Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[acosn]

Unfortunately while it may be easy to poke fun at FF13 for being liner (as opposed to provided a rather flimsy illusion there in- when you really get down to it even the most open ended WRPGs have the same ending) at least the game is solid, even if it's about as dynamic as a grilled cheese.

Bioware on the other hand can't help but rehash morals and characters but pray people wont notice if they put a different face on them and put them in another setting. Woops. I'd rather clear out sections of games that most gamers have pointed out end up being gimmicky distractions and save the man hours for what will hopefully be enjoyed than engage in broad scale literary hackery.

 

[Jennacide]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/543617080

Josh Sawyer of Obsidian put it as perfectly as anyone can. If you don't agree with him, I don't care. But it may make me think you need your head checked.

And to anyone calling Diablo or Zelda RPGs, you ARE idiots. Diablo is a dungeon crawler, even Blizzard labels it that, and calls it a subgenre of adventure games. And Zelda is an adventure game, except for Zelda 2, which is a barely passable 'jrpg.'

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Seriously can people just fuck off about this.

Not to single you out Glade, but what makes people so upset about this? I really would like to know. It's just a thing a guy said.

It's just the blatant unfounded hate of JRPGs on this forum as well. Fair enough a lot of people do dislike them for good reasons as they aren't their cup of tea but you can't have 1 thread without someone quoting Yahtzee's phrase androgynous teens. I wonder if half the people know what androgynous means without googling it and quoting Yahtzee does not make a point more valid. While I know you shouldn't feed the trolls it just completely irks me when a company does this. Even though it was kinda funny at first BC2 shouldn't really be slagging MW2 in the game!!

Another example would be the MW2 Dedicated server thing where even the authors of news on this site started taking shots at PC gamers. Even one of them who done an article on Color Blind people having trouble playing MW2 took a shot at PC gamers albeit a very subtle one. I found that to be quite funny and a little ironic since with mods that could of been done by the mod community for free not that I even think Activision or IW have even patched the issue yet.

So yes I shouldn't get so angry about it but I wish Bioware of all people would lay off JRPGs as this isn't the first time they have done something like this. It just seems very childish that they do do this as they are supposed to be a company(to an extent).

 

[traineesword]

RPG stands for Role-playing game right? so if you feel like you are playing a role and you are getting into that role, then it is an RPG. My friend likes to sneak up and put people in neck-grabs from behind, so Metal Gear Solid is a role-playing game for him.
My brother (used to, now he talks down the mike to other COD players, the only game he plays) talks to himself when playing a game, he mimics the charactes voices, pretending they say different (and sometimes funny) things in conversation. is that not a form of role-playing, in games ranging from "timesplitters" to "Ratchet and Clank"?

I am fond of a game called Fire-emblem, it is a turn-based-strategy game (would that be TBS or TBSG?) where the main characters are fixed, but you have a choice of which characters to take into battle (excluding the most main character, who has to be there to lead), sometimes a choice over whether or not to recruit someone and you can choose which characters to train/battle the most and therefore which ones to make incredibly strong.
These sound a lot like 'RPG elements' described in a lot of games, but i would strongly disagree that Fire Emblem is not an RPG.

now i think about it, Resident Evil 4/5 could be considered RPGs... you have a choice of which guns to upgrade, you have the choice to move quickly through the level or stay and look for treasure for a bit. you even at some points get choices as to whether to just run from enemies or to turn around and fight. surely that comes down to role-playing.

The point i'm making is, Role-playing isn't really a genre of game, its more whether you choose to role-play/how you role-play in a game. Calling every character a synonym of "penis" and just following the story of FF1 as close as you can, without diverging for any exploration, would surely make that an action adventure game. Sure, it may have been designed to call the strong warrior by your name and the puffy white mage your most pathetic friend's, but its how you play it/see through the game.


Even by reading through this thread i can see a large difference in opinion of what Role-playing is. some people think its definatly got to include turn-based combat, whilst others think "thats not how i'd fight" and cinclude real-time battling (such as Oblivion/Fallout) is the way of the RPG. I am pretty confident i can stand by what i said, Role-playing isn't a genre of game, its whether the player chooses to or not within a game.

I am pretty sure i could-rename a genre of a couple known "RPG's"...

Oblivion- medieval-real-time-adventure game
Final Fantasy(ies)- Linear-storied(or purpose)-adventure-game

it would be easier for my brain that way, then i know that when RPG is mentioned among a group of friends, they are definatly talking about a rocket-proppelled-grenades

 

[Isendell]

RPG stands for Role-playing game right? so if you feel like you are playing a role and you are getting into that role, then it is an RPG.

OK, once again I had to stop reading two or three sentences into a post. There has already been 11 pages of people making this complete failure in logic before you, so just stop.

 

[Canus]

My brother (used to, now he talks down the mike to other COD players, the only game he plays) talks to himself when playing a game, he mimics the charactes voices, pretending they say different (and sometimes funny) things in conversation. is that not a form of role-playing, in games ranging from "timesplitters" to "Ratchet and Clank"?

Hey, if I mimic voices of the characters on Lost, does that make it roleplaying TV? Or does that make me a person wishing Mystery Science Theater 3000 was still on the air? Admittedly the second one, but you get my point I hope.

 

[theSovietConnection]

Roleplaying isn't about making choices.
It's about putting yourself in the role of a character.
Yes, there are RPG's with choices, but what Bioware is trying to do here is to change the definition. Which apperently is working....

But the problem, as I'm sure has been stated already, is that this is too broad of a definition. Basically everything but Tetris becomes an RPG by that definition.

I think the real thing here isn't to change the definition. I think we need to throw out RPG and JRPG as the genre titles altogether. What do we change it to? I don't know, I couldn't tell you. Probably something along the lines of 'Stat-based games' and 'Choice-based games', I don't know. At the end of the day though, I wish everyone would just shut up because I'm getting sick and tired of the bickering from both sides of the fence.

 

[Feralbreed]

Bioware stating the obvious.

 

[Feralbreed]

this idea makes sense. however even in mass effect 2, problems like this still arise. no matter what happens you still have to fight the collecters and in the first one you have to fight the geth. a true roleplaying game where you make the choices would have allowed you to team up with saren and start ripping the shit out of the alliance. a true rpg game is a game where the developers create a setting, and allow you to do as you please and fill the "role" part of the genre. Say you create your character and youre told of villages being taken over by an evil empire. now a game by bioware would force you to investigate in one of three ways. being a dick, being a nice guy, or somewhere in the middle. a true rpg would say, whatta you wanna do? and then i could choose to go rambo on their asses, try to rally my village to create a militia to fight them off, join the enemy forces for wealth and women in exchange for information or something, or i could run away and hide in a cave. that is an rpg.

Yup, this is an RPG.

It's all about a character YOU created, and different choices that YOU make.

 

[Negdaen]

That's actually a good point. Turned-based adventure gaming might be a better way to describe it.

Turn - Based Adventure Gaming? this could work guys.

The first RPG I ever played was FF 9, to me Oblivion was less of an RPG than FF XIII.

Dude, great I love it. I will adopt that title for all games of the genre. But, I know your point of view was from what you first played. My first RPG was Earthbound and when I found out it's genre it made sense because you were supposed to answer questions and make decisions for Ness. But, in truth, JRPGs really aren't RPGs. There is just no role-playing. In fact, Bioshock could have been a real RPG if they made it less linear and didn't have that twist (you know the one I'm talking about) that defined your character. I call Zelda an adventure game. Same with most RPGs because that's what they are. The title RPG got slapped onto that genre because they were the closest to real RPGs back in the day. The Fallout series and such is an RPG. You play that person, sure you have a bit of your history already mapped out for you, but that's because of your family and where your from, no one in real life can control that. An RPG doesn't need those elements such as leveling and inventory. It just needs the ability of choice that allows you to decide what is going on. And that is different from the games goal. Mainly speaking all games that have any plot needs a goal or there is little reason to play. I personally think the closest thing we get to true RPGs for gaming is MMORPGs. Hell, you can be anything in a freaking MMORPG. And if you can stay in character no one could tell you otherwise.

 

[jamescorck]

I strongly agree with BioWare. You can't argue against them, because they are experts on doing RPG's, that's their thing.

But we don't have to get angry or anything. He is saying that FF XIII is not an RPG. He is not saying that it is a bad game, that's Yahtzee's job.

 

[Knight Templar]

Wow this thread is god-dam crazy.

Now I may be a Bioware fanboy but I don't fully agree with FF13 not being an RPG. My reasoning is that an RPG is a mixture of player agency, customization, loot and stat based game play. Those first two really overlap.
It is why I consider Pokémon to be an RPG (and will continue to do so until a better term is created) and it is why I consider most FF games to be RPG's.

That said they are not very good RPG's, good game yes but not good RPG's.
I am role-playing to the same degree in both MW2 and FF10; the same cannot be said of MW2 and Bladur's Gate 2. If Bioware removed all the stats and gear from the next Mass Effect it may be the best game ever made but it wouldn't really hit all the nots that define an RPG. I would not call it a bad RPG however as I believe that the two most important aspects are that of role playing and the illusion of choice, FF games don't really offer these well.

Many games have RPG elements but not all of these games are RPG's, this muddles the exact meaning behind RPG. Also for those taking this personal remember that RPG isn't a statement of quality it is a description in the same way as calling a house brick.

 

[Darth Caelum]

However If you look into the Care and Detail Bioware normally puts into their games, and compare it to, say, Final Fantasy.

FOR PS3:
One crashes a lot. Requires an install and has large save files. Has many graphical bugs and glitches. Not as many as Bethesda's Oblivion and Fallout 3, but still many.

The other has never crashed on me once. Requires no install and the saves are small. I think they might have had one glitch with the themes that you could earn with the trophies.

Yup, one definitely puts more care and detail into their game than the other. Square is an industry leader when it comes the polish they put into their games.

I'm not quite sure what One is. But i'll take advantage of your Quote to Clarify a few things.
Most of my RPGs are on the 360. Let me put that up first. When i say Detail, i mean the Choices and Modifications you can do to your Character. I don't mean the Graphical Bugs or Glitches.
Also, since i play on the 360, i don't need to install it.

 

[AwesomeNinjaPowers]

Surely FF has been around long enough by now to be it's own genre?

 

[ImprovizoR]

I agree with Bioware. But then again, I'm their ***** and I will buy whatever they try to sell me. I could never get into FF games. I just don't like any of them. They say it's a JRPG but it's kinda closer to Devil May Cry which is an adventure game. I love DMC by the way.

And what's with Mass Effect bashing all of a sudden? We all know ME isn't a standard RPG. It's a 3rd person action RPG, and that concept works amazing in ME and ME2. It's a new genre hybrid and I love it.

 

[Legion]

I also agree with that notion, but the issue is that there is no clear definition on what defines something as an RPG. Borderlands and Bioshock have "RPG elements" but they are merely levelling up systems and upgrades, if they count as RPG elements then the line is a little fuzzy.

Umm, you role-play some aspect of your character in an RPG? I assume that's all you need to qualify a game as such. But yea, you don't do that in FF. Least of all in FF13.

Well that's what I think but clearly developers and critics disagree considering the two games I mentioned have "RPG elements" but no role-playing.

 

[Petromir]

FF 13 looks to me to be an adventure game with RPG elements.

ME 2 is a RPG/shooter hybred. In that it has eoguh element of both to count itself in both camps. ME 1 was moer of an RPG in many ways, though ME 2 did improve the choice part by introducing non-verbal cutsceene choices.

Of the recent crop of RPGs Dragon Age is probably the most RPGy, you have more effect on the story than most, your charecter choice has more influence on the story than most, in gerneral you have more fredom than most story based RPGs.

s69-5 your looking at completely different aspects, gameplay/story and bugfinding and polish. Bioware games are filled with loads of different little detailed titbits, many of which are impossible to see in the same playthrough. You replay a bioware game as you can have a different experience each time. FF games you replay for much the same reason you rewatch a movie, the fact its going to be identical doesnt phase you.

 

[asinann]

I honestly think it's more of an interactive novel than an RPG at all.

 

[Jesus Phish]

He raises a very good point.

JPG would be better.

Also there's plenty of role play in Mass Effect to though that say there isn't. To say theyre just about stats? Football games have stats. Are football games now RPGs?

Manipulatable stats that effect the ability of your character. Also, I wouldn't identify RPGs under the terms of the moral choice system that Bioware incorporates into their games because Bioshock, Infamous and Heavy Rain all had decisions that effected the game (or atleast the ending in Bioshock) but I wouldn't consider those RPGs.

Neither would I. Bioshock is an FPS, but if you look around you'll see reviewers adding in "with an RPG element of moral decisions".

For a game to be more RPG than anything else for me, is moral choices, character creation and character progression. Mass Effect 1+2 DA:O, Kotor, NWN, these all tick these boxes, all be it some have more depth in different elements than others.

 

[Con Carne]

Maybe that's a big reason why I felt disappointed and a little dead inside while playing that game!