player and his nation!

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8006/bioware-you-can-put-a-j-in-front-of-it-but-final-fantasy-13-isnt-an-rpg

Bioware's Daniel Erickson:
Well, before I address the main point I just want to take a slightly more controversial route: You can put a 'J' in front of it, but it's not an RPG. You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's."

I tend to agree but that's my opinion.

... That was pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Roleplaying game does not meant "Create your own character and live it out".
A good roleplayer can put him/herself into any character ROLE and PLAY it out.

I knew it.
Bioware is going to hell. It was only a matter of time.

Wow, someone else gets it!

Wow, someone else shares the same delusions as you!

Boy, I'm sorry, but if that's how you define 'RPG' then you epic fail at life. Is God of War an RPG? Resident Evil? Silent Hill? Assassin's Creed? Do you see where your theory starts to sound like hippy artistic BS?
You PLAY a ROLE. In particular, YOUR role. One you create/change yourself. Clicking 'A' or 'X' to cycle through pre-written dialogue, unable to influence the game through what you think YOUR CHARACTER would do,is no more 'Role-Playing' than reading a book.

Have fun with your disillusioned version of reality

 

[Abedeus]

Hell no. Neither Diablo nor Zelda are actually role playing games. Especially not Zelda, who the hell thinks Zelda is an RPG? When did I miss a Zelda with 99 levels of experience, loot and hundreds of enemies you beat with magic, in teams of 4 or more, fighting in turns?

I think that was my fault with the LoZ remark, but I disagree that diablo isn't an RPG just because you use a mouse to move instead of a D-pad dosen't make it less of an RPG. It's got most of the same elements that most RPG's have. Just because you play a single character in diablo dosen't detract from it being an RPG or does the first Dragon Quest/Warrior not count as an RPG?

Most of the RPGs use mouse on the PC. All of them, in fact... Except for crappy ports that is.

You don't role-play in Diablo. Nope. You can't say "Oh, I want to work WITH Andariel, and I'll spare Duriel". No, it's a hack'n'slash, where you hack and slash (or magic to death) everything you see on the screen that isn't marked with a green arrow on your mini-map.

It's an action-RPG, which is as much of an RPG as Mass Effect is an FPS. Or Crysis a tactical shooter. Or Sim City an RTS.

 

[Devour]

Wow, someone else shares the same delusions as you!

Boy, I'm sorry, but if that's how you define 'RPG' then you epic fail at life. Is God of War an RPG? Resident Evil? Silent Hill? Assassin's Creed? Do you see where your theory starts to sound like hippy artistic BS?
You PLAY a ROLE. In particular, YOUR role. One you create/change yourself. Clicking 'A' or 'X' to cycle through pre-written dialogue, unable to influence the game through what you think YOUR CHARACTER would do,is no more 'Role-Playing' than reading a book.

Have fun with your disillusioned version of reality

I don't think you understand.

DA:O and ME are as much RPGs as the Japanese crap is. They're all primarily stat up games with little more than a veneer of choice. That's not an RPG, to me.

Go play a P&P game before trying to claim any PC games is an RPG.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

All the stats and level-ups and equipment in the world doesn't change a thing about the fact that Final Fantasy typically has virtually no player-input when it comes to decision-making outside of combat. Characters play out their predetermined roles rather than following the player's roleplaying decisions.

Correction me if I mistaken however can you change Shepard's objective? No? Then you are playing out a predetermined role. Yes Shepard can be an obnoxious jerk or Jesus along the way, whereas say, Tidus, is following a linear line of development from initiation to conclusion however the objective of Mass Effect is still, and will remain: "Defeat Saren", just as FFX's objective remains: "Defeat Sin." It is simply different routes toward the same result.

 

[Grey_Focks]

That's actually a good point. Turned-based adventure gaming might be a better way to describe it.

Turn - Based Adventure Gaming? this could work guys.

*salutes

I'm honestly getting kinda sick of these arguments...If we are trying to discern what really defines a game as an RPG, I think the only games that will qualify are table-top RPGs.

I love BioWare, and I hate Square, but I still have to disagree with him.

 

[2fish]

*floods the thread with fanboy repellent*
Ok we are all happy to claim that some games are an RPG and some aren't. We need a base to compare from. I do not want a game I want a list of what makes a good RPG and what hurts a RPG. Once we have our base and do our logical debate we can then settle it with fanboy mud wrestling.

Do We Have A Deal?

-2fish

 

[Tharwen]

That is a good point, but there are so many people claiming that 'Game X is not Genre Y' that I think it's fair to say that some games deserve their own category.

That's actually a good point. Turned-based adventure gaming might be a better way to describe it.

Turn - Based Adventure Gaming? this could work guys.

You win an internet humour cookie. It's just a shame I can't find any right now. You just win, then.

 

[wolf thing]

i dont count ff as an rpg because i dont get much choise. i dont choise my styl of play or even my characters name. when i play an rpg i want to play the way i wont.

also just because you play as a specific character dose not make it an rpg. neithe dose leveling up.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8006/bioware-you-can-put-a-j-in-front-of-it-but-final-fantasy-13-isnt-an-rpg

Bioware's Daniel Erickson:
Well, before I address the main point I just want to take a slightly more controversial route: You can put a 'J' in front of it, but it's not an RPG. You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's."

I tend to agree but that's my opinion.

... That was pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Roleplaying game does not meant "Create your own character and live it out".
A good roleplayer can put him/herself into any character ROLE and PLAY it out.

I knew it.
Bioware is going to hell. It was only a matter of time.

Bu that doesn't happen in FF 13. A good roleplayer can roleplay any character, but that's entirely different from watching any character doing his own thing. In Mass Effect (honestly, this is the only example I can think of, not because it's a Bioware game) you get given a role. You are Commander Shepard, human commando. You then get to make choices restrained by your role as a guy fighting for humanity, but they are still your choices based on how you want to work with this role. Is Shepard the ultimate altruist, trying to save anyone and everyone, or a ruthless pragmatist, willing to go to any lengths to complete his goals? It's not the same when you just watch over a character's shoulder while you make no choices.

 

[tycho0042]

Tell me the name of an RPG where you have more influence in the outcome of game as in Fallout 3.

Since there are only two possible outcomes in Fallout 3 I'm going to say many. Specifically, Star Ocean 2 has what, 50 endings, various choices in recruitable characters, a choice for which main character to follow and choices as in which Private Actions to participate, as well as the choices you make within them (as they affect the outcome of the game)...

Star Ocean 2 wins.

But don't get me wrong, I've played and love Fallout 3(logged hundreds of hours in that game and could have obtained two Platinum trophies if that was possible).

Actually there are over 200 endings for Fallout 3

?
Be a douche and poison the water, or don't. That's the only two I know of.

He's probably referring to how the fallout games talk about your exploits in the various towns as changing the ending

 

[mexicola]

Yes I agree with this, it's laughable to call it an RPG.

 

[RanD00M]

But it has most of the regular RPG elements.You level up and progress your hero's strength.You go through a fairly good story.Ect,ect.
Bioware might make good RPG's.But that does not mean that they can go around like they own the fucking genre.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

So RPGs MUST contain choices outside of combat? Nah, that's an incorrect assessment.
Equipment is choice. How to synth your weapon is choice. What party and paradigms to assign/ use is choice.

In FFVII for example, there was a nigh-unlimited amount of Materia combinations. Is this choice? Absolutely.

How, exactly, is that statement incorrect? Equipment, weapons, materia, etc are all in-combat choices. They don't affect anything outside of combat. If in-combat choices were enough, I'd hereby like to state that Modern Warfare 2 is a better RPG than Final Fantasy 13.

Or as I've mentionned Star Ocean 2, with it's deep system of choices. PA's could affect everything from which party members joined, what missions were given and what ending you received.

I haven't played that game so I can't comment on that, but I don't see how Star Ocean 2 is relevant in a thread about Final Fantasy 13.

But honestly,who gives a rats ass if I can/ can't make Princess cry... does that have any real impact?

Does anything you do in a videogame ever have any real impact? Of course not. I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion.

 

[afaceforradio]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8006/bioware-you-can-put-a-j-in-front-of-it-but-final-fantasy-13-isnt-an-rpg

Bioware's Daniel Erickson:
Well, before I address the main point I just want to take a slightly more controversial route: You can put a 'J' in front of it, but it's not an RPG. You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's."

I tend to agree but that's my opinion.

I agree, RPGs allow you to choose your path, even if it it does follow one main linear 'motorway', the smaller paths you take should be your own. FFXIII is a big-ass, funky movie you get to control, really.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

All the stats and level-ups and equipment in the world doesn't change a thing about the fact that Final Fantasy typically has virtually no player-input when it comes to decision-making outside of combat. Characters play out their predetermined roles rather than following the player's roleplaying decisions.

Correction me if I mistaken however can you change Shepard's objective? No? Then you are playing out a predetermined role. Yes Shepard can be an obnoxious jerk or Jesus along the way, whereas say, Tidus, is following a linear line of development from initiation to conclusion however the objective of Mass Effect is still, and will remain: "Defeat Saren", just as FFX's objective remains: "Defeat Sin." It is simply different routes toward the same result.

Ever heard of the expression "the journey is more important than the destination"? A game might have a fixed destination, but in an RPG's case the more freedom you have on your journey to that destination, the better. Otherwise, you're just watching a movie intersected by interactive combat bits. Being free to make your own choices is one of the main things that define an RPG. Even a tabletop RPG is typically considered a horrible game if the GM forces all the characters down one linear road on the way to their objective.

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

Wow, someone else shares the same delusions as you!

Boy, I'm sorry, but if that's how you define 'RPG' then you epic fail at life. Is God of War an RPG? Resident Evil? Silent Hill? Assassin's Creed? Do you see where your theory starts to sound like hippy artistic BS?
You PLAY a ROLE. In particular, YOUR role. One you create/change yourself. Clicking 'A' or 'X' to cycle through pre-written dialogue, unable to influence the game through what you think YOUR CHARACTER would do,is no more 'Role-Playing' than reading a book.

Have fun with your disillusioned version of reality

I don't think you understand.

DA:O and ME are as much RPGs as the Japanese crap is. They're all primarily stat up games with little more than a veneer of choice. That's not an RPG, to me.

Go play a P&P game before trying to claim any PC games is an RPG.

That's what I'm saying, is that they AREN'T RPGs. I'd count Oblivion, MMORPGs, hell, I'd even put KOTOR above what are generally labeled as 'RPG'. I'd say 2fish summed it up best.

As we will never agree on what makes a game a RPG or not I will simply list what I expect from my RPG games.
1. Choices that make a difference. If I tell the Princess to fuck off I expect an appropriate response
2. Character development, it could be the struggle to find yourself or even just trying to keep your humanity.
3. Story has to draw me in, a weak story really hurts RPG's
4. Combat must be functional
5. Character builds that actually seem to matter, if I make my mage a fire mage he had better damn well be better at fire magic than my jack of all trades mage.
6. Multiple ways to solve a problem, talk it out, stealth, or just bash in everyone?s head
7. Good NPC's and teammates see HK47, Garrus, Tali, Mad god from Oblivion, ect

Nice additions:
1. Character Customization, not needed but helps me feel closer to my character
2. Good Maps
3. The ability to be an evil bastard
4. Large amount of side quests
5. Enemies that level up with you so that the game never becomes too easy

Things to Avoid:
1. Lack of role playing aka no real power to the player to move events in the story, I hate being a pawn to the game gods in RPGs. If it doesn?t feel like I have a purpose why am I playing?
2. Life simulation, I am not playing the Sims
3. Annoying characters that you cannot avoid and have a grand total of 3 lines they say every 15 seconds.

I am sure I will think of more things later.

-2fish