Corporal Punishment: Have we let othe kid's down on discipline?

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b3nn3tt

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Danish rage said:
No just no, any sort of violence against children are wrong. Just so wrong.

Violence expresses itself when you are out of words, and if you´re out of words with a kid.. well then, i hate to say it, get smarter.
Ages 1-9, I agree with you. 10-14? Some need it. I have these hateful tweens in my neighborhood throwing rocks at strangers and laughing because we can't do anything about it. Some older kids need a lesson in respect. Especially if their parents don't care/defend the behavior/are generally incompetent. I guess I'm saying it is okay in secondary school. I wouldn't have had to worry. Actually learning from/respecting your elders does wonders.
But is it not likely that the reason those kids behave like that is because they were never properly disciplined when they were younger? If you can instill a sense of right and wrong, and a knowledge of consequences, into young children, then by the time they reach secondary school they will (hopefully) not behave like that
 

Yan007

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Appleshampoo said:
Living in an area like I do, I see kids no older than 10 swearing at each other, being insulting to people they don't even know and just generally being terrible to live near. Their parents are blind to this fact, even though I'm willing to be the kid is just as bad at home.
I'm only quoting this part although I did read the whole post. I don't want to single you out, but this is a good quote for me to make a point.

I want to begin by stating that I believe that corporal punishment is the worst way to correct problems in society, especially with our children, because it is so inefficient and as studies have shown, the short term benefits are largely outweighted by the negative repercussions. I will touch on that in another post though because I want to talk about something else here.


It takes more than parents to make a good individual. As a teacher, you could say I am biased in both my perception and approach to education and how to raise children although I try to stay up to date with research done in the fields of psychology and education. Interestingly, most discoveries made in the field of psychology do not make it into the field of education (for example: On how using a reward system is detrimental on the long run for children). I believe this is partly due to the fact that most teachers like to use blunt solutions to problems they have mostly because they never sat down to think about the results they are looking for and ways to get there or they simply don't have the time or interest to research and implement alternative ways of teaching and creating communities of learners. Also, teachers, just like parents, will have a great tendency to emulate what was done to them when they were students themselves. The implication of this is also that if we want students to behave in a certain way we must make sure we do not employ the proscribed behavior against them else they will end up using the same techniques when falling back on "auto-parent/auto-teacher" when facing a crisis.

Although I will concede that some children can turn well in spite of a detrimental environment, the influence said environment has on the vast majority of children (and even adults) is undeniable. As a teacher, I try my best to help the children in the schools I work at. A key principle teachers should keep in mind at all times when looking to improve a situation is the following: what can I change in the environment to help my student(s)? As a teacher, I can work on changing my teaching approaches and methodology, I can change the way homework is done, I can change my classroom's climate by fostering certain aspects of human nature rather than others and moving stuff around and so on and I can give food to some students when their parents do not feed them.

Unfortunately, I cannot change the home they are living in. I cannot change their parents or the bad teachers they had/have and I cannot change the bad neighborhood. While teachers have a great deal of power to help students improve, the greatest changes can and have to be made by parents. If you suspect that you live in a bad place and that your kid may need to be spanked because he could be influenced by other kids, I would strongly advise you to move away to a better community. If you also think you need help with raising your child, your priority should be to look for information online, in books, talk to other parents and maybe even teachers (although I would say that I think many teachers would give bad advice - see what I wrote about not integrating results of research made in other fields) or even psychologists specialized in children's mental health. I think it would improve the odds of you having a loving relationship with your children if you did not have to spank them and, being in a better community, your life in general as well as your children's would be so much better. Again, I am not targeting this message at Apple, but is rather a comment about this fear of having to fight against a bad community to raise one's children.
 

Bobbovski

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"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for they are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet, respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient."
Hesiod, Greek poet. In the year 700 bc


1. Adults are always going to worry about "the youth of today". But generation after generation still turn out ok.

2. I'm kind of doubtful that hitting your kids will produce any kind of respect. Fear perhaps, but not respect. Many kids that goes to my mother's school don't respect her or the other teachers because they don't hit them like their parents do. If the parents had used punishments that were non-violent this probably wouldn't have been an issue (or even better if they had figured out ways to teach their kids good behaviour without using punishments).

"As Skinner discussed, positive reinforcement is superior to punishment in altering behavior. He maintained that punishment was not simply the opposite of positive reinforcement; positive reinforcement results in lasting behavioral modification, whereas punishment changes behavior only temporarily and presents many detrimental side effects."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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b3nn3tt said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Danish rage said:
No just no, any sort of violence against children are wrong. Just so wrong.

Violence expresses itself when you are out of words, and if you´re out of words with a kid.. well then, i hate to say it, get smarter.
Ages 1-9, I agree with you. 10-14? Some need it. I have these hateful tweens in my neighborhood throwing rocks at strangers and laughing because we can't do anything about it. Some older kids need a lesson in respect. Especially if their parents don't care/defend the behavior/are generally incompetent. I guess I'm saying it is okay in secondary school. I wouldn't have had to worry. Actually learning from/respecting your elders does wonders.
But is it not likely that the reason those kids behave like that is because they were never properly disciplined when they were younger? If you can instill a sense of right and wrong, and a knowledge of consequences, into young children, then by the time they reach secondary school they will (hopefully) not behave like that
I just don't like the thought of a stranger hitting someone's child. Parents often do a pretty bad job of doing those things without violence. I was just lucky I had my grandparents. They commanded respect.
 

b3nn3tt

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May 11, 2010
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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
b3nn3tt said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Danish rage said:
No just no, any sort of violence against children are wrong. Just so wrong.

Violence expresses itself when you are out of words, and if you´re out of words with a kid.. well then, i hate to say it, get smarter.
Ages 1-9, I agree with you. 10-14? Some need it. I have these hateful tweens in my neighborhood throwing rocks at strangers and laughing because we can't do anything about it. Some older kids need a lesson in respect. Especially if their parents don't care/defend the behavior/are generally incompetent. I guess I'm saying it is okay in secondary school. I wouldn't have had to worry. Actually learning from/respecting your elders does wonders.
But is it not likely that the reason those kids behave like that is because they were never properly disciplined when they were younger? If you can instill a sense of right and wrong, and a knowledge of consequences, into young children, then by the time they reach secondary school they will (hopefully) not behave like that
I just don't like the thought of a stranger hitting someone's child. Parents often do a pretty bad job of doing those things without violence. I was just lucky I had my grandparents. They commanded respect.
Well, no, I wouldn't like a stranger hitting someone's child, so I think corporal punishment in schools is a definite no no. I agree with you that a lot of parents do a pretty poor job of disciplining their kids, but I think a better solution is to try to teach parents a better way of dealing with their kids, rather than resorting to hitting them
 

Yan007

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b3nn3tt said:
But is it not likely that the reason those kids behave like that is because they were never properly disciplined when they were younger? If you can instill a sense of right and wrong, and a knowledge of consequences, into young children, then by the time they reach secondary school they will (hopefully) not behave like that
I'm sorry to say, but the students I have that display the most problems (and I'm not talking about bad grades here or just general disinterest/goofing, but rather attacking others or harming self and so on) are generally those of parents who discipline them the most. At some point violence loses its short-term benefit and the negative repercussions show up.

By the way, discipline does not increase respect or awareness of good and evil, it increases compliance and subordination and teaches children that might makes right. Give this lesson often enough to a kid and then wonder why said kid uses violence, or threats of using violence against others.
 

Bezza27

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Feb 18, 2010
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We should have it. In my school the other week a 15 year old boy punched a female english teacher in the face. Now she couldn't defend herself cos the smug little shit would have reported her for abuse. So she had to take the punch. Now if we were living about 60 years ago the kids punishment would be god knows how many beatings and monthds of weekend detention. But in todays society what did he get. A week off school (alright my school call it exclusion but I call it reward for bad behaviour) and when he got back a week in isolation(so no lessons just sitting in a room)

And another anecdote, I was punched in school last week. I have one hell of a bruise. Now if i were to go punch the guy that did it i'd be the one in the wrong. Of course all he got was a week off.
 

suitepee7

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Dec 6, 2010
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eugh, i'm kinda torn on this issue. i hate the idea of beating your children, but at the same time i think kids in school in particular would shut the fuck up if they got caned. personally i think it should be brought back in schools, but i disagree with it as a form of parenting.
 

b3nn3tt

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Yan007 said:
b3nn3tt said:
But is it not likely that the reason those kids behave like that is because they were never properly disciplined when they were younger? If you can instill a sense of right and wrong, and a knowledge of consequences, into young children, then by the time they reach secondary school they will (hopefully) not behave like that
I'm sorry to say, but the students I have that display the most problems (and I'm not talking about bad grades here or just general disinterest/goofing, but rather attacking others or harming self and so on) are generally those of parents who discipline them the most. At some point violence loses its short-term benefit and the negative repercussions show up.

By the way, discipline does not increase respect or awareness of good and evil, it increases compliance and subordination and teaches children that might makes right. Give this lesson often enough to a kid and then wonder why said kid uses violence, or threats of using violence against others.
I was in no way condoning hitting children, I am vehemently against hitting children, there is no excuse for it. As I said in an earlier post:

b3nn3tt said:
I don't think there is ever an excuse to hit your child. There are plenty of ways of letting them know that what they did was wrong without resorting to violence. The child needs to know exactly what it was that they did, or else they'll never understand why it was wrong

The best method that I can think of is to explain what they did wrong and either send them to a naughty step or confiscate something. This way they learn that there is consequence to their actions, and they also learn why their behaviour was wrong
By discipline, this is what I meant. Talk to your child, explain what they did, why it was wrong, and why it is that they are being sent to the naughty step, or whatever consequence they are experiencing
 

ApeShapeDeity

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Bobbovski said:
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for they are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet, respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient."
Hesiod, Greek poet. In the year 700 bc


1. Adults are always going to worry about "the youth of today". But generation after generation still turn out ok.

2. I'm kind of doubtful that hitting your kids will produce any kind of respect. Fear perhaps, but not respect. Many kids that goes to my mother's school don't respect her or the other teachers because they don't hit them like their parents do. If the parents had used punishments that were non-violent this probably wouldn't have been an issue (or even better if they had figured out ways to teach their kids good behaviour without using punishments).

"As Skinner discussed, positive reinforcement is superior to punishment in altering behavior. He maintained that punishment was not simply the opposite of positive reinforcement; positive reinforcement results in lasting behavioral modification, whereas punishment changes behavior only temporarily and presents many detrimental side effects."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement
I'll pay this...

Edit: However, in sikinner's study, physical punishment counts as 'positive reinfocement' on account of it being an "active cosequence". Not that I'm arguing against your point. Just encouraging good reading and active learning...
 

Bezza27

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Feb 18, 2010
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Blitzwing said:
Bezza27 said:
We should have it. In my school the other week a 15 year old boy punched a female english teacher in the face. Now she couldn't defend herself cos the smug little shit would have reported her for abuse. So she had to take the punch. Now if we were living about 60 years ago the kids punishment would be god knows how many beatings and monthds of weekend detention. But in todays society what did he get. A week off school (alright my school call it exclusion but I call it reward for bad behaviour) and when he got back a week in isolation(so no lessons just sitting in a room)

And another anecdote, I was punched in school last week. I have one hell of a bruise. Now if i were to go punch the guy that did it i'd be the one in the wrong. Of course all he got was a week off.
I?m afraid anecdotal evidence isn?t good enough.
Well if it isn't then you have to question the OPs claims that he has a daughter. that he went to a school where they enforce corporal punishment. (Just a note to OP im not doubting you im just explaining to this guy)
So yea, if your gunna say that then at least say it about everything else in the thread.
 

Yan007

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Jan 31, 2011
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b3nn3tt said:
By discipline, this is what I meant. Talk to your child, explain what they did, why it was wrong, and why it is that they are being sent to the naughty step, or whatever consequence they are experiencing
This is much better indeed although I always cringe at words like discipline and consequence. I think what you mean is having a discussion. My grain of salt though would be that telling them what was wrong is better than hitting them, but asking them why they are having this specific discussion with you and why what they did is wrong is better. If you want to help your kid become a responsible adult that can understand the consequences of his actions, the best way is probably to help him train this skill. Another good thing to do is to ask your kid to help you find solutions together to make sure this does not happen again. Try to look for solutions to help him, not punishment.

You would be surprised (or not) by the answers I get to the following question:

"Student X has done this and that, class, any suggestion of what should be done?" . Most answers range from light punishment, to having to stay after class for months to having them beaten and so on.

At that point I tell my students we should do something different. Instead of punishing Student X, we should look for ways to help him/her so that it does not happen again. I found that on the medium-long run I have much better results that way.

Again, I don't think you are doing anything wrong or are a bad person. You sound like a good person to me and I'm just throwing suggestions here.
 

kikon9

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Aug 11, 2010
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Within reason, this type of punishment would be a good idea, the little bastards of today need to be taught some discipline. Although, if this type of punishment becomes acceptable again, cases of child abuse will be much more difficult to find, and much more difficult to resolve.
 

Nyaliva

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Sep 9, 2010
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Jarl said:
Beating kids is for adults who can't figure out how to properly raise children. It is liable to make kids violent, aggressive, emotionally stunted, selfish and unsociable. Not saying every kid who gets beaten turns out this way, but it is not a good way of raising children. Without teaching them why something is bad but simply taking a switch to them you never expand their horizon, you simply give them a "because I say so" mentality that they can carry with them for the rest of their lives.

Violence is the stupid man's tool. When all else fails, beat it. And parents who rely on beating their kids to teach them respect forget to focus on more important things. Respect is earned, not taken for granted. Common decency, however, is another matter entirely, and something you cannot teach children by beating them senseless.

If you ask me, there is never, ever any excuse for beating your kids. Never. Not even if they throw tantrums or behave unruly. If they do behave like this, it means you have failed to give them an upbringing where you established a chain of command, but still let them have their say. Give them options, but never make a doubt that you, as their parent, have the final word.

Read up on Authoritative parenting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenting_styles#Authoritative_parenting
Your first two sentences made me want to scream because this is the mentality most people have. If you hadn't followed them with the third I'd seriously hate you right now. However I do have to point out, spanking isn't an all purpose shut-up switch used to stop kids crying, it's to teach them consequences in a quick manner. My parents spanked me but only if I wouldn't listen to reason, or actually consciously wanted to cause trouble. A lot of the time they just sent me to the bathroom (not my bedroom cause that's where all the toys are!) for a few minutes to think about what I'd done. I do agree that most of the time I was in there I just fumed but I seriously believe that, in the long run, my parents did the right thing.

People see this thing as too black and white, you either try to reason in a calm manner while your kids pull down shelves or you yell and scream while smacking them repeatedly. When I have children, I'll tell them when they're doing something wrong, a stern voice is usually enough for a 0-3 year old. After that, they start to think more and get ideas. Then you have to keep the stern voice but if they test you, follow it up with either a smack or sending them to the bathroom. Either way you ensure they know that it was a consequence of their foolish actions. As they grow, you'll need to come up with more creative ways to punish them (no TV, no mobile phone etc.) because smacking loses it's edge and becomes a way to create anger in older kids. As long as you keep your head and never yell or smack for no good reason, your kids will learn that actions have consequences, good for good and bad for bad. Parenting isn't easy so don't think one way or the other is right. Smacking isn't violence, it's a learning method, a harsh one maybe but it works. I'll only ever smack my children if nothing else works.
Oh and saying that they won't listen is a result of failed parenting is quite a rather large load of bull. Like I said, kids get creative and do whatever they can to get what they want and simply saying "No" won't cut it. You need something else to back up your authority. Smacking is simply one way, grounding is another. Your method of "options" and so forth sounds like it's coming from someone who's never had children. If you have and it's worked let me know and I'll be less inclined to smack my own kids.

Also, I'd like to find someone who was spanked as a child who doesn't think it was a good idea. I'm not saying they don't exist but there are a lot of people saying "I was spanked as a child and I think it's okay". Maybe the ones who think it isn't all became murderers!!!!