Corporal Punishment: Have we let othe kid's down on discipline?

[DevilWolf47]

It's a naughty subject. My parents used to smack me around. Even back then to a ten year old it was obvious that they were impotent fucks who beat me because their fucked up ideas of child upbringing included brainwashing that didn't work on me and i wouldn't change my opinion of their bullshit book regardless of how much it hurt when i tried to take a shit. In response, when i was 13 i started learning Krav Maga, knowing that corporal punishment was in fact illegal and that if they tried it again i would be free to defend myself.
Except by the time i was taller than both my parents and they knew i instinctively aimed for the liver, so my training mostly went to waste.

Okay, that being said, i now am a professional and have to go with what the studies say.
Studies say CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IS A STUPID FUCKING IDEA!! All it does is contribute to a child's aggression when they're older. It doesn't breed respect, it breeds fear and resentment. The problem is not with the lack of corporal punishment but the fact that some people who reproduced can barely handle the responsibility of a checking account, let alone multiple children.

 

[Nyaliva]

Also, I'd like to find someone who was spanked as a child who doesn't think it was a good idea. I'm not saying they don't exist but there are a lot of people saying "I was spanked as a child and I think it's okay". Maybe the ones who think it isn't all became murderers!!!!

It wouldn?t matter since it would just be hearsay, like your Anecdote.

This is an online forum, not a fucking courtroom. Nothing anyone says here can be 100% proven.

Also, at what point does a set of useless anecdotes become a survey? Because we seem to have a fair few opinions here.

A thousand should do it. I'm starting a Poll: If you were spanked as a child, do you think it made you a better person? I'll edit with a link once I've started it.

Never since this site doesn?t represent everyone and the stories here cannot be proven.

But psychiatric tests can't be wholly proven and they can't represent everyone. If you really want, I'll start a survey and send it out everywhere and let you know the results.

Oh and by the way, I already did: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.261615-Poll-If-you-were-spanked-as-a-child-do-you-think-it-made-you-a-better-person

 

[Lyri]

If i didnt respect someone id get the same treatment as for a window break

Well, I'd assume so but I think you're misunderstanding my point. First we'd have to define age to really clarify the point, we could be talking about different age brackets here but my point was that a smack isn't "I must respect people" to a child, it's "calling someone a poopface is bad I get smacked".
To a youngster it's pretty black and white.

Allow me to be one of those people that would slap their child across the back of the legs or on the butt if they were misbehaving.
It worked for me when I was growing up, I learnt that doing wrong equals a quick smack and that was that.

Again can any of you actually prove that it works without resorting to anecdotal evidence?
The majority of psychiatric associations say that corporal punishment doesn?t work and have presented studies to prove this.

Considering I haven't read this thread, I'm just going to point to a lack of a link in your post (inb4Wikipedia) and say no I can't but good for psychiatric associations?

 

[b3nn3tt]

-snip-

I agree, I think that there should be some consistency between what the child does and what the parent does as a result. But a lot of the time that isn't possible, but I think that having a naughty step is a perfectly viable solution. I can see how this would be much harder in a school environment, but I think detention serves a similar purpose. Or perhaps the removal of privileges; if somebody consistently misbehaves then maybe they aren't allowed ona class trip or something like that

I think the most important thing is that the child knows why what they did was wrong, because without that they are simply following orders from an authority figure without being allowed any mind of their own

 

[Yan007]

-snip-

I agree, I think that there should be some consistency between what the child does and what the parent does as a result. But a lot of the time that isn't possible, but I think that having a naughty step is a perfectly viable solution. I can see how this would be much harder in a school environment, but I think detention serves a similar purpose. Or perhaps the removal of privileges; if somebody consistently misbehaves then maybe they aren't allowed ona class trip or something like that

I think the most important thing is that the child knows why what they did was wrong, because without that they are simply following orders from an authority figure without being allowed any mind of their own

Exactly.

 

[SadakoMoose]

The children of today are no more out of control than they were 10, 20, 30, or 40 years ago.
It's only because of the internet news and the 24 hour yellow press that we see it more.
Ultimately children are often better off in environments that encourage learning and the exploration of the world, rather than just a system of rewards and punishments. What's important is to foster intrinsic values, such learning for it's own sake, rather than through intimidation. Personally, I think that people tend to see crisis where there is none, and this whole "rising juvenile delinquency" thing is no exception. It's all just perception and stereotype created by a combination of our increasingly sensationalistic news media along with the increasing alienation many people feel about the world around them. It's hard not to think that there's something wrong with people "these days" when you have the television and the internet constantly reminding you about all the bad and stupid things that happen in the world.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I was never hit growing up, yes I was fairly spoiled, but I never strayed off into breaking the law or nothing. Going to college currently to get my English degree.

 

[Nyaliva]

Never since this site doesn?t represent everyone and the stories here cannot be proven.

We don't need absolute proof seeing as whether you use corporal punishment or not is a matter of personal opinion, an opinion poll will give us a ballpark figure on who'd use it. Now this isn't a balanced sample, you're correct there, but as long as we accept that problem and balance it with results from another survey it'd be useful. So take the percentage from our average age group and see how much we deviate from the norm.

To be honest I see where you're coming from but eventually you have to acknowledge that we don't have the resources to do better.

Actually, I was just thinking that, considering we're just people and not a computer or an organisation all we really have is anecdotes. So you're either waiting for one of us to pull a psychiatric study out of our behind at 12 in the morning (or at least it is here) or your making rules which are impossible to win against. Either way I have to say you're being just a little bit of a jerk.

 

[quantumsoul]

I never got hit as a kid. I turned out fine. Maybe some kids need physical discipline. I think rewarding good behavior and ignoring them when they're bad should be tried first.

I've owned parrots and negative reinforcement is imposable. It will only psychologically damage the animal and cause it to fear and hate you. I know kids and parrots are different but not so much that such a consideration shouldn't be made.

 

[Nyaliva]

The children of today are no more out of control than they were 10, 20, 30, or 40 years ago.
It's only because of the internet news and the 24 hour yellow press that we see it more.
Ultimately children are often better off in environments that encourage learning and the exploration of the world, rather than just a system of rewards and punishments. What's important is to foster intrinsic values, such learning for it's own sake, rather than through intimidation. Personally, I think that people tend to see crisis where there is none, and this whole "rising juvenile delinquency" thing is no exception. It's all just perception and stereotype created by a combination of our increasingly sensationalistic news media along with the increasing alienation many people feel about the world around them. It's hard not to think that there's something wrong with people "these days" when you have the television and the internet constantly reminding you about all the bad and stupid things that happen in the world.

I have considered this point but every time I do I remember that I was scolded if I said a swear word as were my friends and so we found it hilarious sitting on the oval saying "doodle". This was in about grade 3. When was in grade 7 I decided to return to my grade 1 playground and bathe in the nostalgia (as well as see my grade 1 buddy) and while I walked through the area near the classroom I heard two kids swear. One said ass and the other, I think, said shit (I can't quite remember). I was utterly appalled and this notion has been reinforced every since. On buses, at the shops, everywhere I go I hear people swearing like their trying for the new Guinness world record for greatest average number of swears spoken during your lifetime. This is made worse when I see them smoking and spitting at the bus stop, then borrowing cigarettes from each other on the bus and talking about "chicks". Seriously, I saw three kids doing exactly this and none of them could have been over 13.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I see two things coming out of this. One is that the kid gets the picture and learns to behave themselves so they won't get punished. Mission accomplished. Or the kid resents being hurt and rather than learning "Don't do bad things" instead learns "Don't get caught". It could be different for each kid so it would be hard to tell if corporal punishment would be effective. Plus there could be some side effects for using physical violence on them regularly (as in when you punish them).

Whether you use corporal punishment or not I'm all for being strict with your kids when the time comes for it. If I ever have kids I plan to try to be accepting and work with them, but there will be times when they've crossed a line and there will be consequences.

 

[Dastardly]

I've got a bit of a split opinion on this. See, corporal punishment is a great way to teach kids that when they do bad things, bad things happen to them. So for getting caught cheating, bullying and harassing teachers and fellow pupils there need to be consequences. This is where I see corporal punishment being an effective teaching tool.

This is the second hand. No-one deserves respect right off the bat. I don't care whether you're a war veteran, a police officer, a teacher; you still have to earn my respect as much as I have to earn yours. I adopted this view at an early age and it's never steered me wrong. I have never disrespected someone who has shown me equal respect.
Age should have nothing to do with it. When I meet another individual I treat them with the same respect I'd treat any other human being, my age or otherwise. If they don't respect me, then that respect stops. No amount of beatings will change this.

To sum up my opinion:

You can beat discipline and penalise for doing wrong, but you can't beat respect into someone.

The problem with this mentality in children is, I'm sorry, they're not qualified to determine who is or is not worthy of respect. The person in authority (like, say, a teacher) has already had to prove they deserve respect by:

1. Graduating high school (and graduating well)
2. Getting accepted to a university
3. Passing the courses at the university (and doing well)
4. Receiving admission into an upper-level teacher education program within the university.
5. Passing all of that, too.
6. Completing a program of coursework that includes rigorous study of child psychology, learning theory, and things other than just "a whole lot of math" or something.
7. Applying for, testing for, and receiving a teaching license.
8. Applying for, interviewing for, and receiving a job.
9. At least quarterly evaluations with very strict criteria, which determine continued employment.

The fact that they're standing in the classroom means they're doing something right, and many people whose qualifications far exceed any student's have already weighed in on that. A child, even the smartest of them, cannot dependably separate "Do not like" from "Is not good." If a teacher asks them to do something they'd prefer not to do, they think the teacher is stupid and is 'disrespecting' them, and often they'll force the teacher's hand.

Kids buck the system TO BUCK THE SYSTEM. It has nothing to do with rational grievances borne from a wide bank of experience that informs a carefully formulated opinion--it's just "I don't like this, so it is not fair." It is natural, so it is to be expected. That doesn't mean it should be excused. It's seriously a brain development thing. A kid can be very smart, but they can't force the prefrontal cortex to develop any faster than normal, sorry.

As adults, this can be different. There are still times when an adult just has to "suck it up" and deal with a boss who's a jerk. Because, hey, world's not perfect. He's the boss. Work for him or quit. But there's more of an expectation of that equality. Problem is that kids expect that now, for having done nothing.

Which is the point here--the "No one automatically deserves respect, it must be proven" mentality is only ever used one way. The kid feels they deserve proof, because they believe themselves equal. Problem: The teacher (in this example) has already issue mountains of proof. It wasn't addressed to the kid, but it was demonstrated to the people that make the decisions. The kid? They've just shown up. So the burden of proof is on the kid. They are not starting off on an even footing.

Or, if the kids are, we're saying that the kids automatically deserve a level of respect equal to what an authority figure like this deserves for all the hoops they had to jump through just to be in that position... in which case we're saying people do automatically deserve respect, which means the teacher was right anyway. Paradox.

 

[Toaster Hunter]

The problem is not that kids need to be hit, but that there needs to be consequences for their actions. At work I constantly see some obnoxious kid running around, knocking stuff over, being a pain, and the parent does nothing. Even worse, they may threaten to do something but never carry it out, which will only encourage future misbehavior.

The key is consistency and a clear set of consequences for their actions, physical or otherwise.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

I was very rarely given the occasional smack growing up, and it was entirely fair enough. It was never out of anger, which I think is the most important part, and it was never particularly hard.

The surprise of a swat on the bottom and 10 seconds of a stinging feeling isn't gonna to warp your kid into Charlie Manson, so long as it's a last resort, and that they understand it's a possibility, and that you still love them, but you can't allow them to do what they were doing.

I don't accept using belts, canes etc, that's just a way for a bad parent to unleash their anger onto a child thru violence.

It should also be immediate, if you find out they've been stealing from your purse for example, hours or days after they did it, then they're probably not going to connect the smack with the crime. Far better to withhold pocket money, or take something of theirs away,to show them that there are downsides to stealing.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

The children of today are no more out of control than they were 10, 20, 30, or 40 years ago.
It's only because of the internet news and the 24 hour yellow press that we see it more.
Ultimately children are often better off in environments that encourage learning and the exploration of the world, rather than just a system of rewards and punishments. What's important is to foster intrinsic values, such learning for it's own sake, rather than through intimidation. Personally, I think that people tend to see crisis where there is none, and this whole "rising juvenile delinquency" thing is no exception. It's all just perception and stereotype created by a combination of our increasingly sensationalistic news media along with the increasing alienation many people feel about the world around them. It's hard not to think that there's something wrong with people "these days" when you have the television and the internet constantly reminding you about all the bad and stupid things that happen in the world.

Have to agree here, too, I'm not sure kids are much worse, except that parents do seem less likely to be willing to admit their child did something wrong. We're just getting told a lot more about stuff that happens, and being constantly told to fear everything.

Last time I looked, violent and youth crime were both on the way down, and despite the idea that old people are constantly getting mugged and beaten for their pension money, it's the male 25-35 bracket that is most at risk of being a victim of violent crime.

30 years ago, if a kid pushed another kid into a canal, or down a flight of stairs, it would have been considered bullying and dealt with, now it ends up online, and then the news guys get hold of it, and a 'campaign for justice' starts up. Because the whole country hears of it, instead of about 30 people, the national mindset thinks it's happening all over.

 

[spartan231490]

I would like to see a return to corporal punishment for parents, but not so much for schools. It's a parents job to raise/discipline a child, if they feel that a little corporal punishment,(Read: not enough to inflict lasting(read, more than a few hours) pain) is necessary and justified, than they shouldn't face universal scorn. I got spanked when I deserved it as a child, my cousins did too, my parents/aunts/uncles did too, it might not be ideal, but it worked on me and my cousins, and our parents seem to have survived the process as well. Corporal punishment is no where near as bad as our society makes it out to be.

I don't think schools should do it because it shouldn't be a school's responsibility to teach a child how to behave. I think that schools do need some kind of new punishment though, because punishment in middle/high schools(at least in America) has really broken down. They can only punish a kid so badly because suspension is a short vacation, and if they suspend for more than 2 days they have to pay someone a teachers wage to tutor the kid in his home. Detentions can be skipped and doesn't take anything from the kid cuz he just does his homework or something. Anyway, that's a different subject.

tl;dr Corporal punishment: yes for parents, no for anyone else.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Which is the point here--the "No one automatically deserves respect, it must be proven" mentality is only ever used one way. The kid feels they deserve proof, because they believe themselves equal. Problem: The teacher (in this example) has already issue mountains of proof. It wasn't addressed to the kid, but it was demonstrated to the people that make the decisions. The kid? They've just shown up. So the burden of proof is on the kid. They are not starting off on an even footing.

Or, if the kids are, we're saying that the kids automatically deserve a level of respect equal to what an authority figure like this deserves for all the hoops they had to jump through just to be in that position... in which case we're saying people do automatically deserve respect, which means the teacher was right anyway. Paradox.

I'm talking about a basic level of human respect. That they see and accept that I am a fellow human being as much as I see and accept them.

But even to this point, I will disagree and will argue the toss for this yet again. Hey, I can respect that teachers have had to do a lot of hard work to get where they are today. But in that classroom I don't care about professions. I don't care who knows what and who doesn't.

If I'm not shown a basic level of respect then they won't get it in return. I've made friends and enemies out of teachers with this mentality. Because some understand and will rise to the challenge whilst others will simply lose their rag with me. You can call me disrespectful, I quite probably am in a lot of cases. But as with everything, I've never held much stock in degrees and diplomas, little pieces of paper that tell you what a person has proven they can do. Because I've seen plenty of incapable teachers in my time and I still see them today.

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

Yes, I think corporal punishment should return. Because teachers need to be able to control their students, they have no power whatsoever nowadays.

Problem is, teachers are just as stupid as everyone else. Adding in the fact that alot of them end up hating kids; so I really don't think its fair to give the power to beat the shit out of the kid to a douchebag old man just because he feels like it.

Plus, with the whole 'gangsta' mentality these days, their a pretty damn big chance that the offending teacher will get jumped by the kids buddies in the parking lot.

 

[Dastardly]

But even to this point, I will disagree and will argue the toss for this yet again. Hey, I can respect that teachers have had to do a lot of hard work to get where they are today. But in that classroom I don't care about professions. I don't care who knows what and who doesn't.

If I'm not shown a basic level of respect then they won't get it in return. I've made friends and enemies out of teachers with this mentality. Because some understand and will rise to the challenge whilst others will simply lose their rag with me. You can call me disrespectful, I quite probably am in a lot of cases. But as with everything, I've never held much stock in degrees and diplomas, little pieces of paper that tell you what a person has proven they can do. Because I've seen plenty of incapable teachers in my time and I still see them today.

The problem is that students can't separate the two topics. If you ask a child to do something they don't want to do, because as the teacher you know that it will benefit them in their learning, the kid just sees it as "mean teacher making me do dumb things." They take it personally, and then make it personal. There has to come a point, when you've got THIRTY other kids in the class, where you're not expected to individually explain each decision to each and every member of this little "committee."

And yeah, they'll take offense at being told they don't have a vote. But that doesn't mean it's the teacher "disrespecting them as people." It's just saying that there are THIRTY OTHER PEOPLE in here just as valuable, and time is wasting in needless deliberation. So sit down, open the book, and do the instructions. It's going to make sense later on, just maybe not right now because you don't have the full picture the teacher does. Otherwise, you're opening the door for every kid to filibuster the entire learning process.

And I'm sorry, but even the least capable teacher in a classroom is light years ahead of the brightest student in the room. It's just so easy for the kid to make ridiculous claims about how "dumb" the teacher is, because the kid doesn't see what's going on behind the scenes. There are far too many teachers that people blindly label "incompetent" because those people are willfully ignorant. And then they'll pick one or two examples of a teacher actually being wrong, and pretend like this is happening every minute of the day.

OT: As a teacher, I've had to witness an instance of corporal punishment. My school had the policy, and they needed a teacher to act as witness. I'm 100% pro-spanking (as one option among many for parents), but I'll say there is something wholly unsettling about seeing someone spank a child you know is not theirs. Schools shouldn't be doing it. Instead, send the kid home.