Corporal Punishment: Have we let othe kid's down on discipline?

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spartan231490

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Jan 14, 2010
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Blitzwing said:
Bezza27 said:
We should have it. In my school the other week a 15 year old boy punched a female english teacher in the face. Now she couldn't defend herself cos the smug little shit would have reported her for abuse. So she had to take the punch. Now if we were living about 60 years ago the kids punishment would be god knows how many beatings and monthds of weekend detention. But in todays society what did he get. A week off school (alright my school call it exclusion but I call it reward for bad behaviour) and when he got back a week in isolation(so no lessons just sitting in a room)

And another anecdote, I was punched in school last week. I have one hell of a bruise. Now if i were to go punch the guy that did it i'd be the one in the wrong. Of course all he got was a week off.
I?m afraid anecdotal evidence isn?t good enough.
Why not? Anecdotal evidence was the birth of modern science, and is usually more than enough to draw the correct conclusion. For example, we have absolutely no proof of gravity except anecdotal evidence. We have theories about what causes it(graviton) but we can't find any. The only proof of gravity is that it's there.
Blitzwing: My school had similar occurances. One kid threw another to the ground and started beating/kicking him and only stopped when the biggest kid in our school physically pulled him away. The teacher, being unable to do anything, ran down the hallway screaming for help. The kid who got his ass kicked was suspended for the rest of the day (WTF) and the kid who did the beating got the rest of the day and the next as what you call exclusion, and 2 days of what you call isolation.
Schools are out of control because they have no effective means of punishment short of expulsion, and policies like no child left behind make that a bureaucratic nightmare.
 

Alumit

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Wardnath said:
Azure-Supernova said:
I've got a bit of a split opinion on this. See, corporal punishment is a great way to teach kids that when they do bad things, bad things happen to them. So for getting caught cheating, bullying and harassing teachers and fellow pupils there need to be consequences. This is where I see corporal punishment being an effective teaching tool.

This is the second hand. No-one deserves respect right off the bat. I don't care whether you're a war veteran, a police officer, a teacher; you still have to earn my respect as much as I have to earn yours. I adopted this view at an early age and it's never steered me wrong. I have never disrespected someone who has shown me equal respect.
Age should have nothing to do with it. When I meet another individual I treat them with the same respect I'd treat any other human being, my age or otherwise. If they don't respect me, then that respect stops. No amount of beatings will change this.

To sum up my opinion:

You can beat discipline and penalise for doing wrong, but you can't beat respect into someone.
I was gonna write something similar, but you've written it far better than I ever could. Kudos.
I second this. Very well written ;D It's what I've always been taught and what I will always exercise towards other people simply because it works : )
 

Blind Sight

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May 16, 2010
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Yes, because responding with violence teaches children SUCH a wonderful lesson. Not to mention the fact that later on those actions can result in a child having a hatred for authority figures (at least, that's what happened to me).

Punishment is simple really, find what the child enjoys, then take it away for a specific period of time. This makes it appear that you control them and can dictate how they interact, a far more fitting scenario. My parents raised me and my siblings in a very strict household, and what happened? My brother, the one they hit the most is now very rebellious and largely hates them. I remember the teachers I had in Catholic school and high school, if they had the right to beat me they would've done so for completely incorrect reasons, such as if I questioned the existence of God (which got me a suspension instead but that's a different story). So no, I'm against corporal punishment, because the people who are given access to it abuse the power.

Not to mention I'm the kind of person who would try to hit a teacher right back. I got no problem with someone punishing me, but as soon as you're violent towards me, well, I feel I'm well within my rights to respond to that violence.
 

HT_Black

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That depends on how old they are, I think. In my opinion, they're fair game as soon as they hit ten years old, because by that point they've (hopefully) learned why hitting people is the last line of defense rather than the first. Any younger than that, however, and it just starts to feel wrong...
 

Aris Khandr

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Dastardly said:
The problem with this mentality in children is, I'm sorry, they're not qualified to determine who is or is not worthy of respect. The person in authority (like, say, a teacher) has already had to prove they deserve respect by:

1. Graduating high school (and graduating well)
2. Getting accepted to a university
3. Passing the courses at the university (and doing well)
4. Receiving admission into an upper-level teacher education program within the university.
5. Passing all of that, too.
6. Completing a program of coursework that includes rigorous study of child psychology, learning theory, and things other than just "a whole lot of math" or something.
7. Applying for, testing for, and receiving a teaching license.
8. Applying for, interviewing for, and receiving a job.
9. At least quarterly evaluations with very strict criteria, which determine continued employment.

The fact that they're standing in the classroom means they're doing something right, and many people whose qualifications far exceed any student's have already weighed in on that. A child, even the smartest of them, cannot dependably separate "Do not like" from "Is not good." If a teacher asks them to do something they'd prefer not to do, they think the teacher is stupid and is 'disrespecting' them, and often they'll force the teacher's hand.
I'm going to disagree with that. When I was in high school I had a Geometry teacher who frequently would add 2 and 3 to get 4. He simply didn't have a clue what he was teaching. The only reason he stayed on the staff is because he also coached the football team, and our school made a lot of money off of said team. In no way was he ever worthy of anyone's respect in that classroom.
 

Cain_Zeros

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A lack of corporal punishment doesn't mean a lack of respect for authority or other people. My parents lay a hand on me, but I've had many people comment on how respectful I am.
 

DTWolfwood

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Oct 20, 2009
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baker80 said:
Beating your children is really only going to teach them one thing: Violence is perfectly acceptable, as long as you were really angry when you did it.
i've always find this form of logic a bit hard to swallow. It boils down to thinking corporeal punishment as the same as abuse.

Ask anyone who have gotten some DISCIPLINARY whippings in their childhood and i can bet you most if not all of them will only ever tell you that its only ever happened once or twice in their lives (assuming they don't tell they were an out of control kid and did get punished a lot more XD) You don't hit the child for frivolous offenses but when they repeated do the wrong thing over and over again, one hard spanking/whipping is often enough to set them straight. Just the fact that they now know you are capable of it means they'll be more cautious. (they become more sly or actually become a straight laced individual, either way their outward appearance become more respectable)

I've never associated the punishment as saying its ok to use violence as a solution to a problem, nor have i ever met any sane adult to think so who were also disciplined as such as a child.

its the whole thinking that a childs mind can't associate cause and effect in the proper context disturbs me. They get caught doing something very wrong, they are hit in the butt by a belt that causes a stinging pain, and you tell me they don't simply associate the pain as a result of their actions? i'd really like to put more faith in to a child's intellect.
But yes repeated beatings will certainly foster that kind of thinking in a kid. But in those cases we are talking more about domestic violence and not about corporeal punishment.

edit: forgot to mention this, if you did your job right as a parent you never even have to resort to this. But again parents aren't infallible nor can they govern over all the influences in the childs life.
 

carletonman

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Oct 29, 2010
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There is a simple solution: send the kids to work in the linen mills or coal mines if they misbehave. . In all seriousness though, I was spanked ONCE as a child, and learned my lesson.
 

Danish rage

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Danish rage said:
No just no, any sort of violence against children are wrong. Just so wrong.

Violence expresses itself when you are out of words, and if you´re out of words with a kid.. well then, i hate to say it, get smarter.
Ages 1-9, I agree with you. 10-14? Some need it. I have these hateful tweens in my neighborhood throwing rocks at strangers and laughing because we can't do anything about it. Some older kids need a lesson in respect. Especially if their parents don't care/defend the behavior/are generally incompetent. I guess I'm saying it is okay in secondary school. I wouldn't have had to worry. Actually learning from/respecting your elders does wonders.
Yes agreee.

When you turn 14 you stop beeing a child in my eyes and , and where i live you can go on trial as an adult. Actually 16, but in extreeme cases 14.

But there are just no justification for hitting a little child. None.
 

XzarTheMad

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Oct 10, 2008
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believer258 said:
There's a huge difference between "beating", i.e. actually bruising your child, and giving them a painful smack on the bottom when they do something wrong.

Also, let me quote a bit of the article you linked:

"They are attentive to their children?s needs and concerns, and will typically forgive and teach instead of punishing if a child falls short"

You see, in theory, this might work perfectly. In theory. However, in reality - thousands of years of mothers spanking their children, that reality - it just doesn't. If you forgive a child for every wrong he does, particularly complete disrespect for everything, then he'll expect forgiveness from everyone for every wrong that he does. You can sit down and explain to him/her that what he/she did is wrong all you want to. It will not work. Sorry, that's just how life is.

Beating, as in bruising and bashing your child, will make him/her hate you and will make the child rebellious. Note that I'm not talking about that, but a smack on the bottom that smarts will generally teach a child that what they did was wrong. Obviously there are some special cases, that's why I said "generally".
No there's not. You inflict pain, the level of pain is irrelevant. Even more so, you humiliate them, and associate yourself with pain and humiliation. If you want respect, you're only getting fear and perhaps obedience. Is that what we're going for, military discipline and blind obedience out of fear? That is not respect. There's respect, there's common decency, and there's obedient discipline. Only one of those things are taught by hitting your child.

Please educate yourself. What you suggest is another style altogether: Authoritative parents still punish their children, through taking away privileges. Most of all, however, they teach. That's what you seem to miss, it's not about forgiving and letting it slide. You teach them why it's wrong, you let them know you're disappointed in them. That is where the parenting comes from. I would suggest you read the rest of the article, as it expressly has a part on the indulgent parenting style, which fits your idea of not doing anything. I agree, that is a worse way of parenting than hitting your kid and instilling fear in them, but that's not what I'm endorsing.

Most of all this comes down to the belief that many of those in favor of hitting children have, namely that children will try their hardest to cause trouble and be a nuisance. To this, I suggest that these people are terrible parents. Y'see, parenting is not having good intentions or clear ideas. It's about living and truly being a good person that the child can learn from. The very basis of a child's personality is formed in the early years, 0-5, by observing their parents and emulating them. They pick up on everything, even things you are not aware of, and as such your child can be seen as an imprint of your own behaviour. If you reach the level where your child is being disrespectful to everything and being an unruly little brat, you only have yourself to blame.

It may teach a kid that something was wrong, but not why it was wrong, which is really what is important here. If you are able to make the child understand the wrongness of something, smacking them shouldn't even be necessary. On a related note, all you'll teach them is that violence is acceptable. And when they grow up, they'll keep that impression. Let me ask you, when do you consider it acceptable to hit another grown up person, save when they attack you first? If hitting adults is not alright, why should hitting children be, and why would you want to teach them violence as a tool for handling conflicts?
 

ChairmanFluffy

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Aug 26, 2010
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People who hit their kids need to be slapped themself. I work with children for a living, and if i ever found out one of the parents was hitting their child i would get their ass thrown straight to jail
 

XzarTheMad

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believer258 said:
Once again, thousands of years of smart bottoms hold more proof and evidence than everything you said in that wall of text.

On a side note, do you have children of your own? I don't, but my parents whooped me when I got in trouble. I always understand why and always knew not to do it again. My brother, however, hasn't been whooped/spanked/smacked/whatever much in life - some, not much - and whenever something doesn't go his way, he yells and fusses and pitches a temper tantrum at 14.

Fuck methods, whooping is a tried and true form of punishment.
What evidence? That the species survived in spite of people hitting their children? You can't compare 17th century society to modern lifestyles. The current way of living dates back only to around the 1960's. You have no proof that the children who were beaten were happy, independent members of a free-thinking society. Previous societies encouraged marrying girls at age 12, kids working in coal mines from age 7, beating wives, servants and prisoners. Are you a proponent of all that, simply because the species survived?

Your anecdotal tales mean nothing. Basing your opinion on "I got beat, I am fine, my brother didn't, he's a mess" is a lot less effective than reffering to the psychological studies done in both America, Germany, England, Australia and almost all other parts of the world. Interestingly, they all come to the conclusions that beating children is not beneficial. Methods, as they are, are based on rigorous studies in many different societies. There's a reason it's a crime and percieved as violence in all of the western world: It's an outdated method from a time when we didn't know any better.

And what difference does it make if I have kids? You don't, yet you don't have a problem speaking your opinion. Why would it be any different for me? Because I wasn't beaten for doing dumb shit, so I "don't know what it's like"?

Tried, yes, true, no. You didn't become a functioning member of society because you were beaten, you did so in spite of it.
 

GothmogII

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Apr 6, 2008
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Blitzwing said:
spartan231490 said:
Blitzwing said:
I?m afraid anecdotal evidence isn?t good enough.
Why not? Anecdotal evidence was the birth of modern science, and is usually more than enough to draw the correct conclusion. For example, we have absolutely no proof of gravity except anecdotal evidence. We have theories about what causes it(graviton) but we can't find any. The only proof of gravity is that it's there.
mare.

No it wasn?t the theory of gravity was proven through years of study not by stories.
Science defines anecdotal evidence as
"Information that is not based on facts or careful study

"Non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts

"Reports or observations of usually unscientific observers

"Casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis"

"Information passed along by word-of-mouth but not documented scientifically"

So no anecdotal evidence was not ? the birth of modern science.?
That made me chuckle, I have to wonder though, if there really are people who think Mr.Newton based his entire theory on that old apple story. x)

As to the OP, as always, different strokes. It's tempting to think that there's a bright shining path that will lead to a good child and a model citizen (whatever the hell that means), but, like much of life, everything is a maze, or a dark cavern, or a jagged mountain.

What I found curious though, is that you mention that you -haven't- had to physically discipline your daughter. From whence did you come to the conclusion that other parent's aren't using corporal punishment on their children? I mean, have you talked to other parents about how they discipline their children? And moreover, if you note that you've haven't had to use such discipline on your own daughter, does that not imply that you at least are doing things, well...right?
 

Busdriver580

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Dec 22, 2009
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The problem with American education is that 75% of the people round me just don't give a shit. I'm not sure corporal punishment would fix that, corporal punishment doesn't work because it hurts, it works because it's degrading. Apparently we're beyond anything other than a detention slip though.

To clarify, I don't support corporal punishment (it legitimizes violence as a solution), but i support more degrading punishments then our prudish sensibilities let us have.