Corporal Punishment: Have we let othe kid's down on discipline?

[Bobbovski]

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for they are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet, respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient."
Hesiod, Greek poet. In the year 700 bc


1. Adults are always going to worry about "the youth of today". But generation after generation still turn out ok.

2. I'm kind of doubtful that hitting your kids will produce any kind of respect. Fear perhaps, but not respect. Many kids that goes to my mother's school don't respect her or the other teachers because they don't hit them like their parents do. If the parents had used punishments that were non-violent this probably wouldn't have been an issue (or even better if they had figured out ways to teach their kids good behaviour without using punishments).

"As Skinner discussed, positive reinforcement is superior to punishment in altering behavior. He maintained that punishment was not simply the opposite of positive reinforcement; positive reinforcement results in lasting behavioral modification, whereas punishment changes behavior only temporarily and presents many detrimental side effects."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement

I'll pay this...

Edit: However, in sikinner's study, physical punishment counts as 'positive reinfocement' on account of it being an "active cosequence". Not that I'm arguing against your point. Just encouraging good reading and active learning...

You might be correct. I'm mostly writing from memory so my Skinner knowledge might be a bit fuzzy.

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

I think that there is no fool proof system. Can you fail to raise a kid if your not allowed to hit him/her? of course. You see all those entitled, snobby, piec'o shits running around smug.
Can you fail to raise a kid if you are allowed to hit your kid? Abso-fucking-lutely!
There is an obscenely high chance that you'll breed a closeted, repressed kid, filled to the absolute brim with unabated rage, that they will unleash on innocent people first chance they will get.

Corporal punishment is banned because snooty, entitled fucks.....are easier to deal with (and cause less damage) than psychotic rage heads. I agree.
It's about how you raise the child. Not the how you punish him/her for failure. Kids, aren't dogs.

 

[halfeclipse]

Sometimes you need to, if only because not doing so could lead to worse consequence, ie the child keeps trying to touch a hot stove burner. Some times talking will convince them to stop, but a combination of curiosity, stubbornness and the fact a child can't really conceptualize that sort of injury means that wont always work. Better a sore arse than severe burns after all.


Outside of situations like that however I can't think of any reason it should be an option.

 

[Funkysandwich]

Also, I'd like to find someone who was spanked as a child who doesn't think it was a good idea. I'm not saying they don't exist but there are a lot of people saying "I was spanked as a child and I think it's okay". Maybe the ones who think it isn't all became murderers!!!!

It wouldn?t matter since it would just be hearsay, like your Anecdote.

This is an online forum, not a fucking courtroom. Nothing anyone says here can be 100% proven.

 

[Nyaliva]

Spare the rod spoil the child.. that's how i was brought up.. and i'm no where near out of control.. and still have respect for people unlike kids brought up after it was frowned upon

I was slapped as a child, and it didn't do me any harm.

My parents did it to me and I turned out fine.

Can any of you actually prove that corporal punishment works without resorting to anecdotal evidence?
The Canadian Pediatrics Society, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association, the Australian Psychological Society, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and the Royal College of Psychiatrists all agree that it doesn?t work

It doesn't work if you use it alone. You need more than just a smack in your arsenal. You also need the stance to raise children. You cannot demand something higher of your child if you act exactly like one. For example i know a woman who has 3 children, sleeps around behind her husband's back with a rainbow of different guys, is irresponsible with finances to the point college is out of the question, and relies on a man or someone else to cover her financial fuck ups. They have to hawk everything the children have to make bare rent. All of them are basically stereotypes you find in the ghetto. The boy acting like a common street thug, a teenage girl in special ed, and a toddler who is pawned off every day to anyone who can take care of her and cries (loudly, a spoiled brat) if she doesn't get her way or does something she doesn't want to do. Merely talking to her makes her scream even louder.

If you are on the same level as your child, you cannot demand more of them. This isn't anecdotal, i personally know this family and this is a real situation. They try to use the "nice" route and it still fails.

That is anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotal evidence is basically "This happened to me/someone I know/someone I heard about" and is largely useless as proof, since it is by nature doubtful in veracity.

Actually, I'd throw doubt on those Psychiatric tests. What age groups? How was the smacking followed up? Was it followed up? How long term were these "bad" effects? How long term were the tests in fact? Just saying some group of psychiatrists say it doesn't work is anecdotal in iteslf.

Besides, saying it doesn't work is completely false, considering there are a number of people here who've said they were smacked and it worked. It does work if it's done right, the way our parents did it. But then some people say "Smacking Works!" and so use it all the time. That will never get results. That is what you mean when you say smacking doesn't work.

 

[dogenzakaminion]

No, I don't think hitting your kid is a good thing, even if it might have some good resuslts sometimes. If anything, not hitting is the lesser of two evils, and there are always alternatives to disciplenary techniques that dont involve violence.

 

[b3nn3tt]

By discipline, this is what I meant. Talk to your child, explain what they did, why it was wrong, and why it is that they are being sent to the naughty step, or whatever consequence they are experiencing

This is much better indeed although I always cringe at words like discipline and consequence. I think what you mean is having a discussion. My grain of salt though would be that telling them what was wrong is better than hitting them, but asking them why they are having this specific discussion with you and why what they did is wrong is better. If you want to help your kid become a responsible adult that can understand the consequences of his actions, the best way is probably to help him train this skill. Another good thing to do is to ask your kid to help you find solutions together to make sure this does not happen again. Try to look for solutions to help him, not punishment.

I think that that is an excellent first step, and that would always be my first por of call; find out if the child knows what they did wrong, if they don't then tell them. But I think that you have to warn them that if they do it again then they will be punished. You can only reason up to a point, if the child does the same thing repeatedly, then I would send them to the naughty step/corner and explain to them why they are there

There is still never any reason to hit a child. But I think that words may not always be wholly effective, there has to be a sign of consequence, otherwise if they encounter sometihng in the outside world, they will think that they can get away with it by having a conversation, when this is not how the world works

 

[Frungy]

Hi ApeShakeDeity,

I also grew up with the cane. I had mixed experiences. My first caning was when I was about 10 by a hateful female vice-principal who caned me 5 times for no good reason (the rule I broke about wasn't documented anywhere and it was apparently "common knowledge" that an area was off-bounds.. except I was new and didn't know). A few years later I found out the full story, she was going through a divorce and evidently felt the need to beat someone to restablish some sense of control in her life. In short she was a child abuser, unfortunately protected by the laws of the country at the time.

From that point on I had no respect for school authorities, and I have a very high pain tolerance (it really is just a question of mind over matter) so I didn't care about being caned, in face if I was caught out in a minor offense I'd escalate it to a caning, because writing 1000 lines is way more "painful" than six of the best from the principal. In 2nd form/standard 6/grade 8 (depending on what terminology you're using) I held the record for being caned (we used to draw the number of strokes on the white stripes on the back of our ties). I also became completely unmanageable for pretty much everyone except my father, who would actually sit me down and talk me through things and convinced me that whatever he wanted me to do what logical and in my own best interests.

I feel guilty now because I was a frikkin' horror, and probably sucked up masses of my dad's time arguing about even the most basic stuff, but on the other hand the corporal punishment didn't work for me.

My daughter is only 3 and she's like me. My wife tends to snap and try to smack her... which has only effect of making my daughter more stubborn. I almost never raise my voice (unless she's doing something dangerous and she needs to stop RIGHT NOW!) and the only time I "smack" her is actually when I smack my own hand against the back of my own hand to make the sound of smack, which makes her stop what she's doing, look down, realise the joke and laugh, and that's normally enough to distract her and get her to listen.

Yes, she's a handful, just like I was. However corporal punishment, for certain personality types, doesn't work.

However, equally, my godchild has received more than one flick to the ear from me. He hits his older brother and sister whenever he can, and he tried to bite me once (only once, I promptly bit him back and he got the point). Some personality types badly need to realise that pain isn't just something that happens to other people, but that if they inflict pain on others then they'll receive pain themselves. The problem with my godchild is that his mother is deeply opposed to corporal punishment of any type, and even lectures his older brother if he tried to retaliate when his younger brother hits him. Needless to say when I'm around he gets to retaliate as long as it's reasonable (punch to the shoulder is ok, smack upside the head is not).

So those who've said, "case by case" are right, but they didn't go into enough detail. We're all different, and we all need different types and quantities of discipline.

Anyone who advocates a "one-size-fits-all" approach to parenting or anything else to do with humans is clearly a moron. What astounds me are the number of books out there proposing the ideal solution to parenting, dating, marketing, etc. The people who write these books are all laughing all the way to the bank at the gullible morons who honestly think that anyone can sum up human complexity in one simple solution.

I've studied psychology for more than a decade, and been in clinical practice for nearly twice that, and the more I study and see the more I realise just how amazingly complex humans really are. If there were one-size-fits-all solutions (a) I would be out of business, and (b) society's problems would all be solved.

Some kids need a good solid smack. Some kids don't. One thing I can be certain of is that it should be institutionalised by some bureaucrat, but rather left up to people who actually care about the kid in question.

 

[MrGalactus]

Corporal punishment? Absolutely not. Students should not have to fear school, it is both cruel, and an ineffective teaching method.

 

[Shotgunjack1880]

Beating your children is really only going to teach them one thing: Violence is perfectly acceptable, as long as you were really angry when you did it.

That would be true if children understood hypocrisy, but they don't.

 

[Unia]

Maybe I was just really easy to raise, but knowing that doing something "wrong" would make my mother sad was reason enough for me not to do it.

At school I was unruly in the sense I didn't follow rules that didn't make sense. Usually got away with it because I could argument teachers into the corner

 

[Nyaliva]

saying it doesn't work is completely false, considering there are a number of people here who've said they were smacked and it worked. It does work if it's done right, the way our parents did it. But then some people say "Smacking Works!" and so use it all the time. That will never get results. That is what you mean when you say smacking doesn't work.

Because that is anecdotal evidence, a few stories that may or may not be true aren?t proof of anything.

Well, I know mine is true and know the way my parents raised me and I know it worked so I think I'll be using similar methods when raising my children. If it turns out it's not working, I'll talk to my kids and try another method. That's how you parent. That's how you raise good children.

Edit: Oh and why are you so bent on proof? What's the difference between sosme Psychiatric test and real life situations? If anything, those tests are less proof because they remove too many variables. They try to isolate spanking and test it which I and many others have already said doesn't work. None of us have said we were ONLY spanked as a child and it enlightened us to being perfect children. You want proof? How about the fact that the cane was used for years and years in schools and only now, after it has been removed, have we seen classroom (and most other) behaviour plummet?

 

[Yan007]

I think that that is an excellent first step, and that would always be my first por of call; find out if the child knows what they did wrong, if they don't then tell them. But I think that you have to warn them that if they do it again then they will be punished. You can only reason up to a point, if the child does the same thing repeatedly, then I would send them to the naughty step/corner and explain to them why they are there

There is still never any reason to hit a child. But I think that words may not always be wholly effective, there has to be a sign of consequence, otherwise if they encounter sometihng in the outside world, they will think that they can get away with it by having a conversation, when this is not how the world works

The biggest problem I have with consequences is that they are not, pardon the pun, consequent with the faulty behavior most of the time.

For example, as a teacher I am allowed to bring about many "consequences". I could have a student stand in a corner or have extra homework for example. Unfortunately, this does little to help my student learn a better alternative and teaches my students that doing homework is a form of punishment.

My first priority when comes the time to work with a student is to try and find natural consequences to what happened. For example, if you get late for work you don't stand in a corner or get extra work to make you behave: you will be paid less for that day or be fired after a while. I can't fire my students, of course, but let's imagine for a moment what happens if story time takes place during the last 5-10 mins of the hour and I ask my students to clean up the class before the story. What happens if they play around and don't clean their desk? I end up telling them that we won't have a story today, the reason being that we don't have time for the story because they did not clean up the class in a timely manner.

If I can't come up with a natural consequence, I try to work with the student on finding ways he/she could repair the wrong that was caused. This can take the shape of helping around school, to giving a hand to younger kids on the playground to having to write an apology letter (or drawing for very young learners) and having it signed by everyone involved.

I found that in an average setting, most problems can be solved that way because they generally are not that bad to begin with.

Of course, having worked in an extremely poor/dysfunctional neighborhood too, I know well that what I am describing here works in an average (or better) environment. I had to restrain students in order to stop them stabbing themselves or other students in the classroom (amongst other things). The parents found the situation funny for the most part. No amount of care on my part could make up for the environment in which they were raised, but that is not to say that the vast majority of students, parents and schools are like that, on the contrary, these very difficult settings are extremely rare.

 

[Nyaliva]

Also, I'd like to find someone who was spanked as a child who doesn't think it was a good idea. I'm not saying they don't exist but there are a lot of people saying "I was spanked as a child and I think it's okay". Maybe the ones who think it isn't all became murderers!!!!

It wouldn?t matter since it would just be hearsay, like your Anecdote.

This is an online forum, not a fucking courtroom. Nothing anyone says here can be 100% proven.

Also, at what point does a set of useless anecdotes become a survey? Because we seem to have a fair few opinions here.

A thousand should do it. I'm starting a Poll: If you were spanked as a child, do you think it made you a better person? I'll edit with a link once I've started it.

Edit: Here it is: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.261615-Poll-If-you-were-spanked-as-a-child-do-you-think-it-made-you-a-better-person

 

[Sarah Frazier]

BUT...

I put it to you, does corporal punishment need a return to form? If not, why not?

I'm of the opinion that corporal punishment is a good thing, in some situations.

Smacking a kid whenever they get uppity doesn't solve anything. Simply put, no matter from whom, you cannot demand respect; it must be earned. Physical punishments when they're being mouthy only encourages them to find more discrete methods of disrepect.

That said, there is a line to acceptable behavior, and when that is crossed physical punishments can, and should, be used. My personal limit on that line is actual behavior. For example, if my kid were to get into a fight with someone without a decent reason, I'd smack them. Once the child makes it physical, the punishment should also be physical.

There's exceptions to every rule, though. Some physical infractions I wouldn't dream of physical punishments, while some instances of being a jackass I'd smack a *****. I find these to be fairly solid as a rule of thumb.

Though as a disclaimer, I'm not actually a parent, so I'm not sure how relevant my opinion is. It's mostly formed from dealing with some of my younger cousins, and the couple of years I worked at a preschool.

I completely agree with you there. There will always be circumstances where a ten minute lecture on an itchy rug just doesn't cut it and a swift swat to the behind will get the child's attention to the fact that they did something wrong. If corporal punishment MUST be used, then it should be quick and to the point while the child is told exactly why what they did was so wrong that this is happening.

 

[Baby Tea]

Spare the rod spoil the child.. that's how i was brought up.. and i'm no where near out of control.. and still have respect for people unlike kids brought up after it was frowned upon

I was slapped as a child, and it didn't do me any harm.

My parents did it to me and I turned out fine.

Can any of you actually prove that corporal punishment works without resorting to anecdotal evidence?
The Canadian Pediatrics Society, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association, the Australian Psychological Society, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and the Royal College of Psychiatrists all agree that it doesn?t work

How about the hundreds, or thousands, of years where slapping a kid up side the head for being a punk was the norm? If it was so detrimental, then our society would have collapsed long ago. We all would have been psychotic, traumatized people who sit in a shrink's office all day. We're not, of course, and the vast, overwhelming majority turned out fine.

So if it's so harmful, why does it work?
How was society able to not only exist, but grow generation to generation while giving kids a good smack every now and again?

I am 100% behind spanking. Not beating, of course, but spanking? Heck yeah. And not for everything, of course. You don't spank a kid for something silly. Spanking is a serious punishment reserved for serious actions by the part of the child.
I will say, however, that the only person who has the right and authority to give out such punishment is the parent.
Not teachers, not anyone but the parent.