Dark Souls has ruined the RPG for me...

[BloatedGuppy]

Gyppy: some examples of the jankiness then, please?

I can agree that some of the bosses are bullshit, the capra demon and bed of chaos being good examples. Most of the other bosses give you either a chance to actually see the arena before entering (if you take your time to explore and look around, if you run around flailing your sword like a retard you'll get your ass handed to you) or give you plenty of time to play safely and observe the boss before trying to kill it. It's generally not a problem.

Also yes, you will dies. More than once while playing through the game. That is a given, but you can drastically take your number of deaths down by actually, you know learning from your mistakes. I think the big mistake that a lot of people make is that they figure the "prepare to die" tag line refers to trial and error until you win, where as i'd say it's more focused on learn what you can adjust in your style of play to avoid dying. Take it slow, play carefully and you will save yourself a LOT of trouble. It's the running blind, sword flailing, in to the unknown that kills you, not the game being full of bullshit. The game will punish you hard for being careless while exploring. Paying attention to details, looking ahead and almost sneaking around with your shield raised is rewarded.

Just...plonky controls, substandard UI (to the point of being borderline awful), almost entirely text-only lore delivery which is...uh..."charming" for a game from this decade, abysmal immersion shattering voice acting...I could go on and on really. Dark Souls is a game where the whole is most certainly better than the sum of its parts.

For the most part conservative play and non-narcoleptic reflexes will prevent the vast majority of deaths in Dark Souls. You will, however, face-plant into some traps without ever having reason to understand that they're there, or know what they'll do, and a great many bosses have gimmick mechanics that usually take a death or two (or a VERY close call) before you know what's up. Given these deaths almost always involve laborious back tracking through previously cleared areas, I can totally understand why some people end up screaming "Why is this fun!?" at the screen. This kind of mechanic would almost never fly in another title. The fact the game has developed this whole hopeless/melancholy mise-en-scene and rolled the dying into it is why it seems almost more of an artistic flourish than bullshit game mechanic (it's both).

 

[Weaver]

Why not just play some Crawl? It's free!
http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Capra Demon isn't that bad. He's a trial and error boss who ambushes your ass, but that's part of the fun. I like that. As in, I personally, like that. Nobody is pretending to be objective here! And Capra may be in a hurry to kill you, but his difficulty is certainly not artificial.

I don't know how you'd define "artificial" difficulty. His difficulty stems from A) You have no way of knowing he's going to be up your ass 0.5 seconds after entering the room until you experience it the first time, B) You have no way of knowing what his dogs do, or that there even are dogs, until they are eating your ass and C) You have no way of knowing what the layout of the room is because your screen is full of Capra groin and dogs.

It requires some trial and error, yeah. I've always maintained that anything that REQUIRES trial and error, that you cannot reasonably be expected to one shot regardless of skill cap, is dubious game design. I don't even mind Capra Demon, but he's an example of the hijinx that lead some people to pronounce the game is an avalanche of bullshit sometimes.

 

[Itchi_da_killa]

Capra Demon isn't that bad. He's a trial and error boss who ambushes your ass, but that's part of the fun. I like that. As in, I personally, like that. Nobody is pretending to be objective here! And Capra may be in a hurry to kill you, but his difficulty is certainly not artificial.

Bed of Chaos on the other hand... yeah, that fight actually knocks the game down from a 10 to a 9.5 for me actually haha... the game devs were clearly just out of development time and rushed all of Lost Izalith out the door.

Man that's the truth! I totally feel the same way about Izalith. Clearly there are short cuts going to Firelink Shrine. I liked the Bed of Chaos though. It was a cheap and different type of challenge.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

Just...plonky controls, substandard UI (to the point of being borderline awful), almost entirely text-only lore delivery which is...uh..."charming" for a game from this decade, abysmal immersion shattering voice acting...I could go on and on really. Dark Souls is a game where the whole is most certainly better than the sum of its parts.

For the most part conservative play and non-narcoleptic reflexes will prevent the vast majority of deaths in Dark Souls. You will, however, face-plant into some traps without ever having reason to understand that they're there, or know what they'll do, and a great many bosses have gimmick mechanics that usually take a death or two (or a VERY close call) before you know what's up. Given these deaths almost always involve laborious back tracking through previously cleared areas, I can totally understand why some people end up screaming "Why is this fun!?" at the screen. This kind of mechanic would almost never fly in another title. The fact the game has developed this whole hopeless/melancholy mise-en-scene and rolled the dying into it is why it seems almost more of an artistic flourish than bullshit game mechanic (it's both).

There's nothing wrong with the controls. The only time you'll have problems with the controls is if you just go nuts on the controller, because the game has a tendency to remember what buttons you pressed while in that last animation, and execute those commands. I've muttered profanities to myself many a time because i hit the attack button prematurely on a botched parry for example. But that's not bad controls, that's the player fucking up.

Text is not janky, it's a smart way to make a game without a 150 million dollar budget. Screw voice actors, i might as well read it if it means selling 2 million copies is a huge success. I can agree that the voice talent isn't superb, but lets face it, not many games can afford really good voice actors and they aren't as cancer inducingly bad as you seem to want to make them out to be. Cheesy, yes, but acceptable imo.

I honestly think most of your "arguments" for why it's bad seem to not hold much water. But yeah, you kinda make my point there; it is a niche game. It's not a japanese version of Uncharted, and thank f**k for that, that's why it's gotten the cult status it has. Personally i'm not much for these hand-holding cinematic games that, to be fair, barely qualify as games. They try so hard to be like shitty blockbuster movies from summers past that it sucks all the joy out of playing them for me. That's why a game like Dark Souls that actually lets you explore the world, the systems and the lore, while kicking you in the teeth for not paying attention is such a refreshing experience. I fully understand that this is not for everyone and that's fine, but come on...seems to me like you are just being a contrarian for the sake of it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

There's nothing wrong with the controls. The only time you'll have problems with the controls is if you just go nuts on the controller, because the game has a tendency to remember what buttons you pressed while in that last animation, and execute those commands.

Meh. They're ponderous as hell. And the combat is nowhere near complex enough to require it. And don't even get me started on the lock on/circle. So clumsy. SOOO clumsy.

Text is not janky, it's a smart way to make a game without a 150 million dollar budget.

Well, it's cheap, yes, that's sort of the point. And the implementation of it is poor. Tabbing through numerous sub menus of menus to read tiny snippets of text is pretty awful.

I can agree that the voice talent isn't superb, but lets face it, not many games can afford really good voice actors and they aren't as cancer inducingly bad as you seem to want to make them out to be. Cheesy, yes, but acceptable imo.

Based on today's industry standard they're horrible. Not acceptable in the slightest. Especially in a game that trades so heavily on atmosphere and immersion.

I honestly think most of your "arguments" for why it's bad...

The fuck? Who said it was BAD?

It's not a japanese version of Uncharted

The FUCK? Who wanted THAT?

That's why a game like Dark Souls that actually lets you explore the world, the systems and the lore, while kicking you in the teeth for not paying attention is such a refreshing experience.

It's really not much of an open world/exploration experience, and it's most definitely not a trail blazer in that regard. This is a strange laurel to hang around its neck.

I fully understand that this is not for everyone and that's fine, but come on...seems to me like you are just being a contrarian for the sake of it.

Well that's not really the point. No game is "for everyone". That's a meaningless criticism. I *loved* Dark Souls. I just think it has some pretty obvious flaws. For discussing them, I am apparently being accused of "being contrarian for the sake of it". Given my entry into this thread was an expression of agitation with the hyperbolic praise and rabid defense the game inspires, this turn of events strikes me as decidedly ironic.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

I just don't understand your complaints. To read the item description of an item it's ONE button press with the item selected in the menu. Is that really so horrible? If anything i think the games lack of explanation as to how the stats interact with each other and how they impact the game is the big flaw, not that you have to press a button to read an item description. The voice acting thing, well this is not a huge AAA production and so i'm willing to let it slide. Sure it's not great, i'm not denying that.

Let's talk about the exploration. The world is not huge, but pretty much every corner holds something. Compare that to something like GTA or Skyrim that has a HUGE map but very little in it. I mean it's a matter of opinion, but i prefer to thoroughly explore the smaller areas of the Souls games because there is a lot of stuff hidden all over the place. When i say exploration of the systems and lore, i mean discovering how the game works, what strategies work, what weapons/equipment work and how. Just learning the system, exploring the GAME, not the current level. Finding that new weapon in Dark Souls can have a huge impact on how you play the game, finding that level adjusted ebony sword in copy-pasted dank cave #438 in skyrim does not, which heightens the feeling of accomplishment and curiosity when exploring in DS.

The controls, just what is your problem? How are they bad, or "ponderous" as you put it? I think they are pretty straight forward, aside from the somewhat unorthodox (but quite functional) layout. The lockon works fine, the only real beef i have with it is that some times it snaps on to weird enemies in your periphery after killing your current target, but that happens so rarely that it's hardly something worth taking up. Otherwise, look at an enemy in range, click the stick and that's it. What part of that is bad?

I suppose you didn't say out right that you think it's a bad game, but your general tendency doesn't exactly seem to lean towards fair judgement here, as you are basically nitpicking at every possible loose end you can find to prove that the game is flawed.

 

[Augustine]

Try Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen
I found my experience in this game both familiar in the context of DS and unique in it's own way.
Specifically, the expansion element of it brings a lot of the high difficulty challenges.

Some of the boss fights in dogma are brilliantly designed, in my humble opinion.
'Tis a good game.

 

[nohorsetown]

I haven't played them, but you might wanna check out the King's Field series. Apparently Demon's Souls was a spiritual successor to King's Field.

I can't really think of anything I've played that captures the same feel as the Souls games . . . Dragon's Dogma was obviously trying to bite their style (the "Dark Arisen" expansion area probably comes closest), but yeah, it's not the same.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Not sure why anyone is bringing up the Witcher games. They're as different from Dark Souls as Dark Souls is from Skyrim.

I admire Dark Souls a lot, and really enjoyed my time with it. It has a place in my top 100 games. I do admit to some surprise, however, at the cult like following it has. It's not uncommon for fans of a game to hand wave its flaws in favor of praising its qualities, I've just seldom seen it done to SUCH an extent as with Dark Souls. It's one of the very few cases where praise of a game has started to rankle me and make me more critical than I'd otherwise be of a title I actually enjoyed, because it's just so OTT. Game has serious flaws, yo.

Yeah, I agree. Love the Souls series, but the insane amount of praise that the fans throw around about the series is ridiculous. Sorry, but the game is not perfect in every way, nor did it do everything first. Hell, it has some pretty serious flaws that really ruin the pacing and that STILL haven't been fixed.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I just don't understand your complaints. To read the item description of an item it's ONE button press with the item selected in the menu. Is that really so horrible?

It occurs to me that this may be a PC/Console divide. I'm a PC Gamer. I grew up with them. I am used to mouse snap and *extremely* responsive controls. Ponderous turns, lock on to circle instead of just strafing...it all feels insanely clunky. Not clunky in the "This game is kind of shit/broken" sense, like, say, Path of Exile. But certainly not crisp.

Let's talk about the exploration. The world is not huge, but pretty much every corner holds something. Compare that to something like GTA or Skyrim that has a HUGE map but very little in it. I mean it's a matter of opinion, but i prefer to thoroughly explore the smaller areas of the Souls games because there is a lot of stuff hidden all over the place. When i say exploration of the systems and lore, i mean discovering how the game works, what strategies work, what weapons/equipment work and how. Just learning the system, exploring the GAME, not the current level. Finding that new weapon in Dark Souls can have a huge impact on how you play the game, finding that level adjusted ebony sword in copy-pasted dank cave #438 in skyrim does not, which heightens the feeling of accomplishment and curiosity when exploring in DS.

Yes, Dark Souls is a more mechanically robust game than Skyrim, but again...I don't find these merits to weaknesses comparisons very invigorating. It's rare that I play a game that doesn't do at least one thing very well, and rare that I play a game that doesn't do at least half a dozen things really badly. The existence of one does not cancel out the other, and I don't want to compare Dark Souls' combat mechanics to Skyrim any more than I want to compare The Walking Dead's storytelling to XCOM.

I also disagree completely that "every corner of the world holds something", but it is a much more directed experience.

quote="Rutabaga_swe" post="9.832743.20350380"]I suppose you didn't say out right that you think it's a bad game, but your general tendency doesn't exactly seem to lean towards fair judgement here, as you are basically nitpicking at every possible loose end you can find to prove that the game is flawed.[/quote]

It shouldn't require "proof". Is there honestly a consensus that the game is flawless that I need to argue against?

It's not a bad game at all. Bad games don't develop cult followings. It's a very tough game to love though, and there's a lot of bullshit to plow through to get to the meat. It's not a game I'd ever universally recommend. Requires a very, very specific kind of gamer to fully enjoy. IMO, naturally.

 

[Denizen]

So until Dark Souls II comes out, am I stuck in this limbo? Are there any other games that will give a good fix?

I have that problem with many genres and games. You've found the peak and realize there's nowhere to go but down. The scariest part is the idea of the peak no longer being interesting and then you're faced with nowhere to fall back on. It's not necessarily something wrong with the other games (arguably) but that you found the best game to fit your current favorite style of play and Dark Souls is a hell of an amazing game to call favorite.

Also I get what you mean by Skyrim. It's more like GTA:Fantasy which is very much a shame considering the past games. While many considered Oblivion to be the step in that direction, modders made Oblivion pseudo - Morrowind 2 and if I'm not mistaken, I imagine now at this point modders could have done the same with Skyrim. Although my TES series friends did agree, it would take a ton of work to make Skyrim a respectable fantasy adventure game considering it took Oblivion 2-6 years to gain its status as that one game that's got mods for everything. It's 2013 and it's got mods for everything for expanding that previous everything.

Anyway, good luck, there's no shame in finding the peak, it just means other series haven't caught up yet

 

[MrDumpkins]

I have a craving for a good fantasy adventure game. I went through a few titles like Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning before finally finding Dark Souls, and now I am corrupted. I have 422 hours racked up between three characters on that game. I have tried to play other games like, Dragon's Dogma, Dragon Age and even Skyrim, but they don't satisfy. The closest I came to capturing that spirit was with Demon's Souls. I chewed that up real quick though and spit out a platinum trophy before going back to playing Dark Souls some more.

So until Dark Souls II comes out, am I stuck in this limbo? Are there any other games that will give a good fix?



By the way, in fairness to Skyrim: I'm confident that it is an awesome game but It just hasn't grab my attention.

Well there are some other developers (some German one) that are going to be making more games in the like of the soul series. Unfortunately that doesn't help you now, Dark Souls is probably in my top 3 games ever. There just aren't enough people that actually want this type of game for it to have more mainstream success. Just be happy we're getting a sequel and that there were actually people in this world awesome enough to make this series in the first place

 

[Fractral]

snip

Do I remember you as that guy who did a sort-of-not-really LP of the game when it came out on PC? What turned you off it so much?

OT: I liked the game, but I'm probably going to have to accept that I'm never going to finish it. I died so many times on the four kings that I decided to do the dukes archives instead and then got stuck there. Which is a shame, because everything up to meeting frampt for the first time was great fun, especially the painted world.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

It shouldn't require "proof". Is there honestly a consensus that the game is flawless that I need to argue against?

That's not what i mean, i mean you are just nitpicking for the sake of it. Many of these gripes you have seem rather minor to me. They are there, sure, but certainly many of them are negligible. But again, i don't think that the game is flawless by any means, just that the flaws you point out are rather not actually flaws or so small that there is no need to even bring them up. Especially when there are a lot larger concerns to be had with the game, like the insanely crappy online functionality, again some bosses and sections of the game that throw fairness out the window and just goes for a cheap "fuck you" kind of death, and the general ambiguity of the game (it literally takes a community to figure out how to play the game, but i suppose that is both good and bad. Some of the best memories i have of the game comes form sharing discoveries with friends and on forums and so forth).

As for the controls, sure i grew up on the NES and didn't get a PC until later, i think Half-life was the first game i played on my own PC. But that's not really the point now, is it? I do 90% of my gamin on PC currently and that said, the best way to control a game like dark souls is with a pad. If you played it with KBM i fully understand that you thought the controls were shit. Because the PC port is so damn terrible there are no words to describe it. Without a 360 pad and Durante's fix it's basically unplayable. I couldn't even imagine trying to aim the different weapons and items without the lockon. The game is just designed around the lock-on mechanic, and it works well.

 

[Ishal]

snip

Do I remember you as that guy who did a sort-of-not-really LP of the game when it came out on PC? What turned you off it so much?

OT: I liked the game, but I'm probably going to have to accept that I'm never going to finish it. I died so many times on the four kings that I decided to do the dukes archives instead and then got stuck there. Which is a shame, because everything up to meeting frampt for the first time was great fun, especially the painted world.

I don't think anything turned him off it, but I'm not him so I won't speak for him.

From his posts he just seems frustrated or baffled by the zealotry of Dark Souls fans and community members, and yeah it's a problem. The game has a host of problems and in many respects Demon's Souls is actually a better game.

I could list all of Dark Souls' problems but some of the patch jobs FROM has done broke parts of it and as previously mentioned Bed of Chaos was so shit that the director himself came out on his own accord and publicly apologized for it.

Dark Souls is an engaging experience that has more than a few things in it I've never seen done in a game before. But certain members of the community hating Skyrim (for whatever stupid reasons) and denying criticism is just bad. Though it shouldn't change one's opinion of the game itself.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

snip

Do I remember you as that guy who did a sort-of-not-really LP of the game when it came out on PC? What turned you off it so much?

Yeah that was me. And I didn't turn off it! I like it a lot! I just think it's a pretty warty game.

That's not what i mean, i mean you are just nitpicking for the sake of it.

Really? Again?

Many of these gripes you have seem rather minor to me.

That's nice. They're not remotely minor to me. They came very, very close to killing the game for me in the opening hours. Fortunately I am a Very Patient Man, and I gave the game long enough to work its particular brand of magic.

Especially when there are a lot larger concerns to be had with the game, like the insanely crappy online functionality

GFWL aside, the online functionality seemed fine on PC.

again some bosses and sections of the game that throw fairness out the window and just goes for a cheap "fuck you" kind of death

I acknowledged this elsewhere in the thread.

and the general ambiguity of the game (it literally takes a community to figure out how to play the game, but i suppose that is both good and bad. Some of the best memories i have of the game comes form sharing discoveries with friends and on forums and so forth).

I consider the ambiguity a huge plus.

As for the controls, sure i grew up on the NES and didn't get a PC until later, i think Half-life was the first game i played on my own PC. But that's not really the point now, is it? I do 90% of my gamin on PC currently and that said, the best way to control a game like dark souls is with a pad. If you played it with KBM i fully understand that you thought the controls were shit. Because the PC port is so damn terrible there are no words to describe it. Without a 360 pad and Durante's fix it's basically unplayable. I couldn't even imagine trying to aim the different weapons and items without the lockon. The game is just designed around the lock-on mechanic, and it works well.

I played with a pad, post DX-Fix. I didn't experience 95% of the port's more notorious issues, although getting DS Fix working was a trial in and of itself.

Well, I'd define artificial difficulty as 'you will die numerous times, no matter how often you practice the fight or how skilled you are' aka exactly what happens at Bed of Bullshit(although I have seen speedrunners who can do it in one go).

Mm. Fair enough.

DS has actually led me to believe that the desire for games to be one-shot-able is itself rather dubious and limiting. Isn't it also fun to be overwhelmed and forced to learn by careful trial and error?

You misunderstand me. I like a difficult game. I CRAVE it sometimes. I don't want to one-shot everything. What I want to be able to do is one-shot an encounter if I'm good enough. If I do all the right things. If my leet skillz are up to snuff, ya know? I don't want to feel like I was gonna die there NO MATTER WHAT, and the learning experience is doing the 6 things I need to do in perfect sequence to survive, learned only via failure. That's shit.

 

[babinro]

I've had that happen to me with games before.

Dragon Age Origins was so good that I couldn't tolerate non-story driven experiences like Skyrim/Fallout for quite a while. Street Fighter 2 has always alienated me from any other fighter on the market. I can't even get into the Marvel VS Capcom games.

Diablo 3 has spoiled loot hunt games for me these days. I keep reading how Path of Exile and Torchlight 2 are far superior and offer more choice and yet they just don't capture the addictive experience of D3. I really enjoyed Torchlight and so I gladly bought Torchlight 2 early on. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with the game but I had to force myself to even put 10 hours into it. Eventually I just put it down since the experience never improved for me.

In time this will likely fade and you'll be able to appreciate other games in the genre for what excellent aspects they offer. Even if they continue to be completely inferior as far as overall quality in your eyes.