Can killing be justified?

[shadrath]

only as a last resort.

 

[jamesworkshop]

Would you let Hitler live? Exactly

they let stalin live

Not exactly Hitler died cos he lost the war stalin lived because he won the war.

plus hitler kinda killed himself

allies should have taken out stalin during ww2

Stalin was part of the allied forces,

Churchill wanted to after the fall of Berlin but nobody else really liked the idea and britian voted him out after the war

stalin was part of the allies after hitler attacked him. the allies should have attacked stalin too

So instead of fighting Germany, Italy and Japan with the soviet union as back up the allies should have fought Germany, Italy, Japan and Russia

That doesn't sound like a smart idea considering how crucial Russia was in defeating Germany and liberating the first concentration camps.

alright. lets leave the insane genocidal murderer in power and let the the cold war happen

Alright lets avoid the cold war by losing the second world war to the new and improved axis forces and greatly weakened allied forces

Cold War was nothing compared to WW2

 

[gally912]

Life is easier when you realize that there are people in this world that dont deserve to live.

 

[The Rockerfly]

You wish to blame a single man for an economic prototype that failed? Yes, the consiquences of mistakes in the plan economy is horrible, still what the world learned from this may, and Will be used in the future. Whenever you like it or not for our planet and race to survive we need a social demokratic world wide rule. In the end Communism is the only thing that will work, and we will on that day look back with honour and grief to those whom lost their lives in failed atempts in what will eventually become the source of world peace. and my answer is still, Mao was no Douche. Just not as good a planer as he should have been for his position.

Communism ignores several basic human motivation ideas. For example, if you are given exactly the same amount of money becoming a shop keeper why would anyone spend years to train for medicine?

Also a communist economy only works if the countries they are treading with also have the same methods. For example, if I sell you a loaf of bread in a democracy I can set an amount I want but I have to deal with competitors and possible competitors outside the country. However with a true communist country, if I want to sell a loaf of bread, it will all be the same price everywhere which sounds good but go out of the country and it will be a different price so everyone will go somewhere else for the bread.

You can't just ignore factors like that especially if it's basic human thinking. Why do you think communism hasn't worked before? Look at Cuba, Bulgaria and China, many people live in horrible conditions and starve to death as a result of the communism failing and the damage is still apparent today. A lot of Cuba is just rubble, Bulgaria has about 3 cities and in China people are killing themselves having to work so hard because of the economic damage.

Mao killed 20-40 million people and massively damaged the economy, regardless of other factors he should have planned for those external factors. In my books and many others, that makes him a douche

 

[BanZeus]

...

I don't believe in separating thought from action. They should relate to each other because effectively in life they are linked. By justifying an act you are also justifying the thought, as with making an act unjust you also make thinking of it unjust. I believe that if murder is necessary in self defense, it is justified. This is because the act of murder is an arrogant action of self determination, arrogant enough that it ends the life of another. On this note, murder in self defense is still murder and hence a very bad an arrogant action but if you do it to save your or another's life when under threat then I see that as a terrible action that is also justified.

The thinking kills the person, because what it means is the decision to kill the person or not. If the thinking isn't there, that would be called manslaughter.

That way lies madness. Thinking about rape doesn't make you a rapist any more than thinking about climbing Everest makes you a mountain climber. Thinking about murder is no different.

Also, the self defense/defense of others rule so many people love touting:

Wouldn't your attacker automatically be justified in using lethal force to protect his own life once you attack him?

What about if you shoot a doctor in a parking lot because he performs abortions? Would a third party not be justified in plowing into you with an SUV at 40mph?

If my little brother is on trial for a murder I know he didn't commit (but I can't prove it), and is likely to be sentenced to death, who should I be killing to protect him?

 

[BanZeus]

...

You can't just ignore factors like that especially if it's basic human thinking. Why do you think communism hasn't worked before? Look at Cuba, Bulgaria and China, many people live in horrible conditions and starve to death as a result of the communism failing and the damage is still apparent today. A lot of Cuba is just rubble, Bulgaria has about 3 cities and in China people are killing themselves having to work so hard because of the economic damage.

...

As much as I hate the meme: Pics or it never happened.

At the very least cite your sources if you're going to make those kinds of statements.

 

[The Rockerfly]

As much as I hate the meme: Pics or it never happened.

At the very least cite your sources if you're going to make those kinds of statements.

I went t these places on holiday, it's very hard to. I will find some links after work

 

[superbatranger]

If your life or the lives of your friends and family are threatened, then killing that person is justified. However, killing someone due to revenge or some twisted sense of justice is not. We have the legal system for a reason.

 

[jamesworkshop]

.

Alright lets avoid the cold war by losing the second world war to the new and improved axis forces and greatly weakened allied forces

Cold War was nothing compared to WW2

but would we have really lost the second world war? would we have? really?

Most definatly, the Eastern front was believed to be responsible for 50% of the total casualties of WW2 and was the largest theater of war in history.

Russia pretty much defeated Germany, Romania, Hungary, Italy, Slovakia, Croatia, Finland by themselves and lost about 14% of their entire population doing so
also they liberated almost all of the concentration camps.

Russia offered support to the partisans in many Wehrmacht-occupied countries in Eastern Europe, notably those in Slovakia, Poland and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
In addition the Polish Armed Forces in the East, particularly the First and Second Polish armies, were armed and trained, and would eventually fight alongside the Red Army


The Berlin offensive by Russian forces was the reason Germany surrendered in the end.

"By measure of manpower, duration, territorial reach and casualties, the Eastern Front was as much as four times the scale of the conflict on the Western Front that opened with the Normandy invasion."

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Killing is never justified.

Here I am, jus' little ol' me, not built like Schwarzenegger, no significant martial arts training, no almighty psychic powers, on my way back from varminting, culling the rat population on the farm there. I'm cutting across the disused lot when a car pulls up. They can't see me, but I can see them. Three men get out and unload two video cameras, two tripods, a boom microphone, a small generator, some stand-lamps and a camping mattress, which they take inside. Then a van pulls up and the driver gets out and talks to the three men for a while, and then the four of them get two tied-up and gagged six-year-old girls out of the back of the. I call the police. They're 25 minutes away. The men carry the girls inside. I slide my rifle back out of its carry case, chamber a round, fit a full magazine and move to where I can see in through a window. The police are 23 minutes away. Inside, they're setting up a film studio. The cameras and lights are hooked up to the generator and facing the mattress in the middle of the room. I use my mobile to photograph this situation. The girls are brought into the room and paraded for the cameras. The police are 21 minutes away. The four men undress the struggling, crying girls, ignoring their muffled protests. The police are 19 minutes away. Two of the men take off their trousers and put on condoms. The police are 18 minutes away. These two girls are 60 seconds away from life-threatening injury and massive psychological trauma. The butt of my rifle presses firmly against my shoulder. I place my phone gently on the ground and stand. My right hand closes over the grip, my trigger finger finding the trigger guard. The police are 17 minutes and 45 seconds away. The girls are 45 seconds away from getting raped. My thumb hits the safety catch and folds it forwards. The police are 17 minutes and 40 seconds away. The two girls are held down on the floor, and the two men in line to rape them first haul their ankles up into the air and angle them for the cameras. The police are 17 minutes and 25 seconds away. I line up the pinhole rear sight, the centre of the ring foresight and the back of the near one's skull, right at the top of his spine. I'm just about to tell them how badly out of luck they are when I notice that they've all got pistols with large-capacity magazines loaded into them within easy reach. If I disturb them they might just start shooting, they might go for a hostage situation and they might do both. The police are 17 minutes and five seconds away. The man in my sights is on his knees, holding a terrified little girl's naked body in front of him, pulling her up the length of his thighs. Four seconds. My left eye closes and I draw a breath. Three seconds. He's getting the angle just right. I can hear her screaming against the gag from here. I feel my heart beat bounce the rifle slightly in my hands. Two seconds. I let out half a breath and take up the slack in the trigger. Another beat, another moment of perfect stillness. Through the sights I can see the exact spot I want to him to poke a finger-sized hole through his brainstem and shred his whole brain. One second. I squeeze a little further, microns from ending him. The police are seventeen minutes and one second away. He gets himself lined up and starts to pull ...

Killing is never justified.

Never?

 

[BanZeus]

...

Those extrapolations are ridiculous.

...

I don't see them as any more ridiculous than drawing arbitrary lines in the sand where everything on this side is Okay. It's what we do every day, constantly, but that doesn't mean it's not absurd when you look at the bigger picture.

What about if you shoot a doctor in a parking lot because he performs abortions? Would a third party not be justified in plowing into you with an SUV at 40mph?

If my little brother is on trial for a murder I know he didn't commit (but I can't prove it), and is likely to be sentenced to death, who should I be killing to protect him?

Those situations are morally grey without this added dilemma so it's not right to use them as examples. And in regards to your brother in this hypothetical situation, a judicial system is killing him, not any single person.

...

I disagree (surprise )

The question is: "Can killing be justified?" Any real answer boils down to a binary "Yes." or "No." Anything that can't be reduced to Yes or No ("Maybe.", "I don't know", "go ask your mother/father" etc.) isn't a real answer.

The situations are "morally gray" precisely because people justify killing every day.

What's muddying the water is the subtext: "When is it right to kill?"

 

[Valksy]

Yes, absolutely.

I was watching a movie "The Rock" a couple ays ago and it featured a scene where the president was agonising over the loss of 81 hostages versus 1million killed by a chemical weapon.

Seemed to me to be a total no-brainer and really could not get the angst.

 

[BanZeus]

Killing is never justified.

Spoiler

Here I am, jus' little ol' me, not built like Schwarzenegger, no significant martial arts training, no almighty psychic powers, on my way back from varminting, culling the rat population on the farm there. I'm cutting across the disused lot when a car pulls up. They can't see me, but I can see them. Three men get out and unload two video cameras, two tripods, a boom microphone, a small generator, some stand-lamps and a camping mattress, which they take inside. Then a van pulls up and the driver gets out and talks to the three men for a while, and then the four of them get two tied-up and gagged six-year-old girls out of the back of the. I call the police. They're 25 minutes away. The men carry the girls inside. I slide my rifle back out of its carry case, chamber a round, fit a full magazine and move to where I can see in through a window. The police are 23 minutes away. Inside, they're setting up a film studio. The cameras and lights are hooked up to the generator and facing the mattress in the middle of the room. I use my mobile to photograph this situation. The girls are brought into the room and paraded for the cameras. The police are 21 minutes away. The four men undress the struggling, crying girls, ignoring their muffled protests. The police are 19 minutes away. Two of the men take off their trousers and put on condoms. The police are 18 minutes away. These two girls are 60 seconds away from life-threatening injury and massive psychological trauma. The butt of my rifle presses firmly against my shoulder. I place my phone gently on the ground and stand. My right hand closes over the grip, my trigger finger finding the trigger guard. The police are 17 minutes and 45 seconds away. The girls are 45 seconds away from getting raped. My thumb hits the safety catch and folds it forwards. The police are 17 minutes and 40 seconds away. The two girls are held down on the floor, and the two men in line to rape them first haul their ankles up into the air and angle them for the cameras. The police are 17 minutes and 25 seconds away. I line up the pinhole rear sight, the centre of the ring foresight and the back of the near one's skull, right at the top of his spine. I'm just about to tell them how badly out of luck they are when I notice that they've all got pistols with large-capacity magazines loaded into them within easy reach. If I disturb them they might just start shooting, they might go for a hostage situation and they might do both. The police are 17 minutes and five seconds away. The man in my sights is on his knees, holding a terrified little girl's naked body in front of him, pulling her up the length of his thighs. Four seconds. My left eye closes and I draw a breath. Three seconds. He's getting the angle just right. I can hear her screaming against the gag from here. I feel my heart beat bounce the rifle slightly in my hands. Two seconds. I let out half a breath and take up the slack in the trigger. Another beat, another moment of perfect stillness. Through the sights I can see the exact spot I want to him to poke a finger-sized hole through his brainstem and shred his whole brain. One second. I squeeze a little further, microns from ending him. The police are seventeen minutes and one second away. He gets himself lined up and starts to pull ...

Killing is never justified.

Never?

Not to trample on your fantasy too much but: you think if you shot him in the torso or arm he'd just shrug it off and keep going? He's a pedophile, not the Terminator.

From a tactical standpoint you're better off wounding him anyway: if you kill him he won't need immediate medical attention, so if/when this becomes a hostage situation the police can exchange medical attention for the girls. And it's not like they'd be a hell of a lot safer if there were only 3 of them.