BLARGH! I IS EVIL!: Villains who were not well fleshed out

[Scobie]

DELETED

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Sovereign from Mass Effect. When asked why he's doing it, he responds that his motives are too complex for puny Commander Shepard to comprehend. Kind of redeemed with Saren, however.

Actually I always thought that the Sovereign and all the others of its kind are essentially trying to rip on the Lovecraftian mythos. A race of beings that exsist in the furthest reaches of space, have existed since before all life, and (supposedly) created themselves. Now that's original (not). Actually though it is a bit esoteric, so I doubt very many would actually make the connection.
EDIT: On that subject I always thought that the Elder Gods of the H.P. Lovecraft novellas were horribly characterized. The official reason for this was that their motivations were so complex that upon hearing the first 1/4 of the full reason for why they were so weird a humans mind would explode in a manner resembling this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEHU7Nv_alE .
However the more obvious reason is that Lovecraft probably couldn't think of any reason himself.

Or it could be that whole "being horribly alien" shtick. Lovecraft's monsters are supposed to be incomprehensible and mysterious. Giving them concrete motives could take away from their mystique. I thought it was an attempt to make them more interesting. Whether it works or not is another matter (I never actually read any of this stuff so I can't comment).

And yeah, the Reapers are fairly cosmic-horrory. I thought their lack of motivation kind of let the last part of the game down, but hopefully it'll be better explained in the sequel.

Actually I was more or less talking out of my ass at that point. I don't really think that they were poorly characterized, I was mainly jumping on the "villians need motives" bandwagon, and secondly looking for any reason posible to put that video into my comment.

 

[Verp]

What's Bowser's deal, anyway? Why would he want to kidnap Princess Peach? We've all heard the theories (Bowser Jr. had to come from somewhere...), but nothing is ever expressly mentioned to motivate a giant turtle to kidnap one of five human characters in the Mushroom Kingdom.

Well, it's not like it's the best excuse on the planet, but if you believe some of the things mentioned in the RPG's and Super Mario Galaxy, Bowser wants her to rule the world by his side. He also might have a princess fetish and he might want to get in her knickers, which is an absolutely horrifying thought if you know a thing or two about tortoise anatomy.

In regards to Kefka, he doesn't need a motivation. He's insane.

That's a poor excuse. Consider reading an article or two on various mental illnesses and their symptoms and then look at how believable some of the villains in the generic "insane" variety are, the kind who have no motive beyond being a sadistic cackling madman. And even if you're not interested, do keep in mind that writers should be able to understand their characters at least on some level. It's okay to mystify and leave things to imagination, but if you don't understand or care about those things yourself, it's highly probable that the receiving end will catch on.

 

[JoshasorousRex]

Galbatorix from Eragon.

"Why would he do such a thing?"

"Because he is evil."

Yay for one-dimensional characters!

Spoiler: Rant about Galbatorix's alledged evilness

I mean, come on! The guy's never seen, and everyone says he's evil incarnate. For all we know he isn't!

Let's look at his evil deeds:

1, Kill the Dragon Riders.
So? They were 'corrupt and fought amongst themselves.' All he did was join in on the fun, be the best there is, and win. Now he's the bad guy and mad to boot? Riiiight.

2, The Empire is evil and bad, and war rages.
The war the REBELS STARTED. Without them, Galby could go and manage his Empire without distractions.

3, He killed dragons and enslaved them!
Comes with killing the dragon-riders. Why let that power go to waist when you can do some good with it after you slew them in a fit of madness. Seems pretty good to me, as would any normal human being.

OK

Spoiler: Hidden counter arguement because else we would have major quotage

1: He killed the Dragon Riders because they would not grant him a new dragon when his died so he used dark magic to make a Dragon his. The other Dragon Riders were not corrupt and didn't fight amongst themselves. He managed to get the For Swarm (or whatever the traitors are called) together and they killed all the Dragon Riders

2: After the war he took over Alagaesia and went after the elves and dwarfs. He had the Urgls and a shade (I believe) to spread terror across the land, killing people and using them to bring pain to the people.

3: He made the other Dragon Riders swear loyalty to him. You see once you kill the rider the dragon dies with it's rider so he couldn't have enslaved them. I don't know what you mean by enslaving them but like I said, when the rider dies the Dragon goes with him.

Yuss! Counter-Arguements.

Spoiler: Counterance of Counter Arguements

1. He killed them because of a grudge, and they were not corrupt.

I disagree. Yes he killed them because of a grudge, but also for other reasons. Murtaugh and Galby himself said that the old riders were being controlled by elves, doing their bidding and not being the watchers like they should have been. This was probably because so damn many of them were elvish.

2, He used beasts to 'spread terror across the land.

Meh, I haven't seen much terror yet. Only thing from the Urgals was Yazuac (I don't know the spelling) and that was done by the Urgals. There was no evidence that they were under the control of Galby, nor that he had any hand in the attack. The only possible thing what could've been seen as terror spreading was ordering Murtaugh to set that village on fire who protected rebels. Seems fine to me, they help the rebels, they die.

The Shade wasn't really under the control of Galby. Sure, they proclaimed that he was but he still tried to convince Eragon to swear loyalty to the shade instead of the king. Durza was acting by his own agenda, and only did as much for the king as he did because he didn't want to get killed.

3, I can't sum this up in one sentance, so I'll just answer it

Spoiler: Third book plot point spoilage

I meant the Eldunari. The 'heart of hearts' of the Dragons. They harbored the mind, energy and conciousness of the dragon, even after the body died, they could live on in the gem-like organs. Galby is seen evil because he enslaved the Eldunari after the Dragons did, he collected them and gained unlimited power. And that seemed right to me. When you slay your foes, use their energy for greater purposes.

Now, something I'd like to say:

Christopher is a moderate writer, in my opinion, but he could have done this from the start. He planned this 'heroic view' on Eragon and hide the fact that he is a sociopathic murderer. If he, in the finalé of the final book, showed that Galby is the sane rider, and Eragon suffers from madness (That is why the Varden let him do what he did, they fear a mad rider) that would be an awesome plot-twist.

Wait am I missing something here? And if the spoiler boxes fail this is my first time trying them.

Spoiler: More Counters! Somewhat

1: I'm not sure about the elves controlling the Dragon Riders part. I've never read anything about that so yeah...

2: The Urgals were under Durza's control (I think) Ok so Durza wasn't exactly under Glaby's control but he still did his bidding (to some extent) The Rebels think he is evil because of the hostile take over he did. Killing all the Dragon Riders then taking over the rest of the land. Tou starting to convince me he isn't as evil as he is shown to be

3:

Spoiler: Third Book Parts

I thought you were talking about the actual Dragons themselves and not their hearts. This isn't really a counter argument and this one I can agree on.

You sir win and have convinced me Galby isn't so evil. You deserve a cookie. And when does the next book come out?

 

[Mordwyl]

In regards to Kefka, he doesn't need a motivation. He's insane.

That's a poor excuse. Consider reading an article or two on various mental illnesses and their symptoms and then look at how believable some of the villains in the generic "insane" variety are, the kind who have no motive beyond being a sadistic cackling madman. And even if you're not interested, do keep in mind that writers should be able to understand their characters at least on some level. It's okay to mystify and leave things to imagination, but if you don't understand or care about those things yourself, it's highly probable that the receiving end will catch on.

I suppose I haven't actually explained myself properly. Kefka had volunteered to be the first MagiTek knight prototype, which unfortunately had succeeded in not only giving him magical abilities but turn him mentally unstable. As far as a thirst for power goes, considering he offered himself in a dangerous experiment with no regard of potential side effects I'd say he's pretty willing to take risks to get what he wants.

Honestly though, when did villains require to be Sephiroth to be good villains? Kefka is a misanthropic man who has eventually masterminded his way to godhood. While he had no deep backstories and tear-inducing flashbacks you get to know the character as you play the game considering he's a constant threat to you, unlike some villains who pretty much wait for the heroes to kick their ass.

Giving too much depth to a villain they risk crossing the line to anti-hero if their motivations are justified (Dhaos wants to save his home planet), or anti-villain if they're doing evil for the sake of greater good (Arthas during the purge of Stratholme comes to mind).

 

[Eatbrainz]

Mr. Burke from Fallout 3, he seems like such a badass character, from shooting Lucas Simms in the back to rewarding the player for coldly blowing up a town full of people, he is awesome. i would have preferred it if there were more quests with him involved, especially some assassination missions, seeing as how his voice actor was Lucien Lachance from Oblivion who brings you into The Dark Brotherhood and gives some fun stealth missions and killer weapons.

 

[Jon Etheridge]

Darth Maul. Seriously, 2 lines and a red lightsaber doesn't qualify you as a good bad guy.

 

[Mr.PlanetEater]

I don't know there's the Cardboard Evil which never get's explained, beyond they want to. But then there's the almost identical Cartoon Evil that get's explained with They Want just want to enslave everyone because they feel like they have nothing better to do. Which I think is were villains like Dr. Wily fall under, they're so retarded in their evil schemes that you can't help but laugh. Now as for Cardboard Scarecrow, all they made his back story about was "Insane Psychiatrist (sounds ironic when you think about.) who goes so bat-shit insane he then proceeds to make everyone else a walking looney." :/

 

[titanium turtle]

Kane from C&C

his masterplan is fucking ridiculous

 

[Merteg]

Naruto always gets bashed for telling the enemies back stories and motivations too much. Heh, I rather like it. And besides, Naruto, the charismatic stallion, usually convinces the enemy that their way is bad. Like he did to ~OMFG SPOILERS~ Pain.

Anyway, a two dimensional villain? The Nazi Zombies from Call of Duty. Why the Hell did those Nazis/Japanese soldiers turned into zombies?

 

[ajb924]

Arlong from One Piece. I understand he wanted to take over a town, but why a little tiny poor one with no exports!? It's not like he couldn't take over something bigger, so why didn't he!?

I suppose he was afraid that if he conquered something bigger the Marines or someone else who's powerful might come after him. After all, he's certainly not the most powerful guy of all, so it's better to stick with something small, which doesn't have any exports the cutting off of which might motivate others to act.

I had thought of that, but when you look into it it doesn't make sense, he had bribed one of the navy officers and had him on his side, who says he couldn't bribe more?

 

[Wildrow12]

Kane from C&C

his masterplan is fucking ridiculous

His plan was to make everyone as bald as he was...right? I didn't really pay attention to
all the hammy acting.

 

[titanium turtle]

Kane from C&C

his masterplan is fucking ridiculous

His plan was to make everyone as bald as he was...right? I didn't really pay attention to
all the hammy acting.

ha lol
- can't really remember- army of cyborgs- blowing up his own temple to get aliens to invade earth so he can go through a portal into space with his cyborg buddies
also why the fuck is he so bothered with stealing the ion cannon when he has a massive amount of fucking nukes
and also he wants the earth to be covered in tiberium because..... it's... eerem......... shiny

and "the brotherhood of nod" is a crap evil cult army name
and also he is somehow immortal

 

[Tri Force95]

Isn't this thread full of reasons why a super soldier program is a bad idea?

Kefka. Prototype. Gears. Umbrella Corp.

The only time that ended well was with Captain America.

I don't really have a choice, do I?

"You never know what someone will do with power, until you give it to them." -Harry Dresden, from the Dresden Files

The Dresden Files is incredible.

The books? Yes, yes they are. The tv show, however, not that great, but not bad.

 

[Verp]

-snip-
Honestly though, when did villains require to be Sephiroth to be good villains? Kefka is a misanthropic man who has eventually masterminded his way to godhood. While he had no deep backstories and tear-inducing flashbacks you get to know the character as you play the game considering he's a constant threat to you, unlike some villains who pretty much wait for the heroes to kick their ass.

Giving too much depth to a villain they risk crossing the line to anti-hero if their motivations are justified (Dhaos wants to save his home planet), or anti-villain if they're doing evil for the sake of greater good (Arthas during the purge of Stratholme comes to mind).

On the other hand, while trying to avoid putting effort to a villain or to evade the possibility that the audience relates to the villain, you can very easily make a stub of a character who has had all recogniseable personality beyond EEBUL amputated so it most closely resembles a verbally offensive force of nature that has bias towards people and draws inspiration from Satan. And it goes "BWA HA HA HA, YOO PUNY HYOOMANS" every time it runs down a town.

Kefka wasn't entirely like that, but still closer to that than a fleshed out villain. To me, he was rarely anything but a plot device to keep the plot moving and an occasional quirky moment where he said something funny. Then shit happened: suddenly he went god mode and I stopped caring because he pretty much stopped existing until the last match. Sure he was looming ominously somewhere in the distance, but not like the Moon in Majora's Mask which hardly even really did anything but sat in the sky looking a bit mean. Yet, it was more threatening to me than Kefka ever was. I mean, goddamn, the guy had a somewhat interesting religious following but it was given just about as much significance as Hidon, the meh monster out of nowhere.

None of this, of course, would be much of a problem to me if the game hadn't relied on its story so heavily.

 

[Strategia]

I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here and ask if any of you who are complaining have ever tired to come up with villain for story yourselves? 'Cause if not, I don't think you have the right to criticize. After all, I imagine these writers are under enough pressure as it is without us fans bitching. Again I'm reminded of what Yahtzee says ad-nausium, about fans being clinging complaining dipshits etc. etc.

I'm just saying keep in mind that it's easy to sit back and *****, whine, and complain when you're not the one who has to tirelessly come up with new and interesting villains for the heroes to fight time and time again to please the endless hordes of unreleasable fans who're never happy no matter what you do, ie us.

I think people do have a right to criticise poorly constructed villains, for the same reason, to butcher a Yahtzee quotation, a diner is allowed to criticise the restaurant when they put dog turds in his soup.

It doesn't matter what they do, 'Empires' are always evil.

Not the Napoleonic empire or the Souperplex empire.

Napoleon's empire may not have been evil as such, but he was in the habit of arbitrarily handing out noble titles and random estates to people he liked, and near the end he imposed ever heavier laws and restrictions. He wasn't evil, but he wasn't good either - and he basically IS one of these many poorly constructed villains who just want to take over the world for the sake of taking over the world. Yes, he did bring enlightenment and revolutionairy ideals to the lands he conquered, but then he flaunted those ideals and instituted a fairly repressive government.

Kane from C&C

his masterplan is fucking ridiculous

Kane is (in my view) suffering from religious delusions, actually believing himself to be the Messiah and viewing Tiberium as mankind's salvation. He's like those cult leaders that later go on to commit mass suicide with their cult, only Kane is more prone to mass murder than to suicide. Also, the man himself is also somewhat mysterious, and it's unclear WHAT he actually is - as you pointed out, he appears to be immortal, considering the fact that (IIRC) somewhere between thirty and fifty years elapse between Tiberian Dawn (the first C&C game) and the god-awfully-named Tiberium Wars (a.k.a. C&C3). Add to that his appearance in the first Red Alert, at least forty or fifty years before Tiberian Dawn, with no significant changes in physical appearance. (However, the Red Alert appearance was later retconned as a "mistake" and a "poor decision" by the designers.)

 

[Chimichanga]

Even though I love Rick Veitch's 'The Brat Pack', and especially it's core "antagonist" (Compared to the comic's 'heroes', he's possibly the only 'good guy') Dr. Blasphemy, I've never really been able to figure out if he keeps killing them because of personal reasons, or if they were merely cold steps to his greater plan.

Still, Dr. Blasphemy is still my favorite villain of all time so far.


Live fast, love hard, die with your mask on!

*EDIT* Mostly because there was no back story. Everything about him personally is pretty much just an assumption.

 

[Big shiny red button]

the good evil debate is Bleh. you cant make a concrete line between them, theres always huge overlap. its dependent on the moral values of an individual, not set in stone.