CNN overreacting and claiming Manga is child porn
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That would imply they were informed on something. I refuse to believe that.Lilani said:
I'd be surprised if Fox didn't do it first. CNN's been following their lead for years and years. It's like Fox is the Simpsons of news.Hochmeister said:
Or "news," since nothing these networks are reporting should count.
Though in this case, it looks like everyone just took their cues from an AP piece. Oh, Associated Press, I remember when you used to be "not shit."
To me, this whole issue seems to be "This fetish makes me uncomfortable, therefore it's wrong" pitted against "This fetish doesn't make me uncomfortable, therefore it's fine."
The primary issue that child porn wrong, I.E. the exploitation and abuse of children is non-existent so it really comes down to an issue of whether you think this type of thing being drawn and consumed makes people worse for it or not. As far as I can tell, there's little evidence on either side. On the one hand yes, media does change us to a certain extent, but on the other, it's dangerous territory to start arresting people for the drawing they want to look at, no matter what those drawings contain.
The simple fact is that it's virtually impossible to ever know how many people like this sort of thing compared to the people that actually take do the horrible actions as the absurd stigma this sort of content has means people will never admit to it even to a supposedly confidential person like a psychiatrist.
As for CNN, yeah, no surprise there.
Absurdly sensationalist as always. I also like how totally reasonable the cartoonist was. "You want to ban it? Get some facts. We're happy to cooperate as long as you're not acting like a reactionary idiot."
I also love the hidden camera thing like he was doing some kind of big cloak and dagger, undercover investigation or something.
The primary issue that child porn wrong, I.E. the exploitation and abuse of children is non-existent so it really comes down to an issue of whether you think this type of thing being drawn and consumed makes people worse for it or not. As far as I can tell, there's little evidence on either side. On the one hand yes, media does change us to a certain extent, but on the other, it's dangerous territory to start arresting people for the drawing they want to look at, no matter what those drawings contain.
The simple fact is that it's virtually impossible to ever know how many people like this sort of thing compared to the people that actually take do the horrible actions as the absurd stigma this sort of content has means people will never admit to it even to a supposedly confidential person like a psychiatrist.
As for CNN, yeah, no surprise there.
Absurdly sensationalist as always. I also like how totally reasonable the cartoonist was. "You want to ban it? Get some facts. We're happy to cooperate as long as you're not acting like a reactionary idiot."
I also love the hidden camera thing like he was doing some kind of big cloak and dagger, undercover investigation or something.
You have a point on the differing cultural values. You lose that point when you use it to justify child porn. These are human beings. They might speak a different language and have a separate history, but 'their culture' does not permit them to behave in a manner that can bring harm to people.Zira said:
OT - Firstly, I don't understand the ferocity of the defence of childlike features in compromising situations. Do you enjoy seeing sexualised children? Will the manga really suffer if characters have to be depicted either not as children or not in sexual situations?
Secondly, Japan makes child porn illegal due to Western influence? Fucking good.
Okay, so I have enjoyed cartoons of cartoon children in sexual situations. And I find the idea of actual children naked icky, gross, and unnerving. I however can also find teenagers attractive. There was a point, two years, where I lived in a three family apartment building, and in another unit was a 13 or so teenage girl, and I found her very attractive. And I want to add a little more to perhaps push the point a little further, I had a key to her unit, her mother was not home during most days, I never touched that girl, I did nothing to her, there was no chance I would have, that would have been wrong, and I would not like myself very much. It's a personal story it does not reflect anyone but myself, but there.
On another note. I find the acceptance of full frontal naked babies in cinema to be fucking weird.
On another note. I find the acceptance of full frontal naked babies in cinema to be fucking weird.
I had not been keeping up with the legality issues of manga worldwide and was surprised to see that Manga has already been prosecuted as child pornography in the US and Canada:
http://gizmodo.com/5815306/american-faces-minimum-1-year-in-prison-for-bringing-manga-to-canada-on-his-laptop
http://www.basugasubakuhatsu.com/cnn/
http://cbldf.org/criminal-prosecutions-of-manga/
With the popularity of Manga in the US, I am not even sure if people here are aware they could be charged for this. I think it has already been normalized to such an extent in certain groups, many are not even aware that its legal status is questionable at all.
*"Currently, countries that have made it illegal to possess (as well as create and distribute) sexual images of fictional characters who are described as or appear to be under eighteen years old include Canada, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the Philippines."
In the US, the rulings on whether or not it is child pornography have been varied, however, US Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in...sexual intercourse...and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors
I do think that most are not even aware that people have been and are being charged for this.
http://gizmodo.com/5815306/american-faces-minimum-1-year-in-prison-for-bringing-manga-to-canada-on-his-laptop
http://www.basugasubakuhatsu.com/cnn/
http://cbldf.org/criminal-prosecutions-of-manga/
With the popularity of Manga in the US, I am not even sure if people here are aware they could be charged for this. I think it has already been normalized to such an extent in certain groups, many are not even aware that its legal status is questionable at all.
*"Currently, countries that have made it illegal to possess (as well as create and distribute) sexual images of fictional characters who are described as or appear to be under eighteen years old include Canada, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the Philippines."
In the US, the rulings on whether or not it is child pornography have been varied, however, US Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in...sexual intercourse...and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors
I do think that most are not even aware that people have been and are being charged for this.
Indeed. People act like this is just Japan. I seem to recall a certain British comic book writer who actually DID write a comic featuring child sexuality (Alan Moore, cough cough). In fact it's available on comixology now.Buckshaft said:
Personally this is one of the few things I do think should be censored. Reading lolli isn't going to turn a non pedo into a pedo, but who knows how it affects people who are already like that? Because of the perverse nature of the material, I have no problem with there being limits on it. I do, however, have a problem with people trying to paint an entire medium as being made up of some kind of creepy sub culture. There are plenty of high minded, thoughtful animes out there as well. You find what you go looking for, after all. Why was this reporter in a creepy anime porn shop in the first place, if not to find specific material for a controversial article?
It should be noted, however, prefecture law overrides federal law, raising the age up to 18. So the idea that 13 year olds are legally able to consent in Japan is false as the age is raised in all provinces in Japan via prefecture law.Samsont said:
ALSO "legal" age of consent does not mean they are physically an adult. In fact a 13 year old is more likely, not less than a 10 year old to have lapses in judgement due to the impaired prefrontal cortex at that stage of development in puberty.
Yeah. I don't like that cover; butts are nice and all, but it doesn't show the actual story or even genre of the manga.
Oh yeah, and the girl's ten.
CNN is very very good at blowing things out of proportion, especially videogames. This is just CNN being CNN. I mean, manga is fucked up. Even something as simple as a cute child doing cute shit like riding a bike or going shopping can get sexed up in the manga industry before you can say "shota". And sexy 14 year olds aren't something native to Japan. Just ask the Pope what the Vatican's age of consent is in The Vatican. It's thirteen. That's several years lower than incredibly poor African countries' age of consents.
Obviously, this is a big problem, and has been for a while, and you can trust CNN to get pissy about this. But I don't think manga fans are doing enough; doesn't matter what kind of manga or what specific fandom, there's freaky shit like this that has gotten mangaka after mangaka in trouble and given manga a bad name. And Doll Fall 2's cover certainly isn't helping.
Obvioisly, Japan has a very alien culture. It's kind of like how Australia and New Zealand had little contact without the outside world, and so they have animals with pouches and three vaginas that can't walk backwards, which when compared to the outside world's animals, just look fucked up.
Without Christian values or western influence, Japan has grown into what it was in the 50's. Granted, it's still got a very strong culture, but one stilted by the west. I don't neccesarily think this is a bad thing, exactly, but it has some very horrible side effects, decreasing population and the abandonment of traditional villages being the big two problems that have come with wesetern influence.
On the other hand, Japan cracking down on the age of consent is one of the better things that have happened, and the repopulation and popularity of manga around the 1940s and 50s also being strong points. Really, this is an issue that has a fair bit too do with both, but certain aspects are mutual to both. I don't think cartoon 11 year olds fucking is right, and in many cases the "it's part of their culture" part is sometimes justified (like Sailor Moon. Kind of) and also unjustified. (every creepy guro loli manga that litters the bookshelves of stores)
The most offensive part of this, though, is how it handles women. In a shounen or shoujo manga, you'll see girls with rather childish features; big foreheads, big eyes... they're generally pretty and weirdly thin. Because they're 16. 16 year olds haven't developed. As such, art styles geared more towards older audiences shed these traits, obviously, and look more realistic and have their characters look more adult.
Usually. That doesn't mean that women are exempt from this; they still have triangle mouths, big droopy eyes, pentagonal heads, horrible anatomy and insanely big hair, and all that negative stuff we associate with manga. To summarise my point in one image:
I couldn't actually find the manga this was drawn for. And I don't want to.
So, it's offensive to women for depicting them as sexy kid dolls, it's offensive to children for giving adults pornography fetishizing them, and it's offensive to readers because nobody would want to read that shit.
Oh yeah, and the girl's ten.
CNN is very very good at blowing things out of proportion, especially videogames. This is just CNN being CNN. I mean, manga is fucked up. Even something as simple as a cute child doing cute shit like riding a bike or going shopping can get sexed up in the manga industry before you can say "shota". And sexy 14 year olds aren't something native to Japan. Just ask the Pope what the Vatican's age of consent is in The Vatican. It's thirteen. That's several years lower than incredibly poor African countries' age of consents.
Obviously, this is a big problem, and has been for a while, and you can trust CNN to get pissy about this. But I don't think manga fans are doing enough; doesn't matter what kind of manga or what specific fandom, there's freaky shit like this that has gotten mangaka after mangaka in trouble and given manga a bad name. And Doll Fall 2's cover certainly isn't helping.
Obvioisly, Japan has a very alien culture. It's kind of like how Australia and New Zealand had little contact without the outside world, and so they have animals with pouches and three vaginas that can't walk backwards, which when compared to the outside world's animals, just look fucked up.
Without Christian values or western influence, Japan has grown into what it was in the 50's. Granted, it's still got a very strong culture, but one stilted by the west. I don't neccesarily think this is a bad thing, exactly, but it has some very horrible side effects, decreasing population and the abandonment of traditional villages being the big two problems that have come with wesetern influence.
On the other hand, Japan cracking down on the age of consent is one of the better things that have happened, and the repopulation and popularity of manga around the 1940s and 50s also being strong points. Really, this is an issue that has a fair bit too do with both, but certain aspects are mutual to both. I don't think cartoon 11 year olds fucking is right, and in many cases the "it's part of their culture" part is sometimes justified (like Sailor Moon. Kind of) and also unjustified. (every creepy guro loli manga that litters the bookshelves of stores)
The most offensive part of this, though, is how it handles women. In a shounen or shoujo manga, you'll see girls with rather childish features; big foreheads, big eyes... they're generally pretty and weirdly thin. Because they're 16. 16 year olds haven't developed. As such, art styles geared more towards older audiences shed these traits, obviously, and look more realistic and have their characters look more adult.
Usually. That doesn't mean that women are exempt from this; they still have triangle mouths, big droopy eyes, pentagonal heads, horrible anatomy and insanely big hair, and all that negative stuff we associate with manga. To summarise my point in one image:
I couldn't actually find the manga this was drawn for. And I don't want to.
So, it's offensive to women for depicting them as sexy kid dolls, it's offensive to children for giving adults pornography fetishizing them, and it's offensive to readers because nobody would want to read that shit.
While I can agree with some of your points and understand your concerns, I have a problem with your proposed methodology.Lil devils x said:
To begin, we're still not sure exactly what pedophilia is. I mean, obviously we know how it manifests, but the root cause and whether or not it's a disorder as it's commonly classified or a rather unfortunate sexual orientation is still a subject of debate. And to date, no effective treatment has been found, suggesting (in my mind) that it's probably an orientation. Now, say you happen to be someone who is mostly "normal." Only problem is, you're also a closet pedophile. Well, that's some tough love there, but despite the troubling attractions your body is subjecting you to, you know and agree that touching kids is wrong and would never do something so disgusting. Except you still have a sex drive and it's getting kind of distracting. Well, obviously acting on them is straight out, as is actual child porn, but hey, there's still a wealth of fictional depictions to act as an outlet. It's still gross and all, but no one is getting hurt, you're smart enough to tell the difference between fiction and reality, and it does the trick. Except no, suddenly it's all gone due to a blanket ban, and you've lost your outlet.
Well. Now what?
The second problem I see is that banning problematic material has not been proven effective to control it. More often than not, those with an inclination towards it will just be driven to seek alternate, shadier sources. I'll give you an example: prohibition. Now, we can all agree that alcoholism is wrong, right? Not drinking, but alcoholism. And there are people who are repulsed by alcohol, people who just don't like it, people who have a few drinks here and there without problem, people who drink fairly heavily but still know their limits, and people with a serious problem. And many of those people are predisposed toward that behavior but live in a society where they're bombarded with depictions of alcohol: commercials, advertisements, TV shows, movies, wine lists, beer aisles, and a cooler at every party. Heck, many people will think you strange for not drinking and will pressure you to do so. And as a result, we now have a lot of messed up alcoholics and the people they've hurt. Well, what are we to do? We do have treatments and programs for such things, but alcoholics usually don't enter such programs without a lot of coercion and still have a hard time staying on the wagon. After all, alcohol is everywhere. Well, we could try banning it to remove the temptation...except we already tried that and it didn't work out instead, we got a thriving criminal business selling rather dangerous drinks and an overtaxed police force trying and failing to stop themn
Let's see:
Very young girls on the cover? Check.
Girls in an intimate or provocative pose? Check.
Cleavage? Check.
Ass cheeks? Check.
Upskirt/panty shot? Check.
Yeah...I can't imagine why they'd show that manga cover to demonstrate child pornography.
As for the contents of the comic, egh. Given the intimate nature of some of the acts of violence against some of the younger characters, and much of the intentionally provocative imagery of the younger characters, one could argue that it's a milder version of torture porn.
I'm not entirely sure I would. (yet) But one easily could.
That said, CNN is way off base here. While there certainly are examples of manga and anime that fit into their alarmist view, quite a lot more are anything but. Really, outside of loli this sort of thing rarely exists.
This issue is that loli is becoming far too popular and prevalent.
Or, as a poster above me put it:
Very young girls on the cover? Check.
Girls in an intimate or provocative pose? Check.
Cleavage? Check.
Ass cheeks? Check.
Upskirt/panty shot? Check.
Yeah...I can't imagine why they'd show that manga cover to demonstrate child pornography.
As for the contents of the comic, egh. Given the intimate nature of some of the acts of violence against some of the younger characters, and much of the intentionally provocative imagery of the younger characters, one could argue that it's a milder version of torture porn.
I'm not entirely sure I would. (yet) But one easily could.
That said, CNN is way off base here. While there certainly are examples of manga and anime that fit into their alarmist view, quite a lot more are anything but. Really, outside of loli this sort of thing rarely exists.
This issue is that loli is becoming far too popular and prevalent.
Or, as a poster above me put it:
Seventh Actuality said:
As long as its not real I don't care about whether or not it is offensive. We don't need moral guardians vilifying people who commit victim-less "crimes". I've seen some fucked up and disgusting media but that doesn't mean we should ban it entirely. Torture porn movies are a fine example of something I personally find more revolting than this.
And if someone thinks that people who consume this kind of pornography are more likely to actually commit the horrible crime itself should then also believe that violence in the media makes people inherently more violent. There is no evidence of this either way. Correlation does not equal causation. And I think most people have the mental capacity to differentiate between fact and fiction.
Even though it is distasteful to say the least, I cannot think of a justifiable and logical reason to ban it.
PS: Pff, I didn't know possession of child porn was not illegal in Japan until earlier this month. That's all kinds of fucked up. Glad they banned that at least.
And if someone thinks that people who consume this kind of pornography are more likely to actually commit the horrible crime itself should then also believe that violence in the media makes people inherently more violent. There is no evidence of this either way. Correlation does not equal causation. And I think most people have the mental capacity to differentiate between fact and fiction.
Even though it is distasteful to say the least, I cannot think of a justifiable and logical reason to ban it.
PS: Pff, I didn't know possession of child porn was not illegal in Japan until earlier this month. That's all kinds of fucked up. Glad they banned that at least.
The comparison to violent videogames falls apart ENTIRELY where sexuality is concerned. If you're turned on by men, you're probably not going to enjoy lesbian porn. If you're turned on by women, you won't watch gay porn. What you entirely miss here is that everybody has violent urges and those urges can be carried out - not everybody views things as sexual unless those things are sexualised. Why do you believe that somebody who finds themselves attracted to cartoon children won't be attracted to real children? When that attraction can be fed, it can flower, and if an attraction to the same sex flowers, some consensual sex is had. If an attraction to a child flowers...nobody benefits.Zira said:
Violence and sex cannot be treated as the same thing. They don't even come close.
Forgive me if I misunderstand, but since everyone has violent urges shouldn't the so called negative results of exposure to violent media be much more evident? If anyone can be affected by violent depictions then one can assume that there would be a lot of evidence to a causal link between exposure to violent media and real violent acts. Which there isn't.Thyunda said:
And since there isn't any link, how is sexuality any different from other basic instincts? Why should people who consume this questionable pornographic material be any more prone to subsequent acts than those who are exposed to any other media catering to other baser urges?
Not a BDSM fan I seeThyunda said:
I'd just like to point out that the real story here is the chilling effects surrounding it. Images in the OP are gone. Google Image Search will show me tons of black and white pages from inside the manga, but it won't show the cover, even if I include the word cover in the search terms with a plus and everything.
The Conclusion? Web hosts are so afraid of being labeled child pronographers that they pulled the cover as soon as CNN started talking about it. (Or Google's filtering the search results at the source. Possibly because people saw the CNN story and then reported all the cover images, and the process is automated so nobody ever actually stopped and looked at the images. Either way. Not porn. Cover censored. Chilling Effects.)
Which of course makes it harder to just look at the image and see whether or not we think CNN was justified in labeling it pornography.
You have to ask, why is the anime witch hunt making a comeback NOW of all times? Personally, I'm wondering if the whole thing might not be racially motivated. Back in the 90s when it was nothing but rich white boys on the internet, they would post thread after thread of manga on 4chan and nobody batted an eye. But today, black people start using anime hashtags on twitter, and everyone loses their fucking minds. 9_9
I'm glad I went through my anime phase in high school and got tired of it. Now sounds like a terrible time to be into anything Japanese. Tred lightly around that new Sailor Moon remake, folks. The NSA will probably put you on a watchlist.
What's that, you live outside the US? ESPECIALLY if you outside the US!
The Conclusion? Web hosts are so afraid of being labeled child pronographers that they pulled the cover as soon as CNN started talking about it. (Or Google's filtering the search results at the source. Possibly because people saw the CNN story and then reported all the cover images, and the process is automated so nobody ever actually stopped and looked at the images. Either way. Not porn. Cover censored. Chilling Effects.)
Which of course makes it harder to just look at the image and see whether or not we think CNN was justified in labeling it pornography.
You have to ask, why is the anime witch hunt making a comeback NOW of all times? Personally, I'm wondering if the whole thing might not be racially motivated. Back in the 90s when it was nothing but rich white boys on the internet, they would post thread after thread of manga on 4chan and nobody batted an eye. But today, black people start using anime hashtags on twitter, and everyone loses their fucking minds. 9_9
I'm glad I went through my anime phase in high school and got tired of it. Now sounds like a terrible time to be into anything Japanese. Tred lightly around that new Sailor Moon remake, folks. The NSA will probably put you on a watchlist.
What's that, you live outside the US? ESPECIALLY if you outside the US!