Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

[floobie]

Didn't read all 6 pages. Ignore me if I'm repeating.

I can understand both sides of the story here. But, one point I'd like to address: The friend-zoned guy ceasing all contact once the girl has made her lack of interest clear.

To paraphrase a quote from Parks and Recreation: "You can't just carve out the different components of a relationship and choose which one you want".

There comes a point where maintaining a friendship with someone who you want to have more than a friendship with is just detrimental to your own sanity. To break free of that crush or whatever and move on sometimes requires severing contact completely. It isn't always the guy being dick, only being interested in getting in the girl's pants or something. It's that being around someone you have strong feelings towards will only serve to reinforce those feelings. It isn't possible to change how you feel about someone... that goes both ways.

It certainly is very selfless and nice to maintain a friendship with someone you're really into, even if it keeps you obsessed with that other person, preventing you from moving on and trying to find that relationship elsewhere. But, sometimes you just have to be selfish so you can move on.

I do agree with the sentiment of the OP, though. A lot of self-proclaimed "nice guys" who always get friend zoned are just selfish jerks who just lack the confidence to make their intentions clear in the first place. They aren't really nice. They just view niceness as a tool they have to use to get some.

 

[Ren_Li]

I... I think I have the OPPOSITE problem.

I'm exceptionally picky. I'm also apparently lady-bait. It's not always romantic, but I do seem to have this way with the ladies- even bosses, in a platonic, work-friendly way. And peers (obviously the ones into the dudes) do tend to go "oh why can't all men be like yoooou!"
However, I also seem to have some anti-"make a move" pheromones goin' on, because the ladies- and the dudes, for that matter, 'cause I tend to make an impression on some of them as well- don't seem to want to make the first move. I don't know what to make of that. Maybe it's perfectly clear when I'm uninterested; or maybe it really is just that they just admire my personality without wanting to jump me. I don't have much of a track record of being turned down, though; I've only missed one major relationship opportunity which I was into (well, two, but the second lass went on to become a bible-bashing born-again Christian who seems determined to ruin everyone's fun so LUCKY ESCAPE THERE.) And I've not spent a HUGE amount of single either.

So, being "friend-zoned" is... not something I personally know a huge amount about, I guess. But hey, if a dude can't see that being friends with an awesome, attractive lady is a win in and of itself- even if it's not exactly what he'd wanted- then his loss.

 

[Vegosiux]

So, being "friend-zoned" is... not something I personally know a huge amount about, I guess. But hey, if a dude can't see that being friends with an awesome, attractive lady is a win in and of itself- even if it's not exactly what he'd wanted- then his loss.

Why do a woman's looks make a friendship a "win in and of itself"? Sorry, I don't get it.

 

[Altorin]

Well, sometimes, especially when you're younger, you don't know how to initiate a more intimate relationship. Your only context for beginning a relationship is to become friends. These guys may not be correct, but it doesn't mean that they're monsters. They just don't know any better, and the ONLY way they're going to learn these things is to go through them. You can't learn this stuff just by reading. The part of your brain that deals with this and the part of your brain that reads things are the wrong sides, and it's difficult to just learn emotional maturity from a bunch of words.

There is also the possibility that a guy will start being friends with a girl, and then realize that he likes her later. Should that guy be lumped in with the guys that use friendship as a carrot? I don't think so. I think these guys are painted far too often with a far too negative brush. It's just part of growing up and being a man. And dealing with these men is training for growing up and being a woman. Of course, there are "nice girls" too that do exactly the same thing, but they often just get hurt in a different way. It's sad, but true. The friendzone from the otherside is more dangerous because men are more likely to just give in sexually, even if they aren't interested in anything more. It's a dog thing to do if you know what's going through the girls mind, but humans can't read minds. I digress.

That isn't to say that there aren't manipulative jerks out there, and I can certainly empathize with the women dealing with these people, I just think that lumping all guys that are not good at dealing with women into one big lump is dangerous territory that should be avoided. I don't really want to argue about it though and probably won't be back, so just take what I'm saying with a grain of salt and consider it a devil's advocate testimony.

 

[Smooth Operator]

OP just FYI we don't get shoe metaphors at all, maybe if you could put things in a Diablo frame...

I don't think this "friend-zone" was ever adequately explained, so let's make this clear being friend-zoned means you are currently not attractive enough to be considered for a relationship with them (currently as in that can change), and always keep in mind that friendships have a much lower attraction demand then relationships.

And attraction can be split into two parts, your physical appearance and your mental appearance, appearance is the key word here because it is all about how the opposing party perceives you, as a guy you primarily need to work on the latter.
Now this is where you will mess up your chances dragging things out as a friend, firstly you will not aim to impress or soon get lazy/give up when you get comfy in the friendship, then there is the mystery, you will appear most mysterious and exciting while people don't know you, hang around for long enough for them to figure you out and all that magic is gone.
Example, from all the girls I was crushing on in the past the only ones I would still want to be with are those who I never got to know.

Lastly about the man hate revolving these topics, look as much as we enjoy the "men are pussy hunting emotionless badasses" image that has been bestowed upon us it isn't actually true.
So when you expect us to sort out every problem without fail you are delusional, we have our fears, our insecurities, our desires, and most importantly we make mistakes, if you want the friendship to work then understanding hasto go both ways, everyone has their share to learn about the other.

 

[Raven's Nest]

So, being "friend-zoned" is... not something I personally know a huge amount about, I guess. But hey, if a dude can't see that being friends with an awesome, attractive lady is a win in and of itself- even if it's not exactly what he'd wanted- then his loss.

Why do a woman's looks make a friendship a "win in and of itself"? Sorry, I don't get it.

One way to interpret it is that it raises a guy's status to be seen with an attractive woman. To my understanding, women find men who appear in-demand, more attractive.

That and if a really attractive woman became my friend, she'd be nicer to look at than a really unattractive one...

 

[Raven's Nest]

Lastly about the man hate revolving these topics, look as much as we enjoy the "men are pussy hunting emotionless badasses" image that has been bestowed upon us it isn't actually true.

Woah woah woah, that ain't the whole truth is it?

Spoiler

 

[Slayer_2]

You guys think hearing "why can't I find a guy like you?" is hurtful after you've been shot down? How about when she DOES find the guy just like you, and goes on to tell you about him in detail. Then you see him, and it's almost like looking in a mirror. However, I'd since moved on to greener pastures, and I don't hold grudges, so I was there to comfort her when he didn't return the feelings. Getting all angry and mopey isn't going to do shit for you, so snap out of it.

Also, I've seen a few shallow bitches posting here, not going to say names, but if all you look for in a guy is attractiveness, guys you don't find attractive are lucky to dodge you, I feel bad for the ones you think are hot. Same goes for guys, of course. Anyone who judges someone based purely off their appearance isn't worth speaking to.

 

[archvile93]

Now this won't apply to everyone but...

In my experience, if you fancy a girl just straight out ask them out. Establishing a friendly relationship first is 75% of the reason you can be friend-zoned, the other 25% is because she probably doesn't find you attractive enough to date. Both of which are not two things friends want in a history between them.

Girls are not psychic, they will not spontaneously interpret your constant clinging on to hope that with every conversation you become a little bit closer to scoring with her as a prompt to fall at your heels. She will either eventually realise what you are doing is creepy or it will come as a complete surprise when you suddenly and emotionally declare your everlasting love for her two years down the line. When you start acting all pissy when she sees other men she will be extremely hurt by the behaviour of what she genuinely believed was a friend. All of these roads will lead to you becoming that arsehole creep I need a restraining order against

Sooner or later, boys learn to man up and ask a girl out first and immediately set a tone for potential romance. Yes you might get rejected, yes it sucks, but no it won't happen everytime you ask someone to at least go for a coffee and it will most definitely let a girl you are interested and will prompt her to consider you as well. Trust me, it is better to learn this sooner rather than end up hurting yourself or even worse the girl whom you so dearly claim to never want to hurt...

So what, am I supposed to just walk up to a woman I know nothing about other than she's hot and go, "will you go out with me?" I don't about woman, but if someone did that to me (and one person did) my first thought would be, "Do I know this person? This is really creepy." I'm really curious about this.

 

[Vegosiux]

One way to interpret it is that it raises a guy's status to be seen with an attractive woman. To my understanding, women find men who appear in-demand, more attractive.

That and if a really attractive woman became my friend, she'd be nicer to look at than a really unattractive one...

But that would count under "ulterior motive" then? You're friends with a person, not with how they make you look in public.

 

[JCBFGD]

Methinks that if you compare finding friends and significant others to shoe shopping, you're not worth being friends/significant others with. People are not shoes.

When one is friend-zoned, their plans for sex weren't shot down, their plans for being with a great girl were. You seem to have fallen victim to the myth that the only thing that all men want is sex. That's stupid.

If you've been friend-zoned, it may actually be best to end the friendship (though not always). It can get mighty awkward for the both of you. I wouldn't myself, I mean, the more friends the merrier, but I can see why some people would. Also, it's ridiculous for you to assume you know what's best for everyone.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm nice to everyone until they give me a reason not to. This includes girls. I'm friends with a few girls. And I have no romantic or sexual interest in them.
You don't know much about male psychology, do you?

 

[jamjar]

Last girl I asked out just said lets all hang out sometime,she was a friend btw, thought the least I would get would be a straight answer, haven't talked to her since, don't really want to be friends with people like that

 

[Raven's Nest]

So what, am I supposed to just walk up to a woman I know nothing about other than she's hot and go, "will you go out with me?" I don't about woman, but if someone did that to me (and one person did) my first thought would be, "Do I know this person? This is really creepy." I'm really curious about this.

... Yes. You don't need to walk up and say "hi, I find you really attractive will you be my girlfriend?". Just strike up a conversation with her. If it goes well suggest grabbing a coffee to finish the conversation some time.

It's about the most obvious date scenario set-up imaginable. Nearly all women would see this as a sign your interested in them. How you handle and project yourself during the meet will affect how the woman then responds. If it goes well ask to take her out sometime, take her number and go from there. Obviously if the woman isn't into you she will either decline the coffee or decline the date.

If you already know the person, it's a little trickier but at least you have a better reason to start a conversation with them. Be confident, be yourself and be somewhat forthcoming with your intentions. Offering to do things friends do like coming over to watch a film or hanging out and going shopping is not giving a clear message.

Maybe watch a few films or TV series and watch how men approach women. It's not always some mysterious set of circumstances that brings a fated pair together...

 

[Hagi]

Well the point I was trying to make is that it's not fair to the girl if the guy is friends with her for a while and the whole time the guy isn't up front about his feelings. And then suddenly the guy whips out the "I want a romantic relationship" card. Then when the girl doesn't feel the same way, the guy acts like she has wronged him in some way cause you know, god forbid she doesn't see you that way. My beef isn't with guys who develop feelings for a friend over time, it's with guys that are attracted to a girl but decide to be friends with her first in hopes of a relationship and then when it doesn't work out they abandon her. Then not only are you hurt, but so is the girl involved because it's like you didn't even want to be friends in the first place.

But in general, if a girl doesn't have feelings for you, she is NOT a bad person, and she didn't wrong you in any way!

To summarize: If you are attracted to a girl, tell her upfront instead of being friends first because that's kind of deceiving and not a very nice thing to do because in the end you will both have hurt feelings.

I hope I'm making sense here.

And (to everyone reading) sorry if my original post was a little vague in any way. I have a habit of being a tad ambiguous.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way on some points (definitely not all, I fully agree that the girl is not a bad person).

The guy does want to be friends with the girl in question. He likes her. In fact, he likes her so much that he'd like to spend a whole lot more time with her.

But she doesn't want the same with him. And that hurts. And staying with her whilst feeling that way also hurts. So he stops spending time with her, for his own sake.

He isn't abandoning her. Just like she doesn't have a responsibility to date him he doesn't have a responsibility to be friends with her even if it's just hurting him. He's just rejecting the friendship in the same way she's rejecting the relationship. Neither of them has any obligation whatsoever to engage in social contact they do not desire. Neither of them is a bad person for doing so. Neither of them is wronging the other.

Friendship is a mutual thing. Both people involved need to be happy with it. If one of them isn't but is still pretending to be then that friendship is already over. And that's completely fine. We don't control our own emotions, sometimes we can't help falling in love. And sometimes those emotions get in the way of our friendships and those friendships end. That's just part of life. Sometimes it's anger, sometimes it's sadness, sometimes it's infatuation.

One other thing, being upfront doesn't work. I'm afraid that just isn't how human interaction goes. I wish it was, but it isn't. Being upfront is generally considered weird and undesirable. What you want is subtlety. You flirt, you don't confess.

Being upfront forces the other into situations they may not want to be in at all. Being suggestive and flirty allows them to light-heartedly dismiss you if they're not interested and avoid extremely awkward situations.

 

[Raven's Nest]

But that would count under "ulterior motive" then? You're friends with a person, not with how they make you look in public.

I didn't read the preceding conversation just thought I'd throw the comment out. Befriending someone for their looks is an incredibly shallow thing to do. But if you happen to have attractive female friends, this effect seems to take place, intended or not.

I think it works the opposite way for men though. If all your male friends are considerably more attractive than you, it doesn't bode well for you.

It's just subconscious human nature to compare humans stood next to each other.

Random fact. I was watching QI last night where it was claimed that upon first glance women will look at only the face of an individual where as men will look at face and then groin, of males and females....And even dogs!

 

[DarthSka]

I've had to leave a girl in the friend zone before, not that it lasted though since she seemed to despise me after that. I don't know if it was from this sense of entitlement you speak of since I treated her no different than any of my friends and I was never interested in her in the first place. It was mostly due to everyone else saying how good we'd go together (their reasons were completely idiotic by the way). Now, to this day I don't believe that she was only friends with me with the sole purpose of being with me since we had been friends since elementary. Romantic attraction can inadvertently form during a friendship, so it's not always just because the person was interested in getting into the other person's pants from the start. I would dare to say that that situation is probably the rarer one. Of course, rejection always stings and right at the start can lead to irrational thoughts and behavior. Sometimes the friendship can eventually recover and continue while for others, it's too much for one party to take, like in my case. So being upset is perfectly understandable. On a final note, the whole, "I wish I could find someone like you," line is terrible to say since they're basically telling them that they want someone like you are, just better in some way.

 

[VivaciousDeimos]

A girl doesn't dream of "marrying a decent guy". She wants a guy she loves who is a decent guy. If 'being a decent guy' is your most outstanding feature, you need to work on yourself.

Bolded for truth, and it's one of the complaints I see a lot. "But I'm so nice, why doesn't she like me?" Maybe the word is supposed to encapsulate a broader meaning--the way Nice Guy tends to refer to that very particular flavor of asshole--but when I hear people say, "I'm nice," all I can think is, yes, and? You don't get brownie points for being a decent human being. That's the bar. "Nice" can certainly be a quality you have, but if it's the one you're leading with...yeah. Some introspection might be in order.

You must be new here on the internet.
There are a LOT of "nice guy" rants floating around. Really, it isn't funny. It's just... sad.

Did you see the one that was floating around on craigslist a few years ago? An open letter about "where all the nice guys went". I think that one was my favorite.

I believe we qualify those as "creepers." And not the exploding kind. Some people need to get the difference that being nice =/= being romantic, and will not further any romantic goals. Some people also need to learn that doing something to one person only is just weird, unless of course you're already dating.

You are absolutely correct, they are creepers. And assholes. And while they are creepers, the internet tends to refer to them as Nice Guys. Which I think can lead to some confusion, because nice guy=/=Nice Guy. Although sometimes the two can overlap somewhat. And I think it's why some women tend to be leery when that phrase gets thrown around.