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BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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NeutralMunchHotel said:
BonsaiK said:
That bit about the watermark is quite interesting. Hanging around /mu/ yesterday it seems like Sufjan Steven's The Age of Adz has been leaked, which is a shame, and now I'm not sure what to do because I've been waiting to hear it since it was announced!

Also, what do you think about the other aspect of What CD - the idea that it is arguably the single largest database of music in every quality, and that this is only possible because copyright laws don't apply in thiss illegal environment.
Well they all say they're the largest, don't they - that's just good advertising. Anyway those sites are like those amoeba things in D&D - you cut one up and it just separates into two more amoeba which then grow and annoy you twice as much... I don't have any opinion on any particular site like this vs any other one.

With regards to watermarking, the people putting the watermark on are more interested in the source rather than the destination. They don't need advanced audio watermarking technology to tell them that once Sufjan Stevens' new album gets onto some site, thousands of kids are going to download it. Yes, you could potentially still get in the shit and people have been sued for ludicrous sums of money and been made examples of for this very reason, but that only happens to a tiny, tiny fraction of people who download things illegally (and in those cases it's usually some kid with several hard drives full of illegal stuff). The risk you take is absolutely tiny compared to the risk that the filing clerk or program manager in RORT-FM who initially uploaded it took. Once the record company makes the link, that person is probably going to lose their job, and the radio station will have to go into damage control mode as the record company accuses them of piracy, leaking their product, and withholds further new releases, maybe even sues for damages...

Would Sufjan's new album be watermarked? No comment. :D
 

Aratus

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Feb 13, 2009
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Awesome thread, after reading through I thought it be fun to post up a question of my own.

Im in a small band of 3 right now consisting of a drummer, guitar player, and me on vocals and bass. We have only been playing together for a few months and just started working on writing our own stuff cause we usually just played cover tunes, and have really enjoyed our time playing together.

Im the one writing the lyrics right now and wondered what advice you had for people just getting into songwriting.

For some background info on the band we have played stuff from System of a Down (incredibly challenging vocals) to Green Day. We are trying to keep a heavier punk sound and my biggest musical influences when writing so far have been Green Day and Sum 41.
 

Abe_Z

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Aug 13, 2009
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I am in a hard rock band. We're trying to gig as much as possible and really want to do this professionally. This means so much to me, and I would be willing to do almost anything to "make it"!

What is the best way to grab the attention of those who can help us achieve our goals of playing music as a profession? Who can we tell is the best way to "market" ourselves? Any advice would be much apprieciated!
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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Aratus said:
Awesome thread, after reading through I thought it be fun to post up a question of my own.

Im in a small band of 3 right now consisting of a drummer, guitar player, and me on vocals and bass. We have only been playing together for a few months and just started working on writing our own stuff cause we usually just played cover tunes, and have really enjoyed our time playing together.

Im the one writing the lyrics right now and wondered what advice you had for people just getting into songwriting.

For some background info on the band we have played stuff from System of a Down (incredibly challenging vocals) to Green Day. We are trying to keep a heavier punk sound and my biggest musical influences when writing so far have been Green Day and Sum 41.
Well, gee, it's not really the best time to be starting a punk band, but then these things do go in cycles and a couple of very recent punk releases by new bands on Epitaph of all places have blown me away lately. So who knows.

Wouldn't call Green Day/Sum 41 a "heavier punk sound" personally but I'll let that slide... it's all opinion after all...

In terms of general songwriting the thing to keep in mind is this - at its core, a song is an idea before it's anything else. You don't want to just be singing some generic bollocks. If you have no ideas, you have no songs. So start with what the song is going to be about, then go from there.

A little bit of music theory won't hurt you. Key thing to remember about punk is that a lot of it is major-key based, unlike metal which is almost exclusively minor-key based, or modal. Also, keep it simple, don't try and throw too many ideas into the one song. See how you go, and just keep writing. Like anything in life, your first attempt will probably be shit, so just keep doing it until you get better, practice makes perfect etc.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
5,635
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Abe_Z said:
I am in a hard rock band. We're trying to gig as much as possible and really want to do this professionally. This means so much to me, and I would be willing to do almost anything to "make it"!

What is the best way to grab the attention of those who can help us achieve our goals of playing music as a profession? Who can we tell is the best way to "market" ourselves? Any advice would be much apprieciated!
Er.... what sort of "hard rock" are we talking about here? That makes all the difference...
 

Aratus

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Feb 13, 2009
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BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
Well, gee, it's not really the best time to be starting a punk band, but then these things do go in cycles and a couple of very recent punk releases by new bands on Epitaph of all places have blown me away lately. So who knows.

Wouldn't call Green Day/Sum 41 a "heavier punk sound" personally but I'll let that slide... it's all opinion after all...

In terms of general songwriting the thing to keep in mind is this - at its core, a song is an idea before it's anything else. You don't want to just be singing some generic bollocks. If you have no ideas, you have no songs. So start with what the song is going to be about, then go from there.

A little bit of music theory won't hurt you. Key thing to remember about punk is that a lot of it is major-key based, unlike metal which is almost exclusively minor-key based, or modal. Also, keep it simple, don't try and throw too many ideas into the one song. See how you go, and just keep writing. Like anything in life, your first attempt will probably be shit, so just keep doing it until you get better, practice makes perfect etc.
Very cool thank you.

Also why is it not the best time to be starting a punk band? I know that the prime of that genre isn't really what it use to be mid to late 90's and early 00's, but is it a lot harder if you advertise yourself as such?

And I wasn't referring to Green Day or Sum 41 as a heavier punk sound, thats the direction our band wants to go in. (I only corrected that cause I am an avid fan of both bands :D)
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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Aratus said:
BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
Well, gee, it's not really the best time to be starting a punk band, but then these things do go in cycles and a couple of very recent punk releases by new bands on Epitaph of all places have blown me away lately. So who knows.

Wouldn't call Green Day/Sum 41 a "heavier punk sound" personally but I'll let that slide... it's all opinion after all...

In terms of general songwriting the thing to keep in mind is this - at its core, a song is an idea before it's anything else. You don't want to just be singing some generic bollocks. If you have no ideas, you have no songs. So start with what the song is going to be about, then go from there.

A little bit of music theory won't hurt you. Key thing to remember about punk is that a lot of it is major-key based, unlike metal which is almost exclusively minor-key based, or modal. Also, keep it simple, don't try and throw too many ideas into the one song. See how you go, and just keep writing. Like anything in life, your first attempt will probably be shit, so just keep doing it until you get better, practice makes perfect etc.
Very cool thank you.

Also why is it not the best time to be starting a punk band? I know that the prime of that genre isn't really what it use to be mid to late 90's and early 00's, but is it a lot harder if you advertise yourself as such?

And I wasn't referring to Green Day or Sum 41 as a heavier punk sound, thats the direction our band wants to go in. (I only corrected that cause I am an avid fan of both bands :D)
Okay, sorry for confusion.

Name a single wildly successful punk band (in the style that you want to play) that started after 2005. You can't, because there isn't one. There's a lesson there.
 

Aratus

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Feb 13, 2009
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BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
Well, gee, it's not really the best time to be starting a punk band, but then these things do go in cycles and a couple of very recent punk releases by new bands on Epitaph of all places have blown me away lately. So who knows.

Wouldn't call Green Day/Sum 41 a "heavier punk sound" personally but I'll let that slide... it's all opinion after all...

In terms of general songwriting the thing to keep in mind is this - at its core, a song is an idea before it's anything else. You don't want to just be singing some generic bollocks. If you have no ideas, you have no songs. So start with what the song is going to be about, then go from there.

A little bit of music theory won't hurt you. Key thing to remember about punk is that a lot of it is major-key based, unlike metal which is almost exclusively minor-key based, or modal. Also, keep it simple, don't try and throw too many ideas into the one song. See how you go, and just keep writing. Like anything in life, your first attempt will probably be shit, so just keep doing it until you get better, practice makes perfect etc.
Very cool thank you.

Also why is it not the best time to be starting a punk band? I know that the prime of that genre isn't really what it use to be mid to late 90's and early 00's, but is it a lot harder if you advertise yourself as such?

And I wasn't referring to Green Day or Sum 41 as a heavier punk sound, thats the direction our band wants to go in. (I only corrected that cause I am an avid fan of both bands :D)
Okay, sorry for confusion.

Name a single wildly successful punk band (in the style that you want to play) that started after 2005. You can't, because there isn't one. There's a lesson there.
*Looks through music library* Hahaha good point sir. Thank you for your time.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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Aratus said:
BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
Well, gee, it's not really the best time to be starting a punk band, but then these things do go in cycles and a couple of very recent punk releases by new bands on Epitaph of all places have blown me away lately. So who knows.

Wouldn't call Green Day/Sum 41 a "heavier punk sound" personally but I'll let that slide... it's all opinion after all...

In terms of general songwriting the thing to keep in mind is this - at its core, a song is an idea before it's anything else. You don't want to just be singing some generic bollocks. If you have no ideas, you have no songs. So start with what the song is going to be about, then go from there.

A little bit of music theory won't hurt you. Key thing to remember about punk is that a lot of it is major-key based, unlike metal which is almost exclusively minor-key based, or modal. Also, keep it simple, don't try and throw too many ideas into the one song. See how you go, and just keep writing. Like anything in life, your first attempt will probably be shit, so just keep doing it until you get better, practice makes perfect etc.
Very cool thank you.

Also why is it not the best time to be starting a punk band? I know that the prime of that genre isn't really what it use to be mid to late 90's and early 00's, but is it a lot harder if you advertise yourself as such?

And I wasn't referring to Green Day or Sum 41 as a heavier punk sound, thats the direction our band wants to go in. (I only corrected that cause I am an avid fan of both bands :D)
Okay, sorry for confusion.

Name a single wildly successful punk band (in the style that you want to play) that started after 2005. You can't, because there isn't one. There's a lesson there.
*Looks through music library* Hahaha good point sir. Thank you for your time.
No problem. Don't take that as "don't do it" by any means. If it's what you love, go for it. If something happens for you (and it might), wonderful. However, your odds of financial success at this point in history have never been lower in the last 35 years or so.
 

Aratus

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Feb 13, 2009
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BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
BonsaiK said:
Aratus said:
Well, gee, it's not really the best time to be starting a punk band, but then these things do go in cycles and a couple of very recent punk releases by new bands on Epitaph of all places have blown me away lately. So who knows.

Wouldn't call Green Day/Sum 41 a "heavier punk sound" personally but I'll let that slide... it's all opinion after all...

In terms of general songwriting the thing to keep in mind is this - at its core, a song is an idea before it's anything else. You don't want to just be singing some generic bollocks. If you have no ideas, you have no songs. So start with what the song is going to be about, then go from there.

A little bit of music theory won't hurt you. Key thing to remember about punk is that a lot of it is major-key based, unlike metal which is almost exclusively minor-key based, or modal. Also, keep it simple, don't try and throw too many ideas into the one song. See how you go, and just keep writing. Like anything in life, your first attempt will probably be shit, so just keep doing it until you get better, practice makes perfect etc.
Very cool thank you.

Also why is it not the best time to be starting a punk band? I know that the prime of that genre isn't really what it use to be mid to late 90's and early 00's, but is it a lot harder if you advertise yourself as such?

And I wasn't referring to Green Day or Sum 41 as a heavier punk sound, thats the direction our band wants to go in. (I only corrected that cause I am an avid fan of both bands :D)
Okay, sorry for confusion.

Name a single wildly successful punk band (in the style that you want to play) that started after 2005. You can't, because there isn't one. There's a lesson there.
*Looks through music library* Hahaha good point sir. Thank you for your time.
No problem. Don't take that as "don't do it" by any means. If it's what you love, go for it. If something happens for you (and it might), wonderful. However, your odds of financial success at this point in history have never been lower in the last 35 years or so.
Oh I still plan on going for something. Solid point that punk isn't as big right now, and might not be for a good while. But it will be a fun as hell trip to where ever we get.
 

irbullz

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May 12, 2009
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BonsaiK said:
If a band with infinite budget like Metallica can't even get it right most of the time, imagine how tricky it is for some obscuro nobody band who are so broke that they have to make fake bullet belts out of AA batteries (cookie for reference).
I'm quite late, but that's Sepultura, Yeah?

If you're familiar with Opeth, is it just me, or is the sound quality better on "My Arms, Your Hearse" than on "Deliverance"?
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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irbullz said:
BonsaiK said:
If a band with infinite budget like Metallica can't even get it right most of the time, imagine how tricky it is for some obscuro nobody band who are so broke that they have to make fake bullet belts out of AA batteries (cookie for reference).
I'm quite late, but that's Sepultura, Yeah?

If you're familiar with Opeth, is it just me, or is the sound quality better on "My Arms, Your Hearse" than on "Deliverance"?
Yay, someone else has seen "Global Metal"! I'd give you a cookie but I'm ill and it might be infected.

I don't listen to Opeth, that style of music does nothing for me personally. I guess if it sounds better to you, then it probably is. The general rule is that as a successful band builds a catalogue and a financial base they can afford better and better production with each subsequent album. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but that's usually the case. Bands are usually trying to top what they did just prior in all possible ways.
 

irbullz

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May 12, 2009
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BonsaiK said:
irbullz said:
BonsaiK said:
If a band with infinite budget like Metallica can't even get it right most of the time, imagine how tricky it is for some obscuro nobody band who are so broke that they have to make fake bullet belts out of AA batteries (cookie for reference).
I'm quite late, but that's Sepultura, Yeah?

If you're familiar with Opeth, is it just me, or is the sound quality better on "My Arms, Your Hearse" than on "Deliverance"?
Yay, someone else has seen "Global Metal"! I'd give you a cookie but I'm ill and it might be infected.

I don't listen to Opeth, that style of music does nothing for me personally. I guess if it sounds better to you, then it probably is. The general rule is that as a successful band builds a catalogue and a financial base they can afford better and better production with each subsequent album. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but that's usually the case. Bands are usually trying to top what they did just prior in all possible ways.
Ah, alright. Was just curious because MAYH was recorded in 1999 and Deliverance in 2004. Then suddenly their 2006 Album Ghost Reveries sounded leagues better than anything else they put out untill then.

Another one: After Metallica, who is the biggest Metal band in terms of income? My guess would be Iron Maiden, if so, who's behind them?
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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irbullz said:
BonsaiK said:
irbullz said:
BonsaiK said:
If a band with infinite budget like Metallica can't even get it right most of the time, imagine how tricky it is for some obscuro nobody band who are so broke that they have to make fake bullet belts out of AA batteries (cookie for reference).
I'm quite late, but that's Sepultura, Yeah?

If you're familiar with Opeth, is it just me, or is the sound quality better on "My Arms, Your Hearse" than on "Deliverance"?
Yay, someone else has seen "Global Metal"! I'd give you a cookie but I'm ill and it might be infected.

I don't listen to Opeth, that style of music does nothing for me personally. I guess if it sounds better to you, then it probably is. The general rule is that as a successful band builds a catalogue and a financial base they can afford better and better production with each subsequent album. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but that's usually the case. Bands are usually trying to top what they did just prior in all possible ways.
Ah, alright. Was just curious because MAYH was recorded in 1999 and Deliverance in 2004. Then suddenly their 2006 Album Ghost Reveries sounded leagues better than anything else they put out untill then.

Another one: After Metallica, who is the biggest Metal band in terms of income? My guess would be Iron Maiden, if so, who's behind them?
Iron Maiden? No way. I'd go for AC/DC, and in fact I'm pretty sure they earn more annually than Metallica these days too, just because they're a bit more consistently active on the live circuit...
 

Abe_Z

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Aug 13, 2009
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BonsaiK said:
Abe_Z said:
I am in a hard rock band. We're trying to gig as much as possible and really want to do this professionally. This means so much to me, and I would be willing to do almost anything to "make it"!

What is the best way to grab the attention of those who can help us achieve our goals of playing music as a profession? Who can we tell is the best way to "market" ourselves? Any advice would be much apprieciated!

Er.... what sort of "hard rock" are we talking about here? That makes all the difference...
Hmmm... If you need a solid example, check us out at http://www.purevolume.com/imageof719. I only give the address cause it's hard to explain other than hard rock. Heavier than Sevendust, but lighter than Slipknot. We incorporate a little bit of intricate playing, solos; we're kind of experimental too. Even thought I hate to say it, people may label us as "Christian" Rock, but we don't come close to having that sound. With all due respect, but a lot of "Christian" bands out there suck, and that's why I try and steer clear of using that to "describe" us.
 

Rararaz

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Feb 20, 2010
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Do you get many people wanting music in advance, wanting you to leak an album or song etc?
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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Rararaz said:
Do you get many people wanting music in advance, wanting you to leak an album or song etc?
Only if I tell them I have something that they're specifically interested in. I've learned to keep my mouth shut around anyone who I think is going to hassle me about "oh can you burn this for me" because while it sucks to say no to friends it would suck even more to lose my job over something like that...
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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Abe_Z said:
BonsaiK said:
Abe_Z said:
I am in a hard rock band. We're trying to gig as much as possible and really want to do this professionally. This means so much to me, and I would be willing to do almost anything to "make it"!

What is the best way to grab the attention of those who can help us achieve our goals of playing music as a profession? Who can we tell is the best way to "market" ourselves? Any advice would be much apprieciated!

Er.... what sort of "hard rock" are we talking about here? That makes all the difference...
Hmmm... If you need a solid example, check us out at http://www.purevolume.com/imageof719. I only give the address cause it's hard to explain other than hard rock. Heavier than Sevendust, but lighter than Slipknot. We incorporate a little bit of intricate playing, solos; we're kind of experimental too. Even thought I hate to say it, people may label us as "Christian" Rock, but we don't come close to having that sound. With all due respect, but a lot of "Christian" bands out there suck, and that's why I try and steer clear of using that to "describe" us.
Apologies for harsh truths and possible offence I might cause, but do understand that I'm not trying to be offensive, but give you the best possible information that I can to help you succeed.

"Christian" bands are always stuck in an interesting predicament, one which is not that different to what a lot of "white power"-style artists find themselves in. It works like this: people who are interested in the ideology want to listen to the music primarily because it matches their ideology, whereas people who disagree with the ideology refuse to even give the music a chance, once again, because they don't happen to agree with what's being said. In both cases, the actual music takes a back seat.

This is why, in the history of Christian music (in all genres), once an act starts gaining a very solid fanbase, they start toning down their Christian message - the people behind the music generally still hold those beliefs but they no longer want to be perceived as "that Christian artist", because it stops new people outside of that Christian music scene from checking out the music (and on top of financial concerns there's no point preaching to the choir after all). They're trying to break out of the "ghettoisation" effect that nominating yourself as a Christian artist tends to generate. Amy Grant, Stryper and P.O.D. are all artists who have attempted this shift, with varying degrees of success, but almost every big Christian band tries to "cross over" at some point. It's just good marketing sense.

For smaller Christian bands, ghettoisation can be a good thing - sure, it cuts off the non-Christian audience more or less completely, but it makes the Christian audience super-interested in everything you do, and at the start of your career you're probably mainly going to be playing just to your Christian pals anyway. Let's look at "white power" bands again - now that's a genre that's has zero chance in hell of crossing over into the mainstream because so many people find those kind of ideas completely abhorrent. Bands who choose that path knowingly choose the path of music industry ghettoisation. They know they'll never be accepted by the mainstream - only their specific audience will ever care. The flipside, is that that specific audience cares a whole lot. Look at Skrewdriver - even by punk standards, they can barely play their instruments and ignoring the lyrical content the songs themselves are simply not that good, certainly nothing to write home about compared to their contemporaries, yet they had that tiny core audience who latched onto them and loves them because of their extreme stance, hence they're still known today and have fans all over the world (not many though, but enough for a cult following).

In your band's case, ghettoisation could help you because your Christian stance is really the most distinctive thing about your group. The actual sound of your music isn't hard rock, it's more some kind of post-grunge/nu-metal, and I've heard that sound many, many times before, probably more times than I've heard any other type of band in any other genre ever in the last ten years. I'd really be trying to work into your music something that's genuinely "different" or at least a bit more distinctive than what you have currently. Until you do, then people will naturally label you "Chrstian rock" simply because they can't find any other way to distinguish your sound from something so many other bands do other than to say "oh, these are the Christian guys". The music you have is frankly too generic to really stand out and be noticed and therefore only saleable as a "ghettoised" commodity, you'll simply need better songs to really go far with this. Sorry, I'm sure this isn't the type of response you were fishing for.

(Also, "Last Breath" not "Last Breathe". "Breathe" just looks unprofessional. Don't make typos on promo material, especially not your own song titles... unless it's deliberate...)
 

zen5887

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Jan 31, 2008
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What do you think about studying music at a tertiary level?

I've taken a lot of flak for spending 3 years studying music. Most it is "Man, you don't need a fuckin' peice of paper to get a job in the industry, just do it!"

To which I reply with "I'm not in it for the degree, I'm getting 3 years of skills from amazing lecturers, I'm meeting a bunch of people and getting my contacts up, and I'm having a fucking ball."

So how much "edge" will having a music degree help me in my career?
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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zen5887 said:
What do you think about studying music at a tertiary level?

I've taken a lot of flak for spending 3 years studying music. Most it is "Man, you don't need a fuckin' peice of paper to get a job in the industry, just do it!"

To which I reply with "I'm not in it for the degree, I'm getting 3 years of skills from amazing lecturers, I'm meeting a bunch of people and getting my contacts up, and I'm having a fucking ball."

So how much "edge" will having a music degree help me in my career?
Well, I did it, and I looked at it in much the same way you did. In terms of what kind of an edge it gives you, it depends where you want to go with it and what part of the industry you want to be in.

Where a music degree is most relevant of all is teaching. It may not actually qualify you to teach (for that in most countries you need a teaching degree) but it's like a little rubber stamp that says "okay, in terms of all things musical, this person was put to the test and knows their shit" so it tends to inspire confidence in both employers and students. There's a few other niche areas where such a degree is relevant. In most other areas it's not important, but that's not to say it's not worth doing. I never regretted my time at Uni (I only regretted that I wasn't single at the time).

Benefits of the degree:

* Three years of your life that didn't suck, while some other poor saps were studying law or whatever the fuck
* Get to meet cool people and build a social network that might get you employed later
* ANY University degree will impress employers - it shows you have the committment to study and succeed
* ANY University degree will qualify you to do neat things like get paid to go to Japan/Korea and teach English
* Music Uni is packed with smart, forward-thinking, single people of both sexes

Of course, on leaving Uni you're still pretty "green". Just don't get on any high horses in job interviews and wave around your Uni degree to your potential future employer like it means that you know everything about the industry or anything like that, and you can't go too far wrong. Employers don't like Uni graduates with "an attitude"...