Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

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Sibbo

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MelasZepheos said:
I tend to classify Role-Playing Games as 'any game in which I have stats which increase through experience, granting me more power/speed/etc'

Thus Halo is not an RPG, since all of my stats remain exactly the same throughout, but Final Fantasy (I'm not going to be playing XIII, but VI, VII, VIII, IX and XII) are RPGs.

I know my definition won't exactly be universal, but really, Bioware's games don't let me fully roleplay either. If I wanted to fully roleplay in any game I'd be a lovable rogue, ostensibly out for himself but getting into scrapes to help people he's met, and getting paid wouldn't lose me experience points. (Now I'm looking squarely at you Bioware. Who decided that nice guys never get paid huh?)

In Bioware games you play as a True Neutral, a Chaotic Evil, or a Lawful Good, there are no other options, so where exactly is my role-playing choice for Chaotic Good? And why couldn't I join the Blue Sun mercenaries if I wanted to?

Harp on about character creation all you like Bioware, but Fallout 3 has let me in three days get closer to the sort of character I want than your games did in several weeks of playthroughs.
Nice post and counter argument.

It is a bit of kettle calling the pot black, I love Mass Effect and Dragon Age and think they're great rpgs, but theres quite a lot of limitations on both. Bethesda creates open worlds where you can be whatever you feel like, your railroaded onto a main quest line but apart from that your free to explore and develope your character as you see fit.

Plus having a fully developed personality in a character can increase the enjoyment. Forcing you into a new viewpoint.
 

Lullabye

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I always thought this was the difference between western and J style rpg's.
Western, you more or less take on the role of you're own creation.
Japanese style you take on the role of predetermined character.
what's so hard about this to understand?
Though of course, this is one of those very subjective terms.
maybe we should just stick to categorizing games by gameplay type.
fps
rts
tpaa
mmo
platformer
side scrolling platformer/shooter
etc
 

Halo Fanboy

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I'm thinking that according to Bioware, multiplayer Halo is more RPG like than Mass Effect. In Halo you get to be a nameless guy or alien and in Mass Effect the guy has a last name already.
 

RadicalDreamer90

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This will certainly look like My Crysis 2 shut down, but I guess I can't help jumping on ignorance where it stands. Before I go into an argument, since when does the progeinetor get outclassed by the spin off? Since when does the Parent have less authority then the child? Biowares acting like they're the messiah of RPGS after a few entries when Squares been around longer then half of their life span.

Getting to the actual argument. JRPG's do not incorporate a wide array of choices like Western RPGS. Mostly because their definition of an RPG and the cliche' version America took up are a bit different. I've argued I hate seeing games like Dragon Age and Oblivion that literally are direct copies from a D&D book. I understand that D&D set the stage for all RPG games on consoles, but stop dick riding the concept. At least JRPGS feed me something other then what I already know is coming. At least I get a story that isn't just told in medieval England. Yes, alot of the feedback from the player is taken away in alot of JRPGS, but you know what? In the past 2 decades, no ones has really given a damn, and trust and believe that won't change. I like a carefully crafted tale expressed over an expansive world. I like being able to be able to explore and evoke feelings of attachment to characters and elements of said world. I have never been truly immersed in any western RPG title, and until people like them stop riding D&D's cock I don't think I'll get that chance. I've heard Mass Effect has good writing, but hey, I haven't fit the time in my schedule to check that out.

When it's said and done, I've always looked at RPGS as interactive novels, and nothing more. They've become the staple to why I even play video games, and I'll damned if some 7th gen company tries to tell anyone otherwise.
 

William Dickbringer

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but just because you create a character make choices and live in them doesn't mean that it's an RPG necessarily

EDIT: how come every american game designer seems cocky and bash other games
 

dogcat

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Isn't the very main characteristics of RPGs: non-linear narrative and roleplaying? If you look back at its roots, it's where it has come from and been built upon for years.

Does FF13 have any of these characteristics? The narrative is completely linear and you are given no influence over your characters, other than mechanical gameplay values. You can think what you will of games like Dragon Age, but fact remains that it has one of the most complex quest designs of RPGs. There are several other RPG elements that could have been done a lot better, especially in ME-series. Still, I feel BioWare's RPGs are true to the very core components of RPGs.

(hi by the way, first post)
 

Grey_Focks

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To put in my two cents before I once again remind myself entering topics about JRPGS or Halo is a BAD IDEA, I think JRPGs are as much RPGs as KotOR, slightly less than Baldur's gate(pc ones, mind you) or dragon age, and possibly more so than mass effect 2.

really though, there are NO true RPGs available that aren't tabletop games. The closest we have right now are the likes of Elder Scrolls and Fallout, and even those are pretty limiting, and they sacrifice story structure for their open-endedness (yes, I made that word up).

Games like FF13 and ME2 are NOT traditional RPGs, and looking at them, I'm glad they aren't. If they were more like, say, Fallout 3, sure I would be able to fuck around more and make my character exactly the way I want, but the stories both games are known for would suffer for it, and overall neither game would really be better off.

well, I atleast I think so. Have yet to play FF13, and unless a friend let's me borrow it, I probably wont for a year or until the price drops dramatically. Cold day in hell when I pay full price for something square makes...
 

Nigh Invulnerable

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Jannycats said:
Isn't it the same case with Diablo? All the characters you can play with are already created and there are no choices to be made by the players. But it's still considered an RPG. Same with Zelda.

I don't know... I always considered a game an RPG as long as you can level up at your own pace, have an inventory stuffed full of objects, and a reasonably open world to explore. And maybe armor you can switch around that changes the way you look.
Personally, I don't consider Diablo or Zelda RPGs. Diablo is a little closer to how I define the RPG, but it's mostly just what I would call hack 'n slash since all you really do is click on things til they're dead. Zelda is merely an adventure game in a fantasy setting. You don't really do anything to create the characters in either, and there's not really much decision making to be made, beyond maybe choosing to go for melee vs. ranged.

In the case of Final Fantasy games, while you really have no control over the initial character creation process, you do have some control over how the characters progress (especially in the latest FF games) so it's still basically an RPG, just with less customization than many other games that I would classify as RPGs.

Here's how I define RPGs: You almost always build a character, or multiple ones, to start. You get to determine race, class, sex, etc. From there, you adventure around the game world following story threads and sidequests, gaining levels and improving your stats and equipment. Final Fantasy comes kind of close, but most of the time there has been very little control over how you level up your character beyond a few choices in equipment and such.
 

dogcat

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What does it matter to X game if Y game is considered RPG by the public? Whether or not Diablo/Zelda are RPGs isn't relevant to the topic. It doesn't matter how many people think Zelda is an RPG, it's still not true.
 

Asophetes

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I think this is the first time we've heard about this Erickson fellow, and he's not even one of the main guys at BioWare. But I still think the reason RPG's are called RPG's is because YOU, not the character your playing as, not your virtual avatar, YOU are deciding how to affect this world. Cosmetic choices don't really matter as much because they're just representing you. He's not knacking on Final Fantasy 13 as a game, he's just questioning the classification. And just a bit off topic, but why are people comparing Mass Effect as the "BioWare RPG"? Dragon Age probably is the better example of RPG-hood, and in my opinion, is better than either one.
 

HyenaThePirate

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...all of the characters have stats that can be modified by switching accessories or weapons or gaining portions of your crystarium. Oh and all of the weapons have stats and can be upgraded if you so choose so it can gain better abilities or become completely new weapons. So...what are you talking about?
What you describe isn't modifying stats to me, it's just swapping gear. I guess perhaps you are right that by switching from one weapon to the progressively stronger (but similar in design) weapon you can effect some behind the scenes modifier that provides an illusion of 'customization' but to me it's essentially the same thing as swapping out an early stage shotgun for a more powerful shotgun in a shooter. It does more damage, simply by virtue of NOT being 'starter gear'. And for all the "pluses" that might be detailed on an accessory in a game, I hardly if ever notice it to be of any major benefit... a +2 fire resistance ring in FFXIII might as well be a +2 ring of shiny-ness for all the good that is immediately noticeable. A fire based boss monster using a fire based attack will still turn you into an androgynous pile of ash just as quickly without that ring as with it. Of course, this is merely my own experience, but I suppose that I simply prefer that when I switch weapons, stats, armor, etc, that it have an immediately noticeable effect instead of some unseen potential effect behind the scenes where it is just crunched into some random number algorithm that has about as much effect on my enjoyment of the game as knowing the name of the light and shadows programmer at the developer.

Don't sell me 'trading giant ninja star A for gianter ninja star B' as true stat modification and roleplaying. At the end of the day I'm still playing with exactly the same set of rigid toys that were given to me with little deviation.

Maybe for that character fire is considered an upper-tier move. Do we give all RPG characters access to high tier moves from the very beginning of the game? No, you earn them as you go. Also, crystarium certainly wasn't the best system, but there are instances where you decide what role your character is going to fill. Medic? Okay, be a medic. Blk Mage? Okay, be that. it's designed to make your characters fulfill roles, which plays into you creating different skill-sets and getting familiar with the battle system. Does it allow you to set up the same kind of skill sets you had in previous games?
Again, same problem. Want to be a medic? Ok be that. Want to be a Blk mage? Ok be that too, but only when/if we allow you the option. Preferably after you spend all your available points going through the tedium of filling out another role's options. By the way, every one of those skills allows zero modification.. simply hold down button X to fill the tank with points until walla! you gain another skill. Oh, sure, you can 'skip a few' here and there that you don't really want if you WANT to, but those are usually set off to the side at random and are almost ALWAYS something you actually really DO want. Its "carrot on a stick" gameplay and its almost laughable when compared to other RPG customization options. Check out Valkyria Chronicles if you want to see what true customization and skill assignment in an RPG is suppose to look like. Or Persona.

No, but then again, isn't being a bit divergent a good thing? Sure, it wasn't too successful, but at least they tried something new instead of popping out FFVII again.
Sure, it CAN be a good thing. But it can also suck. This is one of those times that they diverged themselves off a cliff and ruined an element of Final Fantasy that has until now been mostly an expected feature. To be honest, it would have probably been better to pop out Final Fantasy VII again with a slightly tweaked menu/combat system and updated visuals, refine the story a bit and boom, a game that kicks the hell out of FFXIII any day of the week.

I think it's been throughly pointed out that 'playing a role' is something you do in every video game. Calling that a defining characteristic of the RPG is allowing all games to be RPG's. Even so, you should look at the battle system itself. You are filling roles of medic, sentinel, synergist, saboteur, ravager, or commando. You also get to choose what role you fill. At the beginning it's only three per character, but it gets expanded to all six per character later on.
And I have never agreed with that line of thought. I do NOT believe that you "play a role" in every video game. There is a vast difference between stepping into a role and "taking control of an established character". It's the difference between playing a character in a movie and DIRECTING a character in a movie. I am not Master Chief in Halo, I simply control him through his adventures. In Fallout, I am whatever you want to call that character. I choose his abilities, I decide his behavior, I do all of his thinking. In God of War, I simply move Kratos from point A to point B in the story as the story and levels were written and provided. In Oblivion, the adventure is where ever I chose to make it. My choice. My decisions. That is what a "role" is. This highly philosophical nonsense about every incarnation in every game, film, or book being YOU somehow placed into that role for we are all players and blah blah blah has always fallen flat with me. If its not me, if its not what I would choose to do given an option, then it ISN'T ME. And if it ISN'T me, the illusion is shattered and it is not a ROLE any longer... unless you count "Active participant Spectating" as a role.

to the bold:Okay, given, I didn't finish the game...but is that some character that I just missed? Is it some secret character in the last chapter or do you just not know the names of the characters you wanted in your party?
I'm sorry, I was thinking of Snow and Lightning and an anime and got myself all discombobulated. I meant Fang, who reminds me of Frost from an anime series.



You can upgrade literally every weapon and change their stats. You can pick what archetype each of your character fills on your team.
No, you can choose between Airwing type A and Airwing type B or Sword-gun 1 and Sword-gun 2.0. But if you want Lightning to use dual pistols like Sazh, sorry, can't do that. Want Snow to stop hitting things like a dumbass with his fists and use a big ass Cid-type spear? Sorry, can't do that either.

Oh but you can upgrade their weapons, you are right about that. Whenever you get tired of Airwing 2.0 you can upgrade it to Windwing 1.0 or Breezewing 2.5 (these names are not real names, I'm just making a point).
Essentially you can upgrade each weapon into 4 types, but since each character has essentially ONE super bad ass iteration of that weapon, all customization goes out the window. It's NOT like switching Materia... you literally just have to google "best weapon for lightning" and get exactly the info needed to upgrade her to the best weapon she has available in the game. You don't even win it, no epic Ultimate boss monster quest to get a chance a drop for it, no camping, no random encounter... just "follow these steps and you'll have it by end game", at which point the end game becomes as difficult as guiding Bert into Ernie's bedroom after a couple of shots of tequila.
 

RatRace123

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I love Bioware with a passion... and this just makes that love stronger!!! Yeah, I don't consider FF an RPG anymore, it's no more an RPG than Zelda is. Doesn't mean it's bad, just not an RPG. I think the general notion of an RPG has changed, RPGS like Mass Effect and Fable are now what people think of; character creation, moral choices, defining the aspects of your character, and creating your story. In FF13 you never change the story, you're always the same set of characters, who's motives and alignments are always concrete.

I guess my main qualification for an RPG is customization, the more options the better.
 

StriderShinryu

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Wow.. why is this thread still going? *sigh*

In any case, I really find myself wondering if those who say choices in ME or Dragon Age have no impact upon the game have, you know, actually played ME and/or Dragon Age. Yes, the beginning of the games is pretty much set in stone as is the final battle (along with a handful of key plot points in the middle) but that's about it. The rest is all optional and very much molded by your own choices and decisions.
 

sivlin

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CloudKiller said:
As a fan of both Bioware and Square Enix, I agree, especially in the case of FF13, linearity isn't a bad thing but it does go against what an RPG is all about.
0_o. Linearity certainly does not go against what an RPG is all about. Linearity has absolutely no bearing on the term "RPG". ROLE is the word of the day here. As in a game that you play a role in? I think the term RPG has just been pigeonholed into being forced to have certain elements that actually have no bearing on whether something is an RPG or not. In my opinion, all games are RPG's as you are (most likely) not playing a game about yourself doing real life events. It is from that starting point that you begin to define what the game actually is. I will give that Dragon Age has a more traditional RPG feel to it than Final Fantasy, but that is only because they took cues from DND and that is what normally defines a "True" RPG.
 

Greennight

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The Definition of an RPG as said by Bioware does not include FF13. Nuff said, there's not really much to kvetch about.
 

Kwoodchuck

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wow... i now realize it. ive always hated the final fantasy series... but darn it you make me understand why!!! :D
 

Lynxan

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Actually, I'd say it's the other way around for the most part. The term is Role Playing Game and that means you are playing a role. There's nothing in it about it that says it's you, hell, if you really think about it there are far more "Role Playing" games out there. I mean it don't matter if it's an avatar of yourself, Spyro the Dragon, the Adventure dot or anyone else. Your playing the role of them.. hell, your playing the roll of a sport team in a sport title.

Now, I know that they are talking about that particular style of games, but if they want to get technical with the term, this is the facts as according to the words.