Born gay, Chose to be gay, Can't it be both?

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Dags90

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Lem0nade Inlay said:
EDIT: Also, does anyone happen to know if a children raised by same sex parents grow up to show gay or otherwise "unusual" tendencies? Just curious.
They're pretty much the same as children raised by any other group. I think the only thing they've shown is that they don't view gender roles as being as important.
Kortney said:
Maybe a straight guy is pretending to be gay for the attention. That doesn't make him gay because he is not genuinely sexually attracted to men and therefore is not gay.
Are you suggesting Sean Penn isn't gay? That someone could fake their sexuality?

I really don't see this thread going well.
 

Mass B

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I don't think the issue is how homosexuals come to be, i think the issue is how to deal with it. How should society act?

Then again, would the issue of choice vs birth decide how they would be treated?
 

Valksy

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Lem0nade Inlay said:
EDIT: Also, does anyone happen to know if a children raised by same sex parents grow up to show gay or otherwise "unusual" tendencies? Just curious.

Why would it matter? My parents are everso straight, indeed they have been married for 44 years and are still together. I am a raging homosexual.
 

Eri

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Feb 21, 2009
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thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
Dana22 said:
Jiraiya72 said:
Did you even read what I wrote? I said being gay in animals is rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species.
Universal doesn't change the rarity.
I don't know where and why you're getting this 'rarity' thing, but it, uh, doesn't exist. Link me to a single study that you can find of any kind of abnormal rarity of homosexuality in animals aaaaand go.
Most people are not gay, therefore rare compared to non gay. Simple enough?
I said 'abnormally rare' as the central conceit of your argument was that it is more rare in animals to be gay than it is in humans, therefore some humans are choosing to be gay. In fact I believe that was the entire point of your post.
As I said to another person above I was not intentionally trying to imply gay humans are rarer or not compared to other animals.
 

thublihnk

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Jiraiya72 said:
thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
Dana22 said:
Jiraiya72 said:
Did you even read what I wrote? I said being gay in animals is rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species.
Universal doesn't change the rarity.
I don't know where and why you're getting this 'rarity' thing, but it, uh, doesn't exist. Link me to a single study that you can find of any kind of abnormal rarity of homosexuality in animals aaaaand go.
Most people are not gay, therefore rare compared to non gay. Simple enough?
I said 'abnormally rare' as the central conceit of your argument was that it is more rare in animals to be gay than it is in humans, therefore some humans are choosing to be gay. In fact I believe that was the entire point of your post.
As I said to another person above I was not intentionally trying to imply gay humans are rarer or not compared to other animals.
Then your argument loses any and all weight it had to begin with...
 

beniki

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May 28, 2009
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I've found some of the arguments against it being a choice to be a little lacking, simply because analogy falls down in this particular case. My music preferences change, and as I live the kinds of food I like change. I'm not a static being, I change.

I don't really see much reason why it can't be a choice. It's not like male homosexuals have an allergy to vaginas, and I'm willing to bet if they found a woman with the right personality and other factors, then they'd reconsider their sexuality. And vice versa of course.

Actually I guess it's just wishful thinking on my part. I just want to believe when I met the right person for me, it wouldn't have mattered that she was a woman, and that it really is her mind that I want.

After all, as the puppet said, "Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter."
 

Valksy

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beniki said:
I don't really see much reason why it can't be a choice. It's not like male homosexuals have an allergy to vaginas, and I'm willing to bet if they found a woman with the right personality and other factors, then they'd reconsider their sexuality. And vice versa of course.

...

Actually I guess it's just wishful thinking on my part. I just want to believe when I met the right person for me, it wouldn't have mattered that she was a woman, and that it really is her mind that I want.
So that would be bisexuality then?

And it can be somewhat annoying to hear the old chestnut "if only the right person came along..". I have had male friends all though my life, still do, but it could never be more than friendship. I am willing to bet, from my experiences in the GLBTQ community over 18 years, that the number of guys who identify as gay but would go for pussy anyway to be pretty close to zero.
 

DirgeNovak

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Jul 23, 2008
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You cannot choose your sexual impulse. If that was the case pedophiles, necrophiles and other abominations would not exist. Being gay is a sexual impulse, exactly like heterosexuality, pedophilia or liking to insert ferrets in your bumhole. I think you're probably not born with it per se, but you don't get to choose it either.
 

Xan Holbrook

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I'm bisexual and it wasn't a choice for me, it felt entirely natural and right for me - having said that, people have every right to explore, experiment and shop around; it doesn't make you a bad person and, if anything, sex makes you a little more open, intelligent and keeps you in contact with the cornerstone of human behaviour. There's no sin, no guilt, it's there for you to get, it's not out there to get you.
 

Eri

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Feb 21, 2009
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thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
Dana22 said:
Jiraiya72 said:
Did you even read what I wrote? I said being gay in animals is rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species.
Universal doesn't change the rarity.
I don't know where and why you're getting this 'rarity' thing, but it, uh, doesn't exist. Link me to a single study that you can find of any kind of abnormal rarity of homosexuality in animals aaaaand go.
Most people are not gay, therefore rare compared to non gay. Simple enough?
I said 'abnormally rare' as the central conceit of your argument was that it is more rare in animals to be gay than it is in humans, therefore some humans are choosing to be gay. In fact I believe that was the entire point of your post.
As I said to another person above I was not intentionally trying to imply gay humans are rarer or not compared to other animals.
Then your argument loses any and all weight it had to begin with...
Or you never understood it to begin with..
 

PhiMed

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Nov 26, 2008
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TeeBs said:
Thats like saying I can one day wake up and be a woman or I can wake up one day and be black or I can wake up one day being tall or I can wake up one day and be someone else, and that would also be like saying someone who is gay can wake up and be straight. It just doesn't work that way, because I know a lot of gay guys who would just love to be straight.
No, it's not like any of those things. All of those things you named are defined by physical characteristics. Considering the fact that there is no anatomical difference between gay and straight people (unless you count ONE study that used an absolutely miniscule sample size to claim a tiny difference in pineal gland size, which you'd have to crack open someone's brain in order to see), your comparisons are a little silly.

I don't think anyone choses to be gay, and I don't think anyone is born gay. I think that orientation is a complex interaction of inborn characteristics, environmental factors, and behavior.

The reason this argument takes on the color is does is because religious fundamentalists started it, using "it's a sinful choice" to persecute people. In reaction to that, gay rights activists have decided they're going to out-stupid the religious fundamentalists by saying "it's 100% inborn".

Anyone who espouses either viewpoint is pushing an agenda, fucking retarded, or both.
 

Valksy

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PhiMed said:
The reason this argument takes on the color is does is because religious fundamentalists started it, using "it's a sinful choice" to persecute people. In reaction to that, gay rights activists have decided they're going to out-stupid the religious fundamentalists by saying "it's 100% inborn".

Anyone who espouses either viewpoint is pushing an agenda, fucking retarded, or both.
Citation please. Thrill and astonish me with your insight. Come along now, you clearly know the answer and have links to peer-reviewed studies that illustrate your point of view.

No?

Didn't think so.

Note - pointing out the difference between declarative statements and opinions.
 

Cmwissy

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Homosexuality isn't having sex with males - It's being attracted to males, there is a difference. I could have sex with a guy, it wouldn't make me gay because I'm not attracted to them.

Also, am I the only one who has notices a very simple way of proving that you're 'born that way'? Erections.

Do you choose to get erections? No. They're natural, you get them when you're attracted to someone.
 

thublihnk

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Jul 24, 2009
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Jiraiya72 said:
thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
thublihnk said:
Jiraiya72 said:
Dana22 said:
Jiraiya72 said:
Did you even read what I wrote? I said being gay in animals is rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species.
Universal doesn't change the rarity.
I don't know where and why you're getting this 'rarity' thing, but it, uh, doesn't exist. Link me to a single study that you can find of any kind of abnormal rarity of homosexuality in animals aaaaand go.
Most people are not gay, therefore rare compared to non gay. Simple enough?
I said 'abnormally rare' as the central conceit of your argument was that it is more rare in animals to be gay than it is in humans, therefore some humans are choosing to be gay. In fact I believe that was the entire point of your post.
As I said to another person above I was not intentionally trying to imply gay humans are rarer or not compared to other animals.
Then your argument loses any and all weight it had to begin with...
Or you never understood it to begin with..
No, I understood it perfectly, but the only part of it that made a lick of sense didn't have any factual basis. So. :p Sorry, better luck next time.
 

Kagim

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Aug 26, 2009
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Both camps seem to be wrong.

One side screams "Your born gay and you never have the ability to enjoy anything other then your own sex"

The other side screams "It's a choice and you only do it because your misguided, be it Satan, because you were molested or had any other traumatic experience!"

Both scream for an absolute extreme.

When you take a close look at sexuality you find it isn't gender people are attracted to. Do you look at a girl and think "WoW! That's a girl! I want to nail that on the sole virtue of her being a girl!". No. There are little physical attributes that draw you to a person sexually.

Now, what we call a homosexual is someone who, more often then not, finds physical attraction in attribute similar to themselves. They like attribute more commonly associated with being male or female (depending on there own gender). If you apply these attributes to a member of the same, or opposite sex depending, without revealing WHAT sex the person is you will go through the same reactions. Arousal and intrigue.


If you lived your life being told you only like one or the other what will happen when the gender is revealed is generally NOT caused by you having some switch in your head calling you gay or straight, but rather because what you have already subconsciously decided for yourself telling you to stop. At that point it is no longer preference but pressure by social norms.

The homosexual will refuse to admit there attraction to the opposite sex out of fear of there entire life up to this point being called a 'phase' or being insulted or ostracized by the current homosexual landscape and community.

Likewise the Heterosexual will refuse to admit any attraction to the same sex out of fear of being ostracized by parents, friends and society at large.

In other words, the heterosexual stops feeling arousal for the member of the same sex carrying all characteristics they enjoy simply because they have decided that they are not supposed to.

Homosexuals will stay homosexual because they have been taught that since they like certain characteristics the possibility of ever finding the same characteristics in a member of the opposite gender is just plain impossible.

Likewise, Heterosexuals will stay heterosexual because they have been taught that since they enjoy characteristics of the opposite gender the possibility of ever finding someone who matches them of the same gender is just impossible.

it's why the term sexual preference seems very fitting. It's what you prefer. For example, someone can prefer apples, that doesn't mean oranges won't hit the spot.

Now, before someone accuse me of this, let me nip it in the butt now.

"Lol Kagim! So you think people can just choose to be gay or straight! Your an idiot!"

No. I actually don't really believe in the concept of people being gay or straight. I believe people like what they like, whether or not a female or male carries this characteristics isn't what leads to you being attracted to them. I also believe people like a lot of things and that no one is truly confined to a singular desire.

It is simply social norms that create these lines in the sand. Gay or straight is just what we use to define someone who prefers there own gender or not. However to say it's impossible for some defined as 'gay' to be interested in the opposite gender seems to be just a narrow minded as saying someone who is defined as 'straight' can not have a sexual attraction to those of the same gender.

Your not attracted to gender. Your attracted to attributes. Simply because you happen to prefer characteristics more common to your own sex does not mean there is simply no god damn possibility of you ever meeting someone. It just means it is unlikely.

I mean. Christ. Think about it. How many people are you honestly, truly attracted to versus a casual interest or completely uninterested in. If gender was truly a deciding factor porn would be nothing but a male or female standing there naked. The sheer variety of pornography with the thousands of different styles, fetishes with men and women of all shapes and sizes kinda shows gender has little to nothing to do with it. It's all about attributes.

A major problem with the concept of "Everything you will ever ever ever EVER find attractive is decided at birth!" is that we really have no evidence of this. What makes us aroused is hard to understand and made up of foggy ideas at best. Most fetishes have some sort of root from out upbringing basing. I mean did you know having a preference to breasts can be a sign of not being properly weened? If you are a guy or girl who likes to lick or suck nipple there is a good chanced you were not properly weened and your mother pulled you from the nip to early or to late, or even never nursed you at all. Which means a girl could love sucking on a woman's nipple not because there is a switch in there brain saying "SUCK NIPPLES! ON!" but because they were not weened properly.

There is just SO MUCH we don't understand about this subject simply screaming one extreme over another seems... Well inappropriate. Everything i have said comes from my own personal view on the subject, and am ready to admit it is pretty much opinion. However honestly pretty much everything else said about this subject is merely opinion and personal observation.

Yes, there are variables such a hormone balances but then a friend of mine has had a testicle removed since puberty began, it didn't drop and had to be surgically removed. He, very clearly, has a hormone imbalance. He also has a girlfriend and a glance at his hard drive shows a great interest in women. While i realize this in no way disproves anything involving hormone balance to be the cause it does show it is not the only deciding factor.

I know a lot of people will likely flame me to pieces for not being on one side or the other.

This is just what i have come to understand sexuality as.

Simply that, as much as people want it to be black and white it really... really isn't.

To me, the labels gay or straight are narrow minded and lazy. To lump people into these categories and just scream "THEY WERE BORN THAT WAY AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOUR FUCKING IGNORANT!" is just as stupid as screaming "EVERYONE IS STRAIGHT AND IF YOU THINK YOUR GAY YOUR JUST STUPID AND WRONG AND FOLLOWING THE DEVIL OR SOME OTHER ROOT AND DEEP DOWN YOU ARE STRAIGHT!"

Just two groups trying to simplify something that is not simple at all.
 

Circleseer

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Aug 14, 2009
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It's a variation in the brain. If you were to cut out the right bit of someone's brain, they wouldn't feel sexual attraction anymore at all.

Whether you can or can't influence your sexual preferences is really not that interesting, the whole reason we care so much is a rather temporary cultural thing. We ought to just get over it and let people do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedroom, assuming all involved parties agree.
 

Eri

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Feb 21, 2009
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Cmwissy said:
I could have sex with a guy, it wouldn't make me gay
That's not the best way or example to prove you're not gay...