Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[Pillypill]

Quite right, I've liked all the FF's i've palyed (bar 13), the FF's leading up to 13 didn't have the staples of Western RPGs, but they did at least offer some choice for the player and allowed fre roaming, and while you were still playing as...Tidus(?) he was different from the Tidus(?) you played through with in your last run through, that for me is just about enough to justify calling the FFs RPGs. FF13 is definatly not an RPG it's an adventure game, a very very long adventure game.

*edit* FF13 has NO role palying, thereby is not in any way an RPG (J'- or otherwise)

 

[Rayansaki]

Saying FFXIII isn't an RPG because it lacks one of the popular features in RECENT RPG's is like saying Mass Effect is an interactive graphic novel because it features one of the genre's defining features. Good going Erickson.

But it isn't. Dragon Warrior 1&2 allowed me to change the name of the hero I controlled. Therefore, with that simple step, I assumed control of that character and played the role of that character. That simple step made it an RPG. In an RPG you don't just play the role of a character, you ARE the character. In FF XIII you aren't the characters, you hardly control them outside of moving and fighting. FF XIII is not an RPG because of this. Just because a game has a level up system and an inventory system doesn't make it an RPG.

So, because you character is called Fagballs instead of Cloud, the game is suddenly an RPG?

First off, this isn't debating whether FF VII is an RPG. This is debating whether FF XIII is an RPG. So don't compare two subjects that don't apply.

To answer your question, not specifically. For example. In Mass Effect you are Commander Shepard. You may choose his/her name but that may not change the fact that you are Commander Shepard to everyone you meet. The fact of the matter is you ARE the character. You don't control the character. You ARE the character. All you do is control a character in FF XIII. You don't fill the character's role, you simply control them from point a to point b.

So because I say Cloud instead of Lightning my argument is false?
I can also argue that all you do in ME is control the character. Sure, you can bang a different alien this time around, or have someone else die in the end but it is false pretenses of choice, and the game is still going from A to B just as much as FFXIII (and flame me all you want but, it is JUST AS LINEAR)

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Saying FFXIII isn't an RPG because it lacks one of the popular features in RECENT RPG's is like saying Mass Effect is an interactive graphic novel because it features one of the genre's defining features. Good going Erickson.

Way to fail at logic.

What you're saying is this:

- All RPGs have [certain features].
- Final Fantasy does not have [certain features].
- Final Fantasy is not an RPG.

To far, so good. But the second half of your post contains a deductive fallacy:

- All interactive novels have [certain features].
- Mass Effect has [certain features].
- Mass Effect is a graphic novel.

The reason this is a fallacy is that, while interactive novels all have these features, there's nothing saying that these features are exclusive to graphic novels. If you said that only[/I] graphic novels have these features your reasoning would be correct, but we all know that making choices that affect the story isn't an exclusive feature to any genre.

But it isn't only RPG's that have said features. There are plenty of games that use inventories (RE), levling (Borderlands), specialization (Borderlands), etc. that I wouldn't call RPG.

Correct, but utterly irrelevant. I never claimed that only RPGs have those features. The statement you're arguing against was never made. It is also, for the record, completely unnecessary in the reasoning as I posted it.

And not all RPG's have the "ALL RPGs HAVE THOSE FEATURES" features, because there is no feature that is included by every single RPG, so you logic uses false premises.

I'm inclined to agree, apart from one bit. It wasn't my logic I was dissecting here, it was yours.

 

[Baconmonster723]

Does it have stats and levels as a focus point of combat? It does? Congrats. It's an RPG.

Bioware, Dragon Age IS an RPG.

But Mass Effect is a third person shooter. You're level hardly matters, and you get few skill points.

So Borderlands is an RPG then?

Yes, actually. Your level and equipment play a big role in combat. 2-3 levels make a huge difference in that game, with the giant icons saying "Don't even try to kill this!" It's an RPG in the vein of Diablo.

I would hug you if I could find you. I've been waiting for someone to admit it.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Does it have stats and levels as a focus point of combat? It does? Congrats. It's an RPG.

Bioware, Dragon Age IS an RPG.

But Mass Effect is a third person shooter. Your level hardly matters, and you get few skill points.

Is the amount of skill points you get per level the way to determine whether or not something is an RPG? That's... news.

 

[Rayansaki]

I'm inclined to agree, apart from one bit. It wasn't my logic I was dissecting here, it was yours.

Well, it was actually the way you perceived my logic, not really my logic, and that perception is flawed.

 

[MatParker116]

I don't know. I respect Bioware and the games they make (I love Mass Effect), but that seems kind of egotistical. Games like Final Fantasy have been considered RPGs due to various class choices and sat rasing since the 1980s. What made them suddenly not RPGs?

Because you do neither of those things in FF13

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

Does it have stats and levels as a focus point of combat? It does? Congrats. It's an RPG.

Bioware, Dragon Age IS an RPG.

But Mass Effect is a third person shooter. Your level hardly matters, and you get few skill points.

Is the amount of skill points you get per level the way to determine whether or not something is an RPG? That's... news.

Bioware took a dumbed-down RPG...took all the stat management out except for leveling and a few skill points, and are going to get RPG of the Year awards for making a third person shooter with less RPG elements than GTA: San Andreas. Because San Andreas has skill meters for everything.

 

[jamesworkshop]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8006/bioware-you-can-put-a-j-in-front-of-it-but-final-fantasy-13-isnt-an-rpg

Bioware's Daniel Erickson:
Well, before I address the main point I just want to take a slightly more controversial route: You can put a 'J' in front of it, but it's not an RPG. You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's."

I tend to agree but that's my opinion.

Wasn't it the Japanese who came UP with the first RPG's? (video game wise)

No that would be Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981)

Wizardry began as a simple dungeon crawl by Andrew C. Greenberg and Robert Woodhead. It was written when they were students at Cornell University and then published by Sir-Tech. The first five games in the series were written in Apple Pascal, an implementation of UCSD Pascal, and were ported to many different platforms by writing UCSD Pascal implementations for the target machines (Mac II cross-development).

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

I totally agree. FF13 is no more a RPG than Halo.

I never thought i'd ever hear somthing SO IDIOTC! in my entire life. like my god man are you gamer at all? It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. --Mark Twain

In stead of throwing around insults, why not try to disprove the statement?

Crazy idea, I know. But you might want to give it a try.

Ok. You assume the roles of predefined characters they have intresting personalities (all my oppinion) but that dosent matter you assume the roles of 6 characters you level up get stronger get new weapons so you can more effectivly kill things and level up. theres stats items accesorrys you can buy and sell shit. FF13 is more of an RPG then mass effect is. All my oppinion just like how it's biowares oppinion.

I still don't see how this means "FF13 is more of an RPG then mass effect is."

You take the role of predefined characters in almost any videogame, not just RPGs. The fact that these characters are 100% predefined and you have virtually no influence over their actions or their development is more of an argument against it than for it.

Stats and equipment are also a part of many different games. If I buy new clothes and weapons in Grand Theft Auto, does that mean GTA is an RPG? Actually, come to think of it GTA is more of an RPG than FF, since I actually get to roleplay a character in stead of watching a character play a predefined role as told through static cutscenes.

 

[supergood15]

if you go by a true rpg definition then a really good example is WWE Raw, idk what year,it came out on the original Xbox. call me crazy yeah i know. but you create your character and you give him personality traits.you create a career and in it you are given choices like, would you like to stomp out booker t? and so on and so forth. you develop your character to reach the top of the career. dont get me wrong this game sucked and the actual wrestling part of it was so unbalanced it was funny. but the amazing thing is you were given complete and total free reign. in the WWE alone of course. in my opinion no other game has come close to anything like this. you could be a creepy dude who wanders around aimlessly or some cocky dick who calls everyone out. im not a fan of wrestling in any way this is simply an example. maybe a game with similar elements in a more open environment where i could chose to be mute or have a battlecry or something like that. its the tiny quirks that take a game out of a regular old adventure title into a game that is completely driven by you.

 

[Don't Poke My Bobcat]

RPG now has so many different connotations anyone can claim either side of the coin and not be wrong or right.

I could argue that I'm taking the role of Lightning and her allies. Role playing is such a loose term we'd long ago foregone it's literal term in favour of describing elements in a game, i.e. stat progression.

I recall games such as Ratchet and Clank being described as RPGs.

A true RPG in the very basest form would involve a blank slate character with completely free form choices - able to type in or say whatever whenever. If I suddenly wanted to shoot the person with a rare card instead of trying to best him in a duel I would.

So in all accuracies, no game is an RPG yet. Especially not Mass Effect.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

I'm inclined to agree, apart from one bit. It wasn't my logic I was dissecting here, it was yours.

Well, it was actually the way you perceived my logic, not really my logic, and that perception is flawed.

It was your logic as you wrote it down. If that wasn't your actual logic, try writing what you mean next time.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

I totally agree. FF13 is no more a RPG than Halo.

I never thought i'd ever hear somthing SO IDIOTC! in my entire life. like my god man are you gamer at all? It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. --Mark Twain

In stead of throwing around insults, why not try to disprove the statement?

Crazy idea, I know. But you might want to give it a try.

Ok. You assume the roles of predefined characters they have intresting personalities (all my oppinion) but that dosent matter you assume the roles of 6 characters you level up get stronger get new weapons so you can more effectivly kill things and level up. theres stats items accesorrys you can buy and sell shit. FF13 is more of an RPG then mass effect is. All my oppinion just like how it's biowares oppinion.

I still don't see how this means "FF13 is more of an RPG then mass effect is."

You take the role of predefined characters in almost any videogame, not just RPGs. The fact that these characters are 100% predefined and you have virtually no influence over their actions or their development is more of an argument against it than for it.

Stats and equipment are also a part of many different games. If I buy new clothes and weapons in Grand Theft Auto, does that mean GTA is an RPG? Actually, come to think of it GTA is more of an RPG than FF, since I actually get to roleplay a character in stead of watching a character play a predefined role as told through static cutscenes.

I have to agree with you Derp. The "You're playing a pre-built role" defense is bullshit.

But this does nothing to hurt my "It's about stats" stance.

 

[Legion IV]

I don't know. I respect Bioware and the games they make (I love Mass Effect), but that seems kind of egotistical. Games like Final Fantasy have been considered RPGs due to various class choices and sat rasing since the 1980s. What made them suddenly not RPGs?

Because you do neither of those things in FF13

Umm yes they are. Am sorry just the way i see it is Mass effect isint and RPG.

 

[Baconmonster723]

Saying FFXIII isn't an RPG because it lacks one of the popular features in RECENT RPG's is like saying Mass Effect is an interactive graphic novel because it features one of the genre's defining features. Good going Erickson.

But it isn't. Dragon Warrior 1&2 allowed me to change the name of the hero I controlled. Therefore, with that simple step, I assumed control of that character and played the role of that character. That simple step made it an RPG. In an RPG you don't just play the role of a character, you ARE the character. In FF XIII you aren't the characters, you hardly control them outside of moving and fighting. FF XIII is not an RPG because of this. Just because a game has a level up system and an inventory system doesn't make it an RPG.

So, because you character is called Fagballs instead of Cloud, the game is suddenly an RPG?

First off, this isn't debating whether FF VII is an RPG. This is debating whether FF XIII is an RPG. So don't compare two subjects that don't apply.

To answer your question, not specifically. For example. In Mass Effect you are Commander Shepard. You may choose his/her name but that may not change the fact that you are Commander Shepard to everyone you meet. The fact of the matter is you ARE the character. You don't control the character. You ARE the character. All you do is control a character in FF XIII. You don't fill the character's role, you simply control them from point a to point b.

So because I say Cloud instead of Lightning my argument is false?
I can also argue that all you do in ME is control the character. Sure, you can bang a different alien this time around, or have someone else die in the end but it is false pretenses of choice, and the game is still going from A to B just as much as FFXIII (and flame me all you want but, it is JUST AS LINEAR)

If you feel I'm flaming you I apologize, it wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to prove a point. Let's just compare ME 2 and FF XIII, if this argument doesn't convince you, I'll leave it be, it's not my intention for us to walk away from this angry at each other.

ME 2
-LVL up system
-Limited, but existant inventory system.
-Party format for combat
-Skill to use in combat
-Ability to lvl up skills
-Stats are limited to damage, shields, and health.

FF XIII
- LVL up system
- Inventory System
- Party format for combat
- Skill use in combat
- Ability to lvl up skills
- Usual stats of magic, str, con, etc.

As you see both share these elements. Normally I would jump all over the fact that these games are RPGs.

However, one lacks the core element of an RPG. The player, assuming the role of a character in that universe. In Mass Effect you ASSUME CONTROL (sorry I had to at some point), of the Commander Shepard in that universe. You ARE Commander Shepard.

In FF XIII, however, you don't play the role of Lightning, Sazh, Snow, Vanille, Hope, or Fang (I don't think I forgot any :/ ). You are simply a puppeteer pulling strings. Their characters are set in stone as stock characters with zero control over any actions that the character performs throughout the story. Nothing the player does has any effect on the story beyond Game Over or Ultimately Victory.

Again, I apologize if I appeared to be flaming earlier. Not my intention.

 

[Altorin]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8006/bioware-you-can-put-a-j-in-front-of-it-but-final-fantasy-13-isnt-an-rpg

Bioware's Daniel Erickson:
Well, before I address the main point I just want to take a slightly more controversial route: You can put a 'J' in front of it, but it's not an RPG. You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's."

I tend to agree but that's my opinion.

Wasn't it the Japanese who came UP with the first RPG's? (video game wise)

On the consoles, there were RPG video games on the PC before JRPGs came around with Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.

Japan dominated the console market almost entirely for 20 years.

 

[rsacks]

Wow, I though it was just Bioware fans who bashed on JRPGs. Turns out Bioware employees do too? *sigh*

He is wrong, WRPGs do not fit the full definition of RPG so if JRPGs don't then neither do they.

Just curious, how do WRPGs not fit the full definition of RPG? I don't disagree with you, just want to hear your view.

OT: As an avid player of pen and paper RPGs (such as D&D and White Wolf) I find it hard to call any video game a "true" RPG. Any video game has a predetermined path you MUST follow. Sure some games allow more leeway in your choices than other, but ultimately, you as the player have no choice in what happens.