Bioware...*sigh*
- Thread starter dolgion
- Start date
Recommended Videos
To all the people who are tired of hearing complaints about Bioware:
It's not that the complainers are just whining out of nostalgia. Not at all. It's that Bioware has been, game by game, changing their style. They were the darlings of RPG fans, took and used that trust to sell them games that (while still good games on their own) really weren't what they were wishing for while telling them "There you go. That's the future of RPGs! You will like it!".
Well, after playing game after game, I can clearly say "NO I DON'T", and BG2 happens to be the best role-playing that they ever released. And no, it's not the nostalgia. There's a reason why the hate overboiled at the release of DA2, and it's not just DA2.
It's not that the complainers are just whining out of nostalgia. Not at all. It's that Bioware has been, game by game, changing their style. They were the darlings of RPG fans, took and used that trust to sell them games that (while still good games on their own) really weren't what they were wishing for while telling them "There you go. That's the future of RPGs! You will like it!".
Well, after playing game after game, I can clearly say "NO I DON'T", and BG2 happens to be the best role-playing that they ever released. And no, it's not the nostalgia. There's a reason why the hate overboiled at the release of DA2, and it's not just DA2.
I had the biggest laugh I've had in years when you mentioned Ultima 7, if that game was made today by Bioware it'd be the most expensive entertainment product development in history and take over a decade to make. Your understanding of the work required to create such products is almost insulting and if they actually did what you wanted they'd be out of business.
To the OP:
Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Kotor were (please hear me out before throwing a Maximized Fireball) not that great. Not compared to what we have now.
Both you and I and many other people remember them as being so great, but that was because we formed that idea long ago when an RPG's competion was a bunch of now forgotten titles, Arcanum(which has been forgotten by many), and the early Fallout series.
As an experiment I had some of my younger cousins who played Mass Effect and DAO play Baldur's Gate 2. They didn't like it, not because of the crappy graphics but because the game was too slow to them and the character portraits next to the dialog did nothing for them.
Nostalgia is great but those games aren't as impressive today as they were then.
As for DA2: the Beatles and Spielberg have had their dim bulbs. One screw up doesn't make a pattern.
Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Kotor were (please hear me out before throwing a Maximized Fireball) not that great. Not compared to what we have now.
Both you and I and many other people remember them as being so great, but that was because we formed that idea long ago when an RPG's competion was a bunch of now forgotten titles, Arcanum(which has been forgotten by many), and the early Fallout series.
As an experiment I had some of my younger cousins who played Mass Effect and DAO play Baldur's Gate 2. They didn't like it, not because of the crappy graphics but because the game was too slow to them and the character portraits next to the dialog did nothing for them.
Nostalgia is great but those games aren't as impressive today as they were then.
As for DA2: the Beatles and Spielberg have had their dim bulbs. One screw up doesn't make a pattern.
@Dolgion Alrighty, I see where you're coming from in terms of the AI, but in the end, that seems such a damn nitpicky thing to the rest of us. With that sort of mindset with the AI going in every direction like a fireworks convention gone askew renders us unable to have a definitive and finely crafted story. It seems like a great idea, until you realize all the sort of effort they use to make that they could spend doing the other things, like making sure the combat's good, the player's stance works correctly with the environment (I will NEVER like Fallout/Oblivion/whatever's kludgey navigation) flow of story, music implementation, making sure the controls not only work but are satisfactory, etc. What you suggest takes loads of time to do with various programmers, having to individualize every single person and so on.
But doing that makes those in more recent games that shine and stand out just kinda glare with everyone else. Would HK-47 be that awesome if he had 68 freaking brothers that all act in various ways? Sure it would feel realistic, but we'd never care that much for a Meatbag hater if that happened. What about The Black Whirlwind? Garrus Vakarian? They make such excellent characters because that's what Bioware is wanting to do. They're making memorable characters, instead of spending time trying to make every single person a functional choose-dis-line-dis-happens. What you're suggesting goes more along the lines of a simulation with the vast developer tools taken away from the player just about. Granted it CAN be done... it's an idea, a massive time sink for those who have the time. But nowadays, people kinda... want to get on with it. Again, not saying the playerbase for timesinks suddenly became nonexistent, nor that there's games that no longer do that...
Hell I could argue in return that that man who gets drunk every evening suddenly wins the lottery, he could go live a new life, having his way every night. Maybe his wife doesn't leave him, maybe he tracks you down and ends you while you sleep, these are mostly very base things to result in but... again, developer time, money, sanity.
So yeah, there's games where you can possibly do everything under the sun should you feel it. But Bioware makes stories that are polished, functional, and work great in the way that they do. Do they just half-ass it and your teammates teleport around and never contribute? Okay, well, maybe only when you're not looking but still. The deepness of the universe is there if you look for it, with backstory and everything. But procedural AI in a finely crafted storyline?
To quote the Fonz, "It's like peanut butter and ketchup... both great on their own, but together..."
But doing that makes those in more recent games that shine and stand out just kinda glare with everyone else. Would HK-47 be that awesome if he had 68 freaking brothers that all act in various ways? Sure it would feel realistic, but we'd never care that much for a Meatbag hater if that happened. What about The Black Whirlwind? Garrus Vakarian? They make such excellent characters because that's what Bioware is wanting to do. They're making memorable characters, instead of spending time trying to make every single person a functional choose-dis-line-dis-happens. What you're suggesting goes more along the lines of a simulation with the vast developer tools taken away from the player just about. Granted it CAN be done... it's an idea, a massive time sink for those who have the time. But nowadays, people kinda... want to get on with it. Again, not saying the playerbase for timesinks suddenly became nonexistent, nor that there's games that no longer do that...
Hell I could argue in return that that man who gets drunk every evening suddenly wins the lottery, he could go live a new life, having his way every night. Maybe his wife doesn't leave him, maybe he tracks you down and ends you while you sleep, these are mostly very base things to result in but... again, developer time, money, sanity.
So yeah, there's games where you can possibly do everything under the sun should you feel it. But Bioware makes stories that are polished, functional, and work great in the way that they do. Do they just half-ass it and your teammates teleport around and never contribute? Okay, well, maybe only when you're not looking but still. The deepness of the universe is there if you look for it, with backstory and everything. But procedural AI in a finely crafted storyline?
To quote the Fonz, "It's like peanut butter and ketchup... both great on their own, but together..."
The major difference being the lack of legions of fans fellating those companies.Silent Biohazard Solid said:
It's "okay" to knock Final Fantasy, or bash EA's practices. Bioware's almost as sacred as ZOMGVALVEILOVEUSTEEEEEEEEAM.
OK, I'm really starting to get fucking sick of this. All BioWare is doing is adapting to the dynamic games world. You may prefer you fuzzy little classic RPGs, and the change may scare you, but this does not make them bad games. The writing is still great (better, even) and although they may have some flaws, they're a hell of a lot better than the games of old (yes, I have played through Baldur's gate 2 and KOTOR, and I still prefer Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age). You can call me a dull console gamer, but this is not true. Maybe if you stop cowering away from the change for a few seconds, you'll actually find that these are great games. Stop letting your nostalgia blind you.
Also, DA2 may have some really really stupid design flaws, but most of the characters are great at least)
Also, BioWare still puts writing and character development over all, which allows them to tower over studios like Bungie and Epic.
EDIT: You know what? this guy say is better than I do: http://social.bioware.com/forum/Dragon-Age-II/Dragon-Age-II-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-allowed/Your-Errant-Narcissism---A-Defense-of-Dragon-Age-2-6616604-1.html
Also, DA2 may have some really really stupid design flaws, but most of the characters are great at least)
Also, BioWare still puts writing and character development over all, which allows them to tower over studios like Bungie and Epic.
EDIT: You know what? this guy say is better than I do: http://social.bioware.com/forum/Dragon-Age-II/Dragon-Age-II-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-allowed/Your-Errant-Narcissism---A-Defense-of-Dragon-Age-2-6616604-1.html
I own, but never played Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale II. I got them well after their release date, and I found controlling six characters and navigating tiny hallways, dealing with pathing issues too annoying. I missed regenerating health too, because resting repeatedly is tedious.Sober Thal said:
One of these days, I intended to play them, and the Baldur's Gates with the difficulty down low. Hopefully I won't need to worry about party management as much.
Try to finish Baldur's Gate 1, if not, give II a shot because it starts off quite well, putting you right in the middle of things (and it's better overall). If you don't like them, I doubt Icewind Dale is your thing, it's mostly more of the same.
Planescape is still worth checking out, much more focused on character and dialogue and less on outdated combat conventions.
I liked the Neverwinter games, but I found both the original and second expansions (Hordes of the Underdark) ramp the difficulty to a stupid degree in the home stretch. Mainly putting you in situations where some classes are massively hurt and some barely affected. For example in Underdark, you can backstab pretty much everything right until the final boss. Huge handicap, no warning.
It plays a fair bit like KotOR, but with more magic. Has a faster pace than Baldur's Gate or Icewind, but not as good overall as Baldur's Gate. I wouldn't call it an essential, but worth checking out if your a fan of the genre.
first of all, they dont just 'get the franchise', they were probably paid to make the game as im pretty sure bioware didn't have a publisher at that time. bioware barely had a name for itself then and lucas went with a different company to make the sequel.loremazd said:
besides, i never said "bioware used to make games out of the goodness of their hearts", so way to make up your own context from my post. I said, its simliar to how pixar works, they make movies that interest them, so they end up as interesting films, and make money from THAT, and NOT "well lets just copy someone else because we aren't really designers anymore".
why do you think the new star wars game is an MMO?
why was mass effect 2 gameplay ripped straight from gears of war?
why is DA2 combat and art style copied from wow/diablo/others?
because they can't think for themselves anymore and feel obligated to market their games to the "everyman" which we all should know by now that there is no "everyman" so you just end up with a watered down product that no one can really relate too.
It wouldn't be if they just stopped putting all their capacities into making everything cinematic and with super HD graphics. But that wouldn't be profitable would it. There's a trade-off. Would you prefer advanced AI for NPCs so that they have complex underlying social systems, or would you want more shiny graphics? Because making all these graphic assets (models etc) costs a lot of development time, and therefore money.seditary said:
KotOR, ME, and ME 2 are three of my top 10 favourite games ever and I really enjoyed DA:O(Haven't played DA2) and I can't remember a game that I have anticipated more then ME3. The last I checked most people feel the same way(though, judging by the comments, not many on the Escapist). So I don't think I live in your world where Bioware sucks.
I disagree, honestly I think your points are simply projecting your specific situation in place of "RPG fans". Rpg fans are an extremely diverse mashup of very, very differing tastes. I will tell you that the market does not want crpgs anymore. It simply wont support itself anymore, and there are many, many bankrupt companies that will tell you the same. It is a bit sad for you, but those who do not adapt, die.dolgion said:
That isn't to say that DA2 doesn't have flaws, but I think this is simply a topic dedicated to affirming your own feeling.
So no, you aren't being nostalgic, and you aren't being whiny, but you really aren't going to get a consensus on your point because your point is flawed. BG:2 is -not- everyone's best rpg, and Bioware isn't playing on the trust of all rpg fans because of this. Like it or not, the games they make are role playing games, and liked by rpg fans, but not all of them, because people have differing tastes.
First of all, EA is the one who blocked users' access to their copy of DA2.
Second, other than DA2, which games don't you like? They had a flop, but calling for them to "admit that they can't make games anymore" because of one hate it or love it game is just jumping the gun.
Second, other than DA2, which games don't you like? They had a flop, but calling for them to "admit that they can't make games anymore" because of one hate it or love it game is just jumping the gun.
Are we talking about the same Bioware here? Every list I look up of best computer RPG's has Baldur's Gate II in the top 3, usually at the very top and often with no mention of the first game. Not to mention Mass Effect 2, which is by far more critically and user revered than its predecessor. Just because you don't like DA2 doesn't lessen the quality of their other installments or franchises. I happen to like certain aspects of DA2 better than Origins. Most people seem to disagree with me, but I won't let that take away from my enjoyment of what I consider a great game. If any other developer had made DA2, it would be hailed as a landmark. True it's not quite up to Bioware standards in many regards, but I think we all need to remember just how high that standard is and that every once in a while they're not quite going to make the next "best game ever".Mcoffey said:
Oh come on, it hasn't been that way for very long. I still remember when FFXII came out, and legions of rabid Final Fantasy fanboys and fangirls attacked me for knocking it. Same with Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus. God forbid I should say something bad about them.Zachary Amaranth said:
I honestly don't think it was until FFXIII came out that somehow, those rabid fanboys finally opened their freakin eyes. And honestly, the only reason I think it happened was because a lot of them ended up spending over $300 on it (buying the PS3 just for it), which really put things in perspective for them.
But okay, maybe people should stop riding Bioware's crotch then. They were once one of the best companies to work FOR because of how well they treated their employees. (I don't think that's the case anymore, since EA took over.) But they've always been a developer, with flaws like any other developer. And like I said, as franchises, Mass Effect and Dragon Age both kick ass.
So you're saying Micky D's serves food? Because Mass Effect 2 is absolutely an RPG, and saying otherwise is just pure nonsense. RPGs are not defined by having mountainous and unintuitive inventory management systems you have to visit between each level to sell or melt down boatloads of crap items you picked up and tons of level up boxes that don't actually do anything noticeable unless you put 3 points in them at once. But I guess some people aren't happy with their RPGs unless they get to spend half their time with the game on the pause screen managing items and other nonsense instead of playing. That's fine. Just stop with the BS "THIS ISN'T AN RPG!!!" rabble already.Weofparadigm said:
Not at all. I wouldn't play them if they didn't have a good story. For example, I love Mass Effect. But if you just want a shooter, there's better ones out there. It's the narrative with the gameplay that punctuates it that make Bioware games appealing.mireko said:
Spot on. I grew up playing PnP D&D (preferred Chaosium games, but D&D is the gold standard). The thing is, so much of the mechanics were designed for a different medium than videogames. Computer RPGs are videogames, and they work best when playing on the strengths of that medium. Would we really want to see the die roll results of each attack? KoToR was close to that at times, down to turn based combat. In a way, it was a perfect animation of an old style RPG. But speaking for myself, I preferred Mass Effect with the integration of action games into an RPG format.mireko said:
I'm not sure mechanics are what makes an RPG, and props to Bioware for trying new things even if they occasionally hit a sour note. There's a lot of hate about DA2, but I suspect even the haters would admit (well, maybe not) that *aspects* of that game applied to future games would be a good thing.
Meh... I'm fine with Bioware making more action games with RPG elements. Hence, why I still love Mass Effect 2. You just accept that this isn't a pure RPG but a mixture of different genres.
However,I simply can't justify the atrocity that's Dragon Age II. The writing, the setting, the gameplay... just horrible.
But hey... one bad Bioware games isn't the end of the world.
However,I simply can't justify the atrocity that's Dragon Age II. The writing, the setting, the gameplay... just horrible.
But hey... one bad Bioware games isn't the end of the world.