Born gay, Chose to be gay, Can't it be both?

[Cmwissy]

Now, I happen to be a gay man. But, for a long time I thought I was bisexual. Why? Because I still think some women are hot. I still like breasts.

Hi. Lesbian here {{secret handshake}}

I have often wondered about the boob thing with gay guys. Now I don't assume that you can speak for all gay blokes, I am well aware of how much of a nonsense that is, but do you have an opinion on why some (not all) gay guys are so fascinated with breasts? I must have been groped 1000 times by guys I know to be as gay as hell and plenty of my lesbian buddies report the same sort of thing. My reaction has been anything from laughing my ass off, to grabbing junk (through trousers) in retaliation to the occasional face slap. What IS that about?

Might be something to do with the mother-son breast feeding thing. It's a weird complex quite a few men, gay or straight, have.

My 2 penneth.

 

[TWRule]

Well, since there is no evidence of biological determinism for sexual orientation (rather it is something determined by ourselves and our interactions with society), and even if there was, free will allows us the power to change ourselves to a nearly infinite degree, I would have to say that the "born to be gay" viewpoint is not valid.

Look up Jean-Paul Sartre and "Bad Faith" if you want to know the background reasoning. Better yet, read "Existentialism is a Humanism."

 

[TWRule]

Look up Jean-Paul Sartre and "Bad Faith" if you want to know the background reasoning. Better yet, read "Existentialism is a Humanism."

Better yet, read Albert Camus and "The Myth of Sisyphus"

That's an excellent choice too!

 

[Sporky111]

Now, I happen to be a gay man. But, for a long time I thought I was bisexual. Why? Because I still think some women are hot. I still like breasts.

Hi. Lesbian here {{secret handshake}}

I have often wondered about the boob thing with gay guys. Now I don't assume that you can speak for all gay blokes, I am well aware of how much of a nonsense that is, but do you have an opinion on why some (not all) gay guys are so fascinated with breasts? I must have been groped 1000 times by guys I know to be as gay as hell and plenty of my lesbian buddies report the same sort of thing. My reaction has been anything from laughing my ass off, to grabbing junk (through trousers) in retaliation to the occasional face slap. What IS that about?

*completes secret handshake*

I really don't know, I didn't know it was a common thing. In my case, I guess it's just fascination. I can't say I'd grope a boob because of it, but I still catch myself staring at a nice rack as often as any of my straight friends.

Though since this is a thread about choice/birth let's explore it. Maybe it's a societal thing? Maybe all the years every boy spends as a child being told that women are beautiful and breasts are nifty is something that just sticks. Or maybe it's a built-in survival instinct so that gay baby boys don't starve because their mom's tit disgusts them.

Yeah, they're both kinda far fetched, but plausible at the very least. Now I want to ask you: are there any parts of guys you find attractive? There's really no equivalent to breasts on a guy, but I know plenty of lesbians are butch so it could be something like short hair or broad shoulders or strong abs.

 

[A Pious Cultist]

They should be able to get married "in the eyes of god" in the same way heterosexual couples are.

I'm really going to regret this, but why exactly is that?

Because marriage is more than just a ceremony. There or legal/financial benefits to doing so and by not having them gay couples are screwed over.

You might as well say "Why should we allow interracial marriage?", that was previously denied by similar calls of "not intended".

 

[Yoshemo]

Well, since there is no evidence of biological determinism for sexual orientation (rather it is something determined by ourselves and our interactions with society), and even if there was, free will allows us the power to change ourselves to a nearly infinite degree, I would have to say that the "born to be gay" viewpoint is not valid.

Look up Jean-Paul Sartre and "Bad Faith" if you want to know the background reasoning. Better yet, read "Existentialism is a Humanism."

There is evidence of biological determinism. If a woman has a lot of sons, the younger ones are more likely to be gay. And if one twin is gay, the other will be gay 70% of the time as well. And if you think its the way they're raised, it happens even if all the kids go to different parents and homes.
Also when it comes to fetuses, scientists have detected higher hormones of the opposite sex in the womb in babies that have later ended up gay in their life, than those of straight ones. This is evidence that they effect the baby's brain to be attracted to the same sex.
There is evidence if you do research

 

[Yoshemo]

Now, I happen to be a gay man. But, for a long time I thought I was bisexual. Why? Because I still think some women are hot. I still like breasts.

Hi. Lesbian here {{secret handshake}}

I have often wondered about the boob thing with gay guys. Now I don't assume that you can speak for all gay blokes, I am well aware of how much of a nonsense that is, but do you have an opinion on why some (not all) gay guys are so fascinated with breasts? I must have been groped 1000 times by guys I know to be as gay as hell and plenty of my lesbian buddies report the same sort of thing. My reaction has been anything from laughing my ass off, to grabbing junk (through trousers) in retaliation to the occasional face slap. What IS that about?

*completes secret handshake*

I really don't know, I didn't know it was a common thing. In my case, I guess it's just fascination. I can't say I'd grope a boob because of it, but I still catch myself staring at a nice rack as often as any of my straight friends.

Though since this is a thread about choice/birth let's explore it. Maybe it's a societal thing? Maybe all the years every boy spends as a child being told that women are beautiful and breasts are nifty is something that just sticks. Or maybe it's a built-in survival instinct so that gay baby boys don't starve because their mom's tit disgusts them.

Yeah, they're both kinda far fetched, but plausible at the very least. Now I want to ask you: are there any parts of guys you find attractive? There's really no equivalent to breasts on a guy, but I know plenty of lesbians are butch so it could be something like short hair or broad shoulders or strong abs.

Actually, scientists have experimented on males and found that men's brains are designed to stare at breasts. So its not that you like em sexually, as much as its a reflex. I don't even like boobs but I stare at em =P

 

[Seneschal]

Please do tell how I can make myself find people attractive.

You really think that humans can't do that? The majesty and power of the human mind is something to behold. Here's a start though, try to make yourself attracted to the person, not the gender. Once you begin feeling close to the personality, the sexual relations become simpler. Over time, you'll likely find that gender more attractive as a whole.

You know I've actually tried that? It didn't work. See, there's this whole spectrum of both psychological and biological reactions. I personally am simply incapable of finding anyone with a penis sexually attractive. I've been all in favor of gay rights since before I even knew any (out of the closet) gay people, and since I've gotten to know a bunch, several of which are quite awesome people, that's only gotten stronger. I will never, ever want to have sex with a guy though. I don't know why, my brain says there's nothing wrong with it and it would probably be really great, but my body simply says no.

I think that's moderately uncommon. Most people seem to be bisexual to at least some degree from my observations, but some of us don't get a real choice. I'd love to be bisexual. It's more options, and while women are great people I find they tend to be very frustrating to try to maintain relationships with. To the point that I've pretty much given up on having sex ever again. Having the ability to play for the other side, as it were, would be nothing but a good thing, and I personally see nothing wrong with it. I know in particular a couple guys who I would gladly go gay for. Except that penises are the biggest turn off ever.

I agree with you that the capacity of the human mind, especially its capacity to change itself, is vastly underrated. It is not, however, unlimited. Some things simply cannot be done.

I don't think it's as uncommon as you think. Most people will remain fixed in their sexuality, gay or straight, especially after adolescence. Most people aren't bi, they just have the "bi potential" to fluctuate based on their needs, some more, some less. For example, in same-sex institutions like gender-divided schools or the military, particularly susceptible people (even if normally straight) may have a shift of sexuality. This may be temporary, if their life conditions change.

Yes, most people can go back-and-forth under pressure, but the majority is like you. The "man-crush" thing is the latent "back-and-forth" element that most men feel safe in having because it's based on emotional, not sexual attraction. But this is also why sexuality shifts often manifest towards close friends or idols - the emotional gap is easier to bridge in a pinch.

 

[TheTaco007]

Um fruit bats have a higher gay population percentage than us and any other animal on the planet...

 

[soulfire130]

I think you can choose to have gay sex as a fetish or just experimenting, but I don't think you can choose to be gay.

 

[Tdc2182]

Not really. You can't just choose to like penises (or vaginas if you're a gal). At least, you can't choose it and be happy. You'd be a fake gay, in my opinion. Also, why would you choose that life for yourself? Being rediculed and shunned for your way of life.

I think you are kind of missing the point.

It would be a choice, but not a choice in the way you are thinking.

You know what, I'm gonna stop myself there because I have no idea how to explain this.

 

[Denamic]

Does it matter?
Some people are gay.
Done. End of story.

Also, it's not a rare natural occurrence in animals.
It's actually fairly common.

 

[Valksy]

Now, I happen to be a gay man. But, for a long time I thought I was bisexual. Why? Because I still think some women are hot. I still like breasts.

Hi. Lesbian here {{secret handshake}}

I have often wondered about the boob thing with gay guys. Now I don't assume that you can speak for all gay blokes, I am well aware of how much of a nonsense that is, but do you have an opinion on why some (not all) gay guys are so fascinated with breasts? I must have been groped 1000 times by guys I know to be as gay as hell and plenty of my lesbian buddies report the same sort of thing. My reaction has been anything from laughing my ass off, to grabbing junk (through trousers) in retaliation to the occasional face slap. What IS that about?

*completes secret handshake*

I really don't know, I didn't know it was a common thing. In my case, I guess it's just fascination. I can't say I'd grope a boob because of it, but I still catch myself staring at a nice rack as often as any of my straight friends.

Though since this is a thread about choice/birth let's explore it. Maybe it's a societal thing? Maybe all the years every boy spends as a child being told that women are beautiful and breasts are nifty is something that just sticks. Or maybe it's a built-in survival instinct so that gay baby boys don't starve because their mom's tit disgusts them.

Yeah, they're both kinda far fetched, but plausible at the very least. Now I want to ask you: are there any parts of guys you find attractive? There's really no equivalent to breasts on a guy, but I know plenty of lesbians are butch so it could be something like short hair or broad shoulders or strong abs.

Thanks, that made me snicker =D

Erm. Re-reading what I said I sort of surprised myself - as odd as that sounds - that it didn't really offend or bother me to get groped by a gay guy. I guarantee a straight bloke would be going home with his fingers in a paper bag.

And yes, your gay baby boy remark also made me giggle (personally, I know that I was bottle fed). Maybe it is partly because breasts are so much on display (in the west) and in public consciousness somehow. For as long as I can remember, one of the British daily newspapers has had a topless lass on page 3. It is perfectly normal and no one really thinks twice about it, but it is pretty overt and I am not sure that anyone would have any trouble with a 11 year old boy buying a copy of The Sun.

Now I'm not sure but I don't think that there has ever been the same sort of focus on male anatomy. Not in modern times at least. OK so our ancestors were drawing dicks on everything but not in recent years. Hell, it was only in the last 5-7 years or so that the UK relaxed its porn laws to allow erections to be shown. I suppose that there isn't the same sort of body worship with the male form that there is with the female.

I have been out with very butch women (like myself) and very femme women and all sorts in between. All shapes, all sizes. I don't really have a specific archetype that I would focus on. Now that doesn't mean that I am blind to a bloke being well made - I just finished watching an episode of Spartacus: Blood and Sand, that clung lovingly to every shoulder, arm and ass muscle. I appreciate Andy Whitfield is a good looking chap with a well built body. I just don't want to shag him (and find the idea both screamingly hilarious and mildly gross).

 

[Eri]

I see a lot of people on both sides arguing if people were born gay or chose to be gay themselves. What I don't see is anyone saying both camps are just as valid as the other. Rarely, other animals beside human have exhibited gay behavior before, clearly showing it can be a rare natural occurrence. But we humans also have free will, meaning you can, indeed, choose to be gay. I'm sure both types of gays exist, they're equally valid. So why does it need to be one or the other?

First of all in the entire scope of humanity the majority of people are heterosexual so your argument about other animals is a bit invalid. Also there is such a thing as animal homosexuality.

And no, you cannot chose to be gay. You cannot chose to find a man or a women sexually attractive you are born with the inclination.

But, man does have the free will to perform whatever acts he wishes

Free will means you can choose to do gay acts, but you can't chose to be gay.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said being gay in animals is rare.

No it really isn't, as I said in my post, homosexuality in animals is very well documented.

That doesn't make it less rare. There are more straight than gay, therefore rare. I can say uncommon if you'd rather that term.

 

[Jake the Snake]

I don't believe you can "choose" a sexuality, or change it, shy of being brainwashed or something. Your sexual orientation is something hardwired to your brain. No amount of personal will is going to change to what you are on the inside.

 

[ZephrC]

snip

Similarly, I think it's just fundamental differences in views. But don't forget being gay is about attraction, not sex.

Umm... it's about sexual attraction. If the only way to be gay was to like guys and not girls, only misogynists would be gay.

You know I've actually tried that? It didn't work. See, there's this whole spectrum of both psychological and biological reactions. I personally am simply incapable of finding anyone with a penis sexually attractive. I've been all in favor of gay rights since before I even knew any (out of the closet) gay people, and since I've gotten to know a bunch, several of which are quite awesome people, that's only gotten stronger. I will never, ever want to have sex with a guy though. I don't know why, my brain says there's nothing wrong with it and it would probably be really great, but my body simply says no.

I think that's moderately uncommon. Most people seem to be bisexual to at least some degree from my observations, but some of us don't get a real choice. I'd love to be bisexual. It's more options, and while women are great people I find they tend to be very frustrating to try to maintain relationships with. To the point that I've pretty much given up on having sex ever again. Having the ability to play for the other side, as it were, would be nothing but a good thing, and I personally see nothing wrong with it. I know in particular a couple guys who I would gladly go gay for. Except that penises are the biggest turn off ever.

I agree with you that the capacity of the human mind, especially its capacity to change itself, is vastly underrated. It is not, however, unlimited. Some things simply cannot be done.

I don't think it's as uncommon as you think. Most people will remain fixed in their sexuality, gay or straight, especially after adolescence. Most people aren't bi, they just have the "bi potential" to fluctuate based on their needs, some more, some less. For example, in same-sex institutions like gender-divided schools or the military, particularly susceptible people (even if normally straight) may have a shift of sexuality. This may be temporary, if their life conditions change.

Yes, most people can go back-and-forth under pressure, but the majority is like you. The "man-crush" thing is the latent "back-and-forth" element that most men feel safe in having because it's based on emotional, not sexual attraction. But this is also why sexuality shifts often manifest towards close friends or idols - the emotional gap is easier to bridge in a pinch.

No, you see, people who can go back and forth are, to some degree, bisexual. That's simply having a preference for one gender while at the same time having the capacity to be attracted to both. That's fairly common, but not everyone has that capacity. That's what I meant when I said my status is uncommon. There are some people who don't have the capacity to find the other gender attractive. People who, when in a situation where only around members of a particular gender, they still won't be attracted to that gender.

I realize that most "bi potential" people, as you put it, will generally identify themselves as and act in a manner consistent with being completely straight. I guess how you'd classify those people depends on how you define strait and bi. What I meant was that not having a choice in the matter is what is unusual, and I was using the term "bisexual to at least some degree" to include people who simply have that bi potential.

 

[SadisticPretzel]

Because most people find it harder to condemn someone for a fact they had no control over. It's easier for religious people to condemn bisexuals/gays to hell if they believe we chose to be this way just to piss their god off. If we were born this way, they might have to grapple with the idea that their god would create a person that goes against his own rules, automatically condemning them to said religion's version of hell.

Also, it's far simpler to feel superior over someone if you see their "fault" as a choice they made.

 

[TWRule]

Well, since there is no evidence of biological determinism for sexual orientation (rather it is something determined by ourselves and our interactions with society), and even if there was, free will allows us the power to change ourselves to a nearly infinite degree, I would have to say that the "born to be gay" viewpoint is not valid.

Look up Jean-Paul Sartre and "Bad Faith" if you want to know the background reasoning. Better yet, read "Existentialism is a Humanism."

There is evidence of biological determinism. If a woman has a lot of sons, the younger ones are more likely to be gay. And if one twin is gay, the other will be gay 70% of the time as well. And if you think its the way they're raised, it happens even if all the kids go to different parents and homes.
Also when it comes to fetuses, scientists have detected higher hormones of the opposite sex in the womb in babies that have later ended up gay in their life, than those of straight ones. This is evidence that they effect the baby's brain to be attracted to the same sex.
There is evidence if you do research

You can find an "expert" that will say just about anything. However, I've yet to see any convincing argument illustrating a direct parallel between hormones and consciously made choices.

And again, even if there were such a thing - even if they isolated a "gay" gene tomorrow. Sexuality, like gender roles, are created through interactions between the individual and society. Therefore, they are malleable and ultimately chosen. A woman doesn't have to exist as what society deems a women if she chooses not to, regardless of what her hormones say (she might have the body, but the body does not make the person) - and the same is true for any other societal construct of sexuality.

Biological factors can influence choices, but they cannot determine what you finally choose. To Submit to biological determinism is to deny free will.