Blizzard Hits WoW Gold Sellers in the Wallet

Recommended Videos

TechNoFear

New member
Mar 22, 2009
446
0
0
Garak73 said:
1) Copyright infringement is not theft.
If you comprehended what I actually wrote you would understand this was the point I was making.

It is impossible for a car manufacturer to sue a customer for copyright infringement (for 'pirating' their product).

Garak73 said:
2) Where do you suppose gold sellers get gold to sell? Do they not get it by playing the game? If so, then how are they NOT customers?
The gold seller on PayPal is not a customer of Blizzard.

Garak73 said:
3) Ok, how about non MMO's? What if Microsoft decided to erase or alter your save file for Halo Reach because "it's their property" as is the XBOX 360 and the game itself. How does your rent theory work there?
This thread is about MMOs. How about we stick to the topic, instead of rambling off into hypothetical discussions?

How does MS delete a file on my harddrive?

If the file is stored on an MS server, then you 'rent' server access.

Game companies routinely modify game save files, to fix bugs. No one complains then...

When was the last time you car company 'updated' your car to the latest version?

Clearly there are signifigant differences between digital ('infinite') goods and hardware ('scarce') goods.

It is therefore appropritate that they are covered by different laws.
 

TechNoFear

New member
Mar 22, 2009
446
0
0
Baresark said:
You shouldn't throw around terms like "infinite goods". Those do not actually exist. Scarcity can reach as low as humanly conceivable, but nothing is infinite. The cost of accessing a webpage can be almost nothing, but it can never be nothing.
I did not refer to the cost of creation or reproduction ie 'free' or 'no cost'.

I did refer to the availability ie that digital goods can be 'infinitely' reproduced.

Try reading about the economics of abundancy and scarcity.
 

Lyri

New member
Dec 8, 2008
2,660
0
0
sleeky01 said:
BECAUSE OF THE WEBSITE THE PURCHASE WAS MADE FROM. Seriously there are thousands. and if the root of the purchase is "getyourwowgoldhere.com" or whatever its not hard to to tell. Aside from that, even digital products come with a receipt of what is being bought.
Unless you re-direct that WoW gold purchase to another website selling...I don't know...cheap electronic items, and THEN contact Paypal.

Not hard to get around.[/quote]

So that's when the complains to paypal that the seller didn't give you your goods you agreed on.
Easy customer case to get money back.
 

TechNoFear

New member
Mar 22, 2009
446
0
0
Garak73 said:
Something that can be infinitely reproduced has no value.
'Value' is not only dependent on scarcity.

Air is not scarce, but it is clear to anyone who has tried going without air that air has a value....
 

Gindil

New member
Nov 28, 2009
1,621
0
0
Canid117 said:
Gindil said:
Blizzard is absolutely full of crap on this one.

I'm going to believe that more than likely this will hurt their fanbase a lot more than they know. There were probably other ways to do this but by enforcing this on Paypal, it's going to have severe repercussions on them.
Please explain to me how exactly this is going to hurt legitimate customers as apposed to gold sellers?
guardian001 said:
Gindil said:
Blizzard is absolutely full of crap on this one.

I'm going to believe that more than likely this will hurt their fanbase a lot more than they know. There were probably other ways to do this but by enforcing this on Paypal, it's going to have severe repercussions on them.
In what way would this hurt the fan base? Anybody who isn't buying or selling gold won't be affected...
danpascooch said:
Gindil said:
Blizzard is absolutely full of crap on this one.

I'm going to believe that more than likely this will hurt their fanbase a lot more than they know. There were probably other ways to do this but by enforcing this on Paypal, it's going to have severe repercussions on them.
Why? It's only hurting people who sell gold.

I think this is a good idea, of course it's not going to stop gold selling, but I wouldn't be surprised if it sees at LEAST a 25% drop from this, which is completely worth it.
Daemascus said:
Gindil said:
Blizzard is absolutely full of crap on this one.

I'm going to believe that more than likely this will hurt their fanbase a lot more than they know. There were probably other ways to do this but by enforcing this on Paypal, it's going to have severe repercussions on them.
Right... You do realize that most WoW players dont buy gold and wish the gold sellers would just go away?
Kalezian said:
Im sorry, but until you give some exposition, you just seem like the people that cant find groups, so you resort to gimping by gold farmer.
I did, you didn't read further down the first page. Furthermore, I don't play WoW. But I know enough about it to say what's a good economic decision or not. Now ALL of you in this quote? Read further down the first page and quit quoting that one. I already explained this. Kinda annoying that I write and hope that others will follow the conversation...

bushwhacker2k said:
Gindil said:
Blizzard is absolutely full of crap on this one.

I'm going to believe that more than likely this will hurt their fanbase a lot more than they know. There were probably other ways to do this but by enforcing this on Paypal, it's going to have severe repercussions on them.
I don't use PayPal myself, so I can't see what the exact repercussions are for this, but it DOES seem like this'll annoy some legitimate WoW players.

By that I mean some WoW players might use PayPal to buy actual WoW merchandise, and if all WoW things are off for PayPal then that would go as well, would it not? Maybe I'm just misreading this.

I can understand why they'd wanna off gold-sellers though >_>
True, but they've made a currency of the virtual gold. It happens. But I explained further on the first page.
 

hyzaku

New member
Mar 1, 2010
143
0
0
Invariel said:
In the time that I played World of Warcraft, I never considered buying gold or items. It wasn't a part of the game I wanted to play. However, I don't see how they are "a bane and a parasite" in any way. A gold farmer that actively sits at the machine, playing the game and making gold to sell for effort is simply looking for a way to convert effort into cash, and likewise with an item farmer. Please note that this hypothetical individual is -actively playing- and not botting (which is an entirely different can of worms).

That selling gold or items is "violating Blizzard's intellectual property" is an outlandish claim as well. The sellers are making a trade of realworld currency for in-game equipment that took time (and maybe effort) to acquire. At no point (to my understanding) are people claiming that they made, own, or have any intellectual claim to the gold or items.

What Blizzard should be doing here to combat gold sellers and item sellers is to get into the business. Offer, at the WoW store, the ability to buy 10000 gold for some amount of money, or directly sell the marks required to get the top tier of gear. If necessary, offer gold sales that undercut whatever the underground market can provide. In this scenario, Blizzard -is- the mint - they don't need to worry about sitting around for hours to grind to 85 to fight the profitable monsters. They could, quite easily, cash in on this basic need for better stuff and kill the gold farmer market in the process - their prices don't have to pay anyone's salaries.
For one thing, a lot of gold and items sold for real money are stolen from hacked/compromised accounts. So yeah that is a very negative thing. Second selling gold is against the ToS. It is plain and simple not legal. As for Blizz selling gold, holy crud that would be terrible. You cannot balance a game's economy (among other balancing issues) when people can simply buy as much money as they want. MMO's have to have ways to remove money from the virtual economy to prevent massive inflation and other problems, so allowing a massive influx of in-game currency is something Blizz absolutely does not want to have happen.

Also keep in mind that most gold farmers (the ones who actually run characters to get gold and items) are indeed bots and not actual people. That is indeed an issue.

On the note of the ToS I mentioned, you do know that you are technically paying Blizz (your monthly subscription) to access the game and all information linked to your account. To quote the ToS:

"Additional License Limitations.
The license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the ?License Limitations?). Any use of the Service or the Game Client in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard?s copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

A. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;

B. exploit the Game or any of its parts, including without limitation the Service, for any commercial purpose, including without limitation (a) use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site without the express written consent of Blizzard; (b) for gathering in-game currency, items or resources for sale outside the Game; or (c) performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling;..."

and of course:

"#
Ownership.
All rights and title in and to the Service (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, ?applets,? transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games) are owned by Blizzard or its licensors. The Game and the Service are protected by United States and international laws, and may contain certain licensed materials in which Blizzard?s licensors may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.
#
No Ownership Rights in Account.
NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU SHALL HAVE NO OWNERSHIP OR OTHER PROPERTY INTEREST IN ANY ACCOUNT STORED OR HOSTED ON A BLIZZARD SYSTEM, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY BNET ACCOUNT OR WORLD OF WARCRAFT ACCOUNT, AND YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL RIGHTS IN AND TO SUCH ACCOUNTS ARE AND SHALL FOREVER BE OWNED BY AND INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF BLIZZARD. "

To sum that up, you don't even own your account, much less anything on it. All you do is pay Blizz for access to some data they own. So yes that gold those people sell is indeed Blizz's intellectual property and selling it is illegal according to the ToS which you must agree to in order to play the game.

If Blizz wants to slam people in SC2 for hacking achievements (something Microsoft does too btw, though with less legal action usually) because it violates the ToS, you can damn well guarantee they will go after people violating the WoW ToS.

Full Wow ToS can be found here for anyone interested: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html
 

Roadface

New member
Nov 10, 2009
136
0
0
Garak73 said:
TechNoFear said:
Garak73 said:
Something that can be infinitely reproduced has no value.
'Value' is not only dependent on scarcity.

Air is not scarce, but it is clear to anyone who has tried going without air that air has a value....
Air is needed for survival, a video game is not. Not a good comparison.
One way to look at it is that even though these goods are digital and can be infinitely reproduced; you still need to pay for the employment of people qualified to make these digital goods. That's why a career such as theirs is in demand. There are also real world costs in running a business. Whether or not blizzard needs to go to such lengths to protect their IP despite how much money they have is just speculation. It's just a business decision. One that was made either on principle or for greed.

I do agree that something does indeed need to happen. Maybe some laws drafted to protect the consumer. You can't just allow these companies to charge people for the use of digital goods they don't even own. It is a slippery slope argument to say that gaming companies are just going to go around and delete people's save files because they can get away with it. They can for now but given that this is a free market. Eventually another gaming company is going to open up that isn't going to be so harsh and won't just delete their consumer files. Perhaps they will let them own at least a portion of the goods they bought. But won't that make it hard for them to stay competitive? At least this is the justification used by large gaming companies for the how they regard their player base as suspects.
 

Jandau

Smug Platypus
Dec 19, 2008
5,034
0
0
Daemascus said:
Jandau said:
Ummmm... I don't get it. What's this supposed to achieve? As far as I know, opening a new PayPal account isn't particularly hard. So at best, this might turn into a game of whack-a-mole for Blizz, chasing down new accounts all the time. Unless it's a blanket attack against any and all people recieving money for virtual goods in WoW, in which case couldn't they simply not say they are selling stuff in WoW.

Admitedly, I don't know much about how PayPal works and the whole goldselling process (having never partaken in either), but I don't see how this might be anything more than an annoyance to the goldsellers...
Pretty sure its a bit harder for businesses to open paypal accounts. Or something.
Then simply don't say you're a business? Gold selling already finds ways to operate outside law, or at least in a gray area, lying on their PayPal account wouldn't be a stretch.
 

ItsAPaul

New member
Mar 4, 2009
762
0
0
The only way they care where the money's from is between the boss and the people selling gold (and trust me, they have horrible communication problems between departments most of the time). This literally doesn't change a thing.
 

baker80

New member
Oct 17, 2008
102
0
0
The funniest thing about this thread is that people believe Blizzard does this to protect its customers. Blizzard does this to protect its revenue stream, nothing else. Why would you keep grinding (and paying for) Heroics or whatever for months if you can spend half the money and get the stuff right away?

Blizzard's interested in keeping people playing their game, because that's how they make money. Shortcutting the whole process gets them directly in their wallet, which is really the only thing corporations of that size care about.
 

Valksy

New member
Nov 5, 2009
1,279
0
0
I suspect it is just pissing in the ocean.

But hey if it makes one more Johnny Goldbuyer think that using his credit card directly with the sellers is a good idea, and then having to spend weeks unfucking his credit card payments because they stole it from him, then I'm all for it.

Is WOW a bit of a grind, yep. If you don't like it, then don't fucking play.
 

webzu

New member
Jul 31, 2009
62
0
0
Invariel said:
In the time that I played World of Warcraft, I never considered buying gold or items. It wasn't a part of the game I wanted to play. However, I don't see how they are "a bane and a parasite" in any way. A gold farmer that actively sits at the machine, playing the game and making gold to sell for effort is simply looking for a way to convert effort into cash, and likewise with an item farmer. Please note that this hypothetical individual is -actively playing- and not botting (which is an entirely different can of worms).

That selling gold or items is "violating Blizzard's intellectual property" is an outlandish claim as well. The sellers are making a trade of realworld currency for in-game equipment that took time (and maybe effort) to acquire. At no point (to my understanding) are people claiming that they made, own, or have any intellectual claim to the gold or items.

What Blizzard should be doing here to combat gold sellers and item sellers is to get into the business. Offer, at the WoW store, the ability to buy 10000 gold for some amount of money, or directly sell the marks required to get the top tier of gear. If necessary, offer gold sales that undercut whatever the underground market can provide. In this scenario, Blizzard -is- the mint - they don't need to worry about sitting around for hours to grind to 85 to fight the profitable monsters. They could, quite easily, cash in on this basic need for better stuff and kill the gold farmer market in the process - their prices don't have to pay anyone's salaries.
Regrettably if Blizzard would set up the ability to buy the best stuff for low prices, I think a lot of the player base would leave for lack of interest, if you remove the grind from an MMO you essentially have nothing left... If you could buy full best in slot gear and enough gold to max out all secondary professions and 2 primary's and even all the rare mounts and such. Why play more? Nothing is important anymore and the game quickly gets boring and people kill their subscriptions and go do something else.
 

Baresark

New member
Dec 19, 2010
3,908
0
0
TechNoFear said:
Baresark said:
You shouldn't throw around terms like "infinite goods". Those do not actually exist. Scarcity can reach as low as humanly conceivable, but nothing is infinite. The cost of accessing a webpage can be almost nothing, but it can never be nothing.
I did not refer to the cost of creation or reproduction ie 'free' or 'no cost'.

I did refer to the availability ie that digital goods can be 'infinitely' reproduced.

Try reading about the economics of abundancy and scarcity.
The only way a good can be "infinite" is if it has not resource cost at all. That is impossible, therefore they do not exist. An infinite good, has no value at all, so your not really making a good point about anti-piracy. And it certainly is not infinitely reproducible. There are a lot of limitations in the reproductive process that you simply do not see. For instance, there is a limit to broadband capabilities, and there is a limit to amount of data that can be stored on your side of the equation, just to mention a few.
 

Baresark

New member
Dec 19, 2010
3,908
0
0
TechNoFear said:
Garak73 said:
Something that can be infinitely reproduced has no value.
'Value' is not only dependent on scarcity.

Air is not scarce, but it is clear to anyone who has tried going without air that air has a value....
You have brought up the Diamond/Water paradox! I Love when a topic gets this hot and these tangents are made!

That basically states that though one is needed for survival and the other is a luxury item, why are Diamonds universally more valuable than Water. The only logical answer is that Diamonds can be used to buy lots of an item that may be scarce, or may not be scarce, such as water. And it all fits the needs of the present. Go where water is scarce and you will not get a lot of it for your money, go where it is plentiful and it has nearly no value what so ever, so you can buy a whole lot of it with your money.

Cheers. I hope you don't take me as being argumentative, I am only posting about what was said. I do love a good back and forth and consider everyone on this site a friend.
 

Wolfram23

New member
Mar 23, 2004
4,095
0
0
The one thing I regret was not trying to sell gold before I quit. My warrior is sitting pretty with a Mechano Hog (15k), Traveller's Tundra Mammoth (20k) plus an extra 20k in gold and he bought my DK a Mechano Hog... and those are only the big items. Oh well.
 

tendo82

Uncanny Valley Cave Dweller
Nov 30, 2007
1,283
0
0
I think Blizzard should just sell gold to players for a real world fee. I really don't think it would upset the balance of the game that much.

The game works in such a way that time is the key variable determining power in the PVE game. Whoever has the most time to spend raiding, questing, crafting, farming, etc. will ultimately be the most powerful/prestigious in the endgame. I mean what does gold even buy in WoW anymore? The best gear you can buy has to be purchased with JP, VP, HP, Commendations - all currency that cannot be traded and must be earned on a character associated with your account.

At this point I can see illegally gotten gold doing two things in the game: allowing players to skip out on the heroics grinding, power level crafting and maybe buy an epic mount that an unemployed college kid got way before you anyway. It's hard to tell until something's implemented, but my guess would be the game balance would remain largely the same and one of Blizzard's headaches would be swiftly put out of business.