Chivalry is dead. And wymen/womyn killed it.

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SenseOfTumour

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Jul 11, 2008
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I've had it, and I usually don't bother honouring a complaint about me holding a door with an answer, but I think I'd answer with a simple , just holding it open for another person, is all, didn't have to be a woman'

Or if I was brave, and she's convinced I'm being sexist then 'just wanting another look at your butt as you walked thru, sweetcheeks *wink*' (I wish I had the cojones to counter a sexist accusation like that!)

Really tho, I'll take the garbage out for a next door neighbor, help the old lady in the bottom flat with her techie stuff (like her..TV), hold doors open, carry shopping for old people, all that, and not just so I can feel superior to all those dumb women and old people.

Its just a simple case of I can make life easier for other people with very little effort.
 

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
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I call horseshit on the story. Every dude I know with a bone to pick with feminism has a story about being shouted at for holding open a door. It's practically an urban legend.
 

Zeriercahl

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Apr 3, 2008
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Prepare for WALL OF TEXT. (Please read... I feel this is well thought out...)

Radical feminism (womyn) is the opposite belief to chauvinism as the Black Panthers were set to oppose the KKK. Both of those groups are mostly defunct now, however there are still many chauvinists out there, and additionaly, men who are completly ignorant to the problems many women face (I'm looking at you bulletinmybrain, specificly what you have said concerning abusive relationships which shows a complete lack of understanding or empathy to the situation.) The purpose of Radical Feminism is to both oppose modern day chauvinism and to educate males (and some females, such as the grandmother who believes it is the womans job to cook etc.) on the current situation/problems of many women and why this or that should be done. To say radical feminism is bad and shouldn't be around anymore would be fine if chauvinism also ceased to exist, however, radical feminism came about as a respone to chauvinism, as women around the globe were and still are being victimized by such beliefs. Radical feminism must exist as this is the current state of things.

As for the holding the door open example, please think about it from the womans perspective before you get offended. On the one hand, you could be just a nice guy and what you are doing could be a gesture of kindness (which is the case) however, on the other hand, you could be a chauvinist, you could be opening the door as a gesture that you are superior.
Think that's a bit of a stretch? Perhaps, however we're talking about perspective here. From her perspective, you have insulted her pride with this gesture just like in other cultures around the world things considered polite here are rude there (such as in the Middle East, the left hand is considered unclean so one should never hand something to someone with their left hand.) Do we make threads about how stupid this dirty left hand thing is? Well, weather we agree with it or not, the point is, dirty left hands and men holding doors open while implying something demeaning are just a different set of beliefs than your own, necessarily, and we should respect that.
Tolerance and understanding are the key words here. From the limited examples you've used and other things you've said (directed at OP) I get the feeling as though you don't have a real understanding of the radical feminist perspective. You should look into the belief more before you make up your mind and forsake any set of beliefs. After all, who are we to tell anyone else that they're wrong if they truly beleive in something.

As for chivalry, let's be clear here. Chivalry is inherently sexist is it not? Why were Knights chivalrous in the first place? Was it not because men were the ones who held power in society, being king's and having the weapons, and women were either abused and used as baby factories or were the subjegated property of their higher class citizen husbands? Women were viewed as the weaker species, and in many senses they were at this time. It is said that: "He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals.
--Immanuel Kant, (1724-1804)
Was this not the mind set concerning women and chivalry at the time? That they are akin to small animals, weak and helpless, and they should be cared for and protected by the stronger men? Additionally, humans being selfish creatures, are many men not chivalrous just to prove that they are kind hearted, and the gesture of chivalry may not be actually sincere?
Now, this is not necessarily true, however, it may possibly be the way a woman views chivalry. If it was, could you not see how this could bother a woman? Especially one who is especially proud (which is definatly not a bad thing, feminist or not.)

That being said, on the one hand it is true that "feminism killed chivalry" however is that bad? Chivalry spawned from the fact of women being weaker than men. Shouldn't women, along with other stereotypical gender roles, "outgrow" chivalry? However, chivalry is not inherently bad. But then what is it's place in our society today? What men must strive for if they wish to be chivalrous is chivalry based on respect, not social status or physcial strength. I will just say this. 1.) Not all women want men to be their knight in shining armor. Some women look for this, however some women have goals of independence or ambitions for greatness. 2.) Women do NOT want special treatment. At least no more than any particular person does. Want women want is RESPECT. Why is this so hard to understand? Women go through child bearing and a menstrual cycle and face many other women only problems. For compensation does a women want you to hold a door open for them? "Sorry about all those problems you have that I don't. Here, I'll hold the door open for you."

I believe men have a responsibility towards women. This responsibility includes treating women with equality and respect. When a women doesn't appreciate your gesture and you turn around and call her a *****, all this does is prove your lack of respect! Why is it this women's responsibilty to accept your gesture anyway? The truly correct response to this situation is simply saying "Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you." THAT'S ALL. Argueing with someone when you inadvertently offend them only shows your lack of understanding.
 

Brett Alex

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Jul 22, 2008
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Bulletinmybrain said:
Again my shooting example, If somebody shot you would you not stay the hell away so you don't get shot again?

It is simple If you are to lazy to take 10 seconds dial 3 numbers and have a 2 minute or so talk for help then like I said what can somebody do to help you? Swoop down from the sky and magically fix things with fairy dust? No?

If a spouse is being beaten then there are two options. Continue or stop it. There are various ways to stop it as stated by others such as killing the person but then that breaks laws in itself.

My solution breaks zero laws, takes less then 5 minutes, And fixes the problem.
Fixes the problem does it? So as soon as the victim gets on to 911 it guarantees a conviction does it? There is no chance that the charge won't stick and the abusive partner will just hit their wife harder because she went to the cops?

Before she even does that she has to work up the courage to make the call. Did you ever think that perhaps its not because their lazy, but because they are scared? They are embarrassed?

Think how humiliating would it be to have to go and tell a stranger that you've made a huge fucking mistake. To tell them that the person you married, the person you thought loved you, the person you thought you'd grow old with is actually abusing and oppressing you? I can't imagine it would the worlds greatest feeling.
 

santaandy

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Sep 26, 2008
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Zeriercahl said:
WALL OF TEXT
Well, I read it, you did write pretty well. I agree with your spirit and intent, but real life is throwing in some monkey wrenches. If a woman simply told me "no thanks I can get the door myself," I'd be okay with that. I only protest when a woman launches into a vicious gender-bashing diatribe over the smallest thing. Keep your pride if you will, there is a difference between pride and arrogance. Women who do it themselves are cool; women who think their gender makes them better than me are not. But regardless of that, the fact that a woman automatically assumes a man views her as inferior is based on the fact that he is a man and is still offensive. Again, I understand your point, but both sides have to be willing to give each other a chance. I promise not to assume women are either weak and in need of saving or raving lunatic bitches if they promise not to assume I am looking to save someone or just being hateful myself. The points in your last paragraph should apply to both genders; both genders should behave that way.

And while I don't want to argue semantics with you, I disagree with your choice of words in "radical feminism." I personally believe that -isms are bad because that is the definition of people taking their views or goals too far. Being radical is usually when people oppose things to a negative extreme (despite what some people might like to think). What you described women *doing* is a good thing, but the words seem to be misplaced. Being radical and following -isms carry connotations, so perhaps if the feminine advocacy movement retitled itself they would be seen in the decent light they should be and not as the crazy "cock-choppers" the -ism brings out.

And jimClassic: Run Away! Run for your life!
 

Ultrajoe

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Apr 24, 2008
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jimClassic said:
I've never, ever met a 'man hater'. I'm not even sure what I'd do if I encountered one.
Appease them with a soothing dance.

I recommend some breakdancing to Vivaldi. Throws anyone right off.
 

santaandy

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Sep 26, 2008
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Speaking of literature, did anyone ever notice how one-sided "The Vagina Monologues" are? While I have never watched them, reading about it makes me not want to. The only portrayal of a man as anything other than a violent psycho was of a guy who had a vagina fetish. Great, so I am made out to be either a monster or a perv (no offense, it's just based on context the play gives). And there's even one story of an older woman getting an underage girl drunk and having sex with her that is praised! Imagine if a man did that! There are no positive depictions of men, or stories of how good men made women's lives better. Even other femenists criticize it for the same reason! There are many other criticisms of it, this is just the one that hit me the most. One male writer was fired from Georgetown's "The Hoya" for criticizing it for that very reason. Talk about unfair!

I don't want this to sound as just me bashing women in turn, but to prove the point that at least *some* men are making progress, "The Men's Story Project" was started as a counterpoint to "The Vagina Monologues." The stories themselves are based around tolerance of homosexuality, platonic male-male relationships, how one man went from committing violence against women to protesting it, transgender issues, and several other non-sexual male-centered things.

My question is: why can't women be more like this? And when they are (I'm sure there are some) why don't they get the same recognition for it?
 

Zeriercahl

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Apr 3, 2008
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santaandy said:
Zeriercahl said:
WALL OF TEXT
Well, I read it, you did write pretty well. I agree with your spirit and intent, but real life is throwing in some monkey wrenches. If a woman simply told me "no thanks I can get the door myself," I'd be okay with that. I only protest when a woman launches into a vicious gender-bashing diatribe over the smallest thing. Keep your pride if you will, there is a difference between pride and arrogance. Women who do it themselves are cool; women who think their gender makes them better than me are not. But regardless of that, the fact that a woman automatically assumes a man views her as inferior is based on the fact that he is a man and is still offensive. Again, I understand your point, but both sides have to be willing to give each other a chance. I promise not to assume women are either weak and in need of saving or raving lunatic bitches if they promise not to assume I am looking to save someone or just being hateful myself. The points in your last paragraph should apply to both genders; both genders should behave that way.
Well first off thank you. (For reading it and for complementing.) Now then, I agree with you of course that both genders should treat each other with respect but I feel our current problem is the lack of understanding of the other genders issues. (A good example of this is a man who is pro-life. How can a man have an opinion on someone elses abortion? (Father aside))
The only thing I can say is that even if a woman in this situation is being completly unreasonable and making outlandish assumptions on either this situation or males in general, (incoming important point)

I believe people (men and women) with this set of beliefs (Radical feminism, or similarly sexism towards men) are currently necessary to exist in order to offset the opposite belief of chauvinism, which I feel is more prevalent in our society than anti-male sentiments.

The point of having opposing viewpoints is ideally that they will one day reach a middle ground and hateful feelings will deminish (Like slavery and racism from more than a century ago... kinda... ... ...GObama!)

Of course I wish we could all just get along and no one should hold any bias like this against a particular group of people, but people don't just draw their beliefs out of a hat. Maybe a chauvinistic male adheres to said beliefs because all of his relationships in his past ended with him being betrayed, and now he feels there are no good women in the world. The same could be said for a women, or perhaps something even more traumatic occured to influence their world view concerning the male psyche.

As a final note I think the door holding example is relativly benign. Maybe she was just having a really rough day, or maybe she was just fucking with you (lolz.) People are not above such things eh?

Also, I have no opinion on -isms or the semantics so I have nothing to realyl say although I'm pretty confident in my word choice, as I think what OP means by "womyn" is actually closer to Radical Feminism.
After all, what's wrong with "womyn" or "herstory" (instead of history.) The point is that it's empowering, which is the way some women want to feel because they feel various aspects of society are putting them down. Who are we to say it's stupid if it makes people feel good?

Bulletinmybrain said:
Wait so you would rather be beaten for the rest of said life then get beaten choked and raped for one day?

Yes I know I am evil. Yes I already got my place in hell picked out.

EDIT: No I am not siding with stalkers, Personally I would have helped the women but then I have a soft spot in my heart to help women. Yes my tainted rotted heart does have a slightly good side. Chivalry isn't dead. Its just the feminists put the chivalrous men in hiding!:D
Although I know I already mentioned this guy and he already left I feel I just had to say something. You have absolutly no idea what your talking about. You're not evil, you're just completly ignorant, or maybe just unable to empathize or sympathize. Either way, there's no arguing with you becaue you seem to have this black and white view on the situation of abusive relationships. However, actually being in the situation yourself is a very different story. Retrospectivly it's always easier to see what we did wrong or where we made a mistake. The same is true from your perspective, On the outside looking in. It's so easy to say "Just call 911. Problems solved." I'm not going to tell you or argue with you all the reasons why this doesn't work because you're obviously too limited in perspective to see the way things really are (plus your not even here anymore) but I would really encourage you (and anyone who agrees with this crazy guy) to open your mind to a different way of thinking and at least entertain the idea that maybe actually being in a situation that is so stressful on so many levels (emotional, physical, spiritual, societal, etc.) that correct decisions are not always easily made and people don't always know what to do. Especially when it takes more than a phone call to sort out ones life when something like this situation has fucked it up so much.
 

smallharmlesskitten

Not David Bowie
Apr 3, 2008
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mshcherbatskaya said:
smallharmlesskitten said:
mshcherbatskaya said:
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
santaandy said:
I thought women weren't pervs like men? LOL!
You have no idea...but you should get one.
MAI FANFICKSHUN, LET ME SHOW U IT.
........should I be scared in any way, shape and/or form?
No, because you are not old enough to read it. :p
True... I have no plan to either
 

Zeriercahl

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Apr 3, 2008
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santaandy said:
My question is: why can't women be more like this? And when they are (I'm sure there are some) why don't they get the same recognition for it?
This is the first thing I need to call you out on. All of us here are to some extent makign some generalized statements, however "Why can't women be more like this" is going a little too far to not be recognized.
From what I gather you are saying that women (in general?) should be more like men (these particular men) in how they should be more progressive in their beliefs in equality and instead of condoning double standards should focus on true equality?

Well my immediate reaction is to say that You don't know all women and there are probably more than "some" that are virtuous enough in their beliefs in equailty to meet your standards.

As for an answer to your question, that is, comparing The Vagina Monologues to The Men's Story Project. These things are they way they are probably because women feel their sexuality and right to self expression is oppressed and these plays are a way to express that. The Men's Story Project sounds more like oppressors not being oppressing anymore, such as the example you gave "how one man went from committing violence against women to protesting it" or "tolerating homosexuality." (Note that tolerance is different than acceptance.)

That being said, I have not seen The Vagina Monologues or The Men's Story Project and you havn't seen The Vagina Monologues either so I don't believe you can judge based on hearsay. Thusly, we shouldn't talk about it too much as we are both speaking from our ass.

EDIT: After looking up The Men's Story project I see I was the one speaking out of my ass about it. That is, it seems that the play is more about men not conforming to patterns of violence and also many problems that face men today. That being said, I don't think it has a lot to do with The Vagina Monolouges other than they're each plays with gender as a main focus.
 

Ultrajoe

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Apr 24, 2008
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Eggo said:
santaandy said:
Speaking of literature, did anyone ever notice how one-sided "The Vagina Monologues" are?
Speaking of which, did anyone ever notice how one-sided the last couple millenia have been?
That makes it right, i'm sure.
 

mooncalf

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Jul 3, 2008
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Sorry you got your head bitten off. If the thread is about an extreme feminist mindset, then it makes no sense to declare chivalry dead, but that it must be earnest helpfulness, rather than a sexually motivated power play. Read Chivalry's definitions, and understand that it is (at least as I read it.) not about a Man acting towards a Woman, it is about a Person and Anyone, being of courtesy and generosity.

I've heard the holding-the-door example debated before, I'm not sure I understand all the nuance, but I get the impression that it is a storm in a teacup - blown all out of proportion. The woman in your story (womyn? wymen? We do not need such labels) perhaps did not understand that you'd do the same (I assume you would - as I would) for a man or a child, as a cooperative member of a society that works towards a common good, a synergy of helpfulness.