Born gay, Chose to be gay, Can't it be both?

[Dexiro]

Being gay is ever a choice. A straight guy can choose to sleep with men, but if there's no attraction then he's still straight.

I will say that not everyone is born gay though, sometimes other elements factor in such as a persons upbringing.

 

[Valksy]

The homosexual will refuse to admit there attraction to the opposite sex out of fear of there entire life up to this point being called a 'phase' or being insulted or ostracized by the current homosexual landscape and community.

.

I'm a 36 year old lesbian, not afraid of anything much, and the idea of having sex with a man is akin - in my mind - to having sex with a dog. Not to infer that men are dogs, just that we are different species to dogs, that the idea is ridiculous and that I am so utterly hardwired gay that to be anything else is utterly impossible.

And yes, for some people sexuality IS fluid. Labelling people is not always ideal, some people might consider themselves pan- or omni- or bisexual. I would prefer not to speak for them, it isn't my reality and I do not know better than them so would consider it most decent to ask them to speak for themselves.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

Well most people don't like to compromise on something like that so it has to be an absolute.

Although I don't believe its either option. You aren't born gay and you sure as hell don't choose to be. Its how you grow up. For whatever reason people who are homosexual grew up with experiences and beliefs that ended up with them being gay. Now I think that some are born with characteristics that make them more likely to be gay, but I don't think that they are born liking the same sex. Same with every other sexual orientation. We like what we like because we grew up and "learned" (using it loosely here, we weren't taught, we "learned" from our environment) to like it.

And please, if you're upset by my opinion, don't flame me. Let's discuss it like reasonable people.

-Learned snip-

This guy's got it. I snipped only because he goes inot so much detail. Look up the post if you want to read the whole thing.

 

[Kagim]

Also, am I the only one who has notices a very simple way of proving that you're 'born that way'? Erections.

Do you choose to get erections? No. They're natural, you get them when you're attracted to someone.

When a woman is raped there body will generally go through the same reflexes, even orgasm. Does that mean the women liked being raped?

When a man has something forcefully shoved up there ass they will have an erection. It doesn't matter if it is the most beautiful person in the world or an 85 year old doctor they will have an erection, even orgasm as well.

What you just said? is the reason why male rape cases still don't get the attention and respect they deserve. "Oh! The man got an erection! That means he liked it! Not rape!"

It's bullshit.

 

[Valksy]

You aren't born gay and you sure as hell don't choose to be. Its how you grow up. For whatever reason people who are homosexual grew up with experiences and beliefs that ended up with them being gay. .

Like what? Specifically? What experiences and beliefs?

I have hetero parents who have been married for 44 years. I didn't know what a lesbian was until I was 13 or 14 years old. I was already used to having crushes on girls and sometimes teachers and also Cagney from Cagney and Lacey. I knew that it wasn't clever to tell anyone these things.

Other than that, what experiences and beliefs do you think that I might have been exposed to? Serious question.

 

[Kagim]

The homosexual will refuse to admit there attraction to the opposite sex out of fear of there entire life up to this point being called a 'phase' or being insulted or ostracized by the current homosexual landscape and community.

.

I'm a 36 year old lesbian, not afraid of anything much, and the idea of having sex with a man is akin - in my mind - to having sex with a dog. Not to infer that men are dogs, just that we are different species to dogs, that the idea is ridiculous and that I am so utterly hardwired gay that to be anything else is utterly impossible.

And yes, for some people sexuality IS fluid. Labelling people is not always ideal, some people might consider themselves pan- or omni- or bisexual. I would prefer not to speak for them, it isn't my reality and I do not know better than them so would consider it most decent to ask them to speak for themselves.

Please re read what i said. As so far from your response you don't know what i am trying to say. And have missed the point.

To be short, the point of the bit you quoted out of context? Is about people following social roles.

That doesn't apply to you? Your absolutely sure? Good for you. I'm not speaking for you, or anyone in particular. I am speaking about my own views and personal observations on the subject? Think they are wrong, your allowed to. I already stated that they are my own personal opinions and observations and nothing else.

For some people it is just the simple? Alright. No arguments here.

Dealing with the entire human race? No. I would say it is far more complicated. Labeling EVERYONE under ANYTHING is, however to me, ass backwards as it only enforce roles on people that might not follow said roles if not otherwise imposed on them.

You seem to be saying that it's not an absolute extreme thing, it's a "90% gay, 10% straight" or "80% straight, 20% gay" sort of thing, right? Wouldn't that fall in line with people saying "Everyone's at least a little bit gay"?

More so that everyone has there own preference, and to lump everyone as one or the other when dealing with such a large number of people and variables is kinda silly.

 

[TeeBs]

Thats like saying I can one day wake up and be a woman or I can wake up one day and be black or I can wake up one day being tall or I can wake up one day and be someone else, and that would also be like saying someone who is gay can wake up and be straight. It just doesn't work that way, because I know a lot of gay guys who would just love to be straight.

No, it's not like any of those things. All of those things you named are defined by physical characteristics. Considering the fact that there is no anatomical difference between gay and straight people (unless you count ONE study that used an absolutely miniscule sample size to claim a tiny difference in pineal gland size, which you'd have to crack open someone's brain in order to see), your comparisons are a little silly.

I don't think anyone choses to be gay, and I don't think anyone is born gay. I think that orientation is a complex interaction of inborn characteristics, environmental factors, and behavior.

The reason this argument takes on the color is does is because religious fundamentalists started it, using "it's a sinful choice" to persecute people. In reaction to that, gay rights activists have decided they're going to out-stupid the religious fundamentalists by saying "it's 100% inborn".

Anyone who espouses either viewpoint is pushing an agenda, fucking retarded, or both.

Or genuinely believes that. Of course the two scientific beliefs are born gay or nurtured gay. Neither of which is a choice, I should have said something like you don't have the choice of being retarded or overly emotional "though you can control that to an extent" and characteristic of how you think.

Also since when is pushing agenda a bad thing, would it be better if everything stayed the same. We would fight for anything. It seems supporting anything to some people has become demonized. Instead of what the believe in people are attacked for believing anything.

 

[Valksy]

I would also point out that if - hypothetically - I could go back in time to the point of my creation (whenever you perceive that to be) and decide one way or the other with no knowledge of my first go at life - I would choose Hetero each and every time.

Not because I no longer love my own gender - I do, profoundly.

Not because I have a secret yearning for the opposite sex - I certainly do not.

But because in my life's journey this far my sexuality has been a cause for fear, mild discrimination, some persecution, a hazard to my personal safety and yet I consider myself lucky and feel like I have ben more fortunate than many other guys and girls of my acquaintance. Just in terms of raw statistics I know that my odds of finding Ms Right are significantly lower than if I was seeking Mr Right.

 

[Peteron]

You cannot choose to be gay. You are born it. If you "choose" to be gay, you are probably either lying or confused. The brain controls sexual behavior, along with all other bodily functions. Sexuality varies during birth, and is surprisingly common.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

You aren't born gay and you sure as hell don't choose to be. Its how you grow up. For whatever reason people who are homosexual grew up with experiences and beliefs that ended up with them being gay. .

Like what? Specifically? What experiences and beliefs?

I have hetero parents who have been married for 44 years. I didn't know what a lesbian was until I was 13 or 14 years old. I was already used to having crushes on girls and sometimes teachers and also Cagney from Cagney and Lacey. I knew that it wasn't clever to tell anyone these things.

Other than that, what experiences and beliefs do you think that I might have been exposed to? Serious question.

I can't say specific things because it would differ from person to person. One person's mind might have started to link the same sex with sexual arousal. Another person might have always been more comfortable around the same gender or never had any interest in the other (romantic, sexual, or otherwise). A third person might have "learned" (due to societal pressures) that due to their actions that they were of a specific orientation. And I'm not saying that its just people of the homosexual orientation, I'm saying that it's everybody. I don't believe that I was born hetereosexual. It was my experiences growing up that "taught" my mind that girls are attractive and didn't link the male form to the same reaction (arousal) as well.

The only way to figure out what the defining points (if any, it could just have been a long line of events) that caused them to become whatever sexual orientation they associate themselves with is through a long case study that would look throughout their entire life. The human mind is a complex thing, you can't just say "its always a choice" or "its always in-born".

 

[Hairetos]

Think of genetic gayness as a 2-dimensional slider bar. Only the end 10% of each side are "completely gay" or "completely straight". For that 20% of the population, there is no choice. For the rest, there is.

Unpopular, uncomfortable view... but it's closest to what we currently know about the subject.

That sounds like a nonsense thought supported by a nonsense statistic.

Got some facts to back it up?

 

[DarthFennec]

Rarely, other animals beside human have exhibited gay behavior before.

No, that's definitely not a rare occurrence.

But we humans also have free will, meaning you can, indeed, choose to be gay.

That's ridiculous, it's like being black and choosing to be white. Michael Jackson was never really white, no matter how much he decided that he was. While you can go tell people you're gay, and pretend that your gay, and have gay sex, you won't enjoy it in the slightest, and you'll never really be gay.

Okay, I propose a challenge, because I'm getting really sick of people telling me this. You go choose to be gay for a while, and see how it turns out. I'm looking at anyone who thinks this can actually happen. You try, and we'll see how much you fail. It doesn't work.

 

[Caliostro]

I see a lot of people on both sides arguing if people were born gay or chose to be gay themselves. What I don't see is anyone saying both camps are just as valid as the other. Rarely, other animals beside human have exhibited gay behavior before, clearly showing it can be a rare natural occurrence. But we humans also have free will, meaning you can, indeed, choose to be gay. I'm sure both types of gays exist, they're equally valid. So why does it need to be one or the other?

This is because one of the sides is right and the other one isn't. This isn't an opinion. This is over 2 decades of scientific research.

A lot of things factor into being gay, like genetic, cultural, social and personal factors. One thing that doesn't, however, is personal choice. You don't choose to be gay anymore than you choose to be black, or tall, or liking blond women, or strawberries.

I dare you to choose to be gay for a day only. Not "act according to socially constructed gay stereotypes". I mean I want you to choose to be legitimately physically and emotionally attracted to your own gender for one day only. You'll notice you can't.

 

[Zaik]

I've been loosely saying something similar all along, however it doesn't feed the victim complex and is promptly dismissed.

From the outside looking in, it seems as if these that are screaming over and over and over again about how nobody has a choice ever just want to be part of an super important elite group decided at birth and at the same time be victims trapped in a cage with no door. They scream that you can't opt into being gay, then turn around and cry about not being able to be straight, often in the same sentence.

Their best defense assumes everyone that would choose to be gay would do so in under 30 seconds, and often cite claims saying things like "you can't just be a woman" or "you can't just change your race". Of course not. You *can* undergo horomone therapy for years and get several plastic surgeries, alter your mannerisms and voice, and look a hell of a lot sexier than a lot of women do. You can be born black, but have a bazillion plastic surgeries and be commonly accepted as white by less educated people as long as you don't act black and can dance good, apparently.

Their other defense is this one(apparently?) mythical study that most, if not all, of them haven't actually read(I haven't either) that has as much merit on it's own as the "eggs are good/bad" studies. This reeks of the "Global Warming method", where any information that *could* corroborate your claim is incorrectly defined as proof while anything that hints of disagreement is considered "unreputable", regardless of it's actual merit.

TLDR = They keep saying it until everyone who knows better gets bored of disagreeing and everyone who doesn't know assumes it's true, then those who actually know what is going on are in the minority

 

[RatRace123]

You can't choose to be gay...
You can choose who you have sex with, but you can't choose who you are attracted to.

 

[beniki]

I don't really see much reason why it can't be a choice. It's not like male homosexuals have an allergy to vaginas, and I'm willing to bet if they found a woman with the right personality and other factors, then they'd reconsider their sexuality. And vice versa of course.

...

Actually I guess it's just wishful thinking on my part. I just want to believe when I met the right person for me, it wouldn't have mattered that she was a woman, and that it really is her mind that I want.

So that would be bisexuality then?

And it can be somewhat annoying to hear the old chestnut "if only the right person came along..". I have had male friends all though my life, still do, but it could never be more than friendship. I am willing to bet, from my experiences in the GLBTQ community over 18 years, that the number of guys who identify as gay but would go for pussy anyway to be pretty close to zero.

Well, to be honest I understand where you're coming from. I never consider going for men, so I don't see any reason why gay men would consider going for women.

But, from my logic, I would just say the kind of minds you're attracted to just happen to be homosexual.

... Which massively falls down where things like porn are concerned, where you have little or no access to the personality of the person.

So a theory in progress, likely to be torn apart by some good science. Still, if the perfect person came along who made your heart sing, and there were no doubt in you mind whatsoever of how you felt... would you say no, just because it was a he?

An argument you've no doubt heard before, and will probably hear again. But I'll dig out another Star Wars quote; "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."