Death to the Mana Bar!

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Ymbirtt

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Well, Magicka had no mana bar, and it worked out alright there. That's more because it was balanced out with having every one of your spells specifically designed to kill you and all your friends before even touching an enemy, though. It is an interesting idea, though, and one which could be rather cleverly exploited. I mean, what if there was a single player RPG where you were effectively a Magicka wizard, but people actually judged you if you went round killing civillians and allies? It'd be a bit more moral choice than "good VS evil" then, since you'd have "struggling in combat to save your allies VS killing everything on the screen every half second, then being slated for genocide".
 

Whateveralot

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Another option would be that magic acts corrupting. Use a little magic and you're fine. Use a lot of powerful magic, and it will afflict you slightly. Go all-out with spells, you will become corrupted and eventually die or accidentally summon ragnaros.
 

ZeroMachine

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TornadoFive said:
ZeroMachine said:
"I don't know how to play a mage right and I suck at it, so I want them buffed to unfair levels."

Anyone else read that? Sorry, OP, but it honestly just sounds like you're not that good at being a mage.

You want unlimited god powers, go cheat in Oblivion or something. We like challenge in our games, and playing a mage presents a damn fun one if you know what you're doing.

TornadoFive said:
I've always thought the mana bar should be replaced by a fatigue system. Like, the more spells you cast in a row, the tireder you'll get, and the weaker you'll spells will be. That would make more sense to me.

And yeah, I clicked here cause I thought you were talking about Yahtzee's bar. Good to see I wasn't the only one!
That's actually a pretty awesome idea... also, your avatar is fuckin' sick, if a little contradictory :p
What's contradictory about it? It clearly represents a multi-national company dedicated to preserving humanities existance, but instead of killing their enemies, they capture them for testing! All in the name of science! Pretty straight-forward! :p
That's not the Abstergo symbol... that's the Assassin symbol. The group that would be against the multi-national company...
 

PROTOTYPical

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Legion said:
I thought this was going to be about Yahtzees bar in Australia, I am actually kind of disappointed as it would have made an interesting topic.
HAHA! Same here =P I'm not too disappointed though, because not only is this not a thread condeming Yahtzee's seemingly awesome establishment (I thought it might be going out of business or something '~'), but I now understand the pun. Yes I'm that dumb.
 

Cheesus333

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I think you'd be complaining about no difficulty in games if they had no limit on your (eventually) Godlike magical powers. Think about it, what's more rewarding?

A) Wiping out an entire opposing force in an instant with a single move. Or...

B) Tactically managing your powers to destroy them in small groups at a time, eventually resulting in a well-deserved victory.

Option B for me, every time. Canonically it makes very little sense, I know, but you can't forget that it's a game and must abide by certain rules.

ZeroMachine said:
That's not the Abstergo symbol... that's the Assassin symbol. The group that would be against the multi-national company...
I think he was combining the main aspects of all three companies represented in the image: the Assassins, Aperture and Cerberus. The Assassins and Cerberus preserve the species, and Aperture and Cerberus have testing in common.
 

Mighty Wulrus

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How about stamina? As in the force of life, not necessarily health directly, but your ability to run, jump, fight and cast magic all draw from your "stamina" bar? This would approach the classic film perception of magic users, collapsing when their power has been exerted to that extent.
 

Bloodstain

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Well, being uber-awesome-godlike in games is simply not fun.
(On a side note: I too thought this was going to be about Yahtzee's bar)

trooper6 said:
And second, Tolkien's universe what exceptionally high-magic. Gandalf does not bust out massive spells. Here's an article noting that he's probably only 5th level:

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7338
Gandalf wasn't allowed to use his magic as he could have. The Valar (gods) forbid it because the races of middle earth should do it on their own, without the Maiar (Gandalf and so on) marching in and rescuing everyone. Gandalf is as powerful has Sauron. Also, Maiar in general are as powerful as the Valar, but have a lesser rank. I receommend reading the Silmarillion.
 

TornadoFive

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ZeroMachine said:
TornadoFive said:
ZeroMachine said:
"I don't know how to play a mage right and I suck at it, so I want them buffed to unfair levels."

Anyone else read that? Sorry, OP, but it honestly just sounds like you're not that good at being a mage.

You want unlimited god powers, go cheat in Oblivion or something. We like challenge in our games, and playing a mage presents a damn fun one if you know what you're doing.

TornadoFive said:
I've always thought the mana bar should be replaced by a fatigue system. Like, the more spells you cast in a row, the tireder you'll get, and the weaker you'll spells will be. That would make more sense to me.

And yeah, I clicked here cause I thought you were talking about Yahtzee's bar. Good to see I wasn't the only one!
That's actually a pretty awesome idea... also, your avatar is fuckin' sick, if a little contradictory :p
What's contradictory about it? It clearly represents a multi-national company dedicated to preserving humanities existance, but instead of killing their enemies, they capture them for testing! All in the name of science! Pretty straight-forward! :p
That's not the Abstergo symbol... that's the Assassin symbol. The group that would be against the multi-national company...
The multi-national part was refering to Aperture. I can't remember if it specifically tells you they're multi-national, but judging by the size of the place in Portal 2, they probably are!
 

SaltyOrange

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I think most of us,if not all,came here expecting something about Yahtzee's bar.
OT:I can't really imagine anything replacing the mana bar,except maybe a blurry screen as you get tired and lose mana.
 

Alpha1Niner

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AbsoluteVirtue18 said:
Legion said:
I thought this was going to be about Yahtzees bar in Australia, I am actually kind of disappointed as it would have made an interesting topic.
I was kind of hoping for that, too. I'd kill to have one of those here in the States.
Both of these sum up what I was thinking. Perhaps the title could be revised to avoid confusion.
 

JMeganSnow

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3rd rung said:
I don't think mana bars are the best way to do that, so I agree with you on that, but unrestricted use is not the answer hear.
Mana bars aren't bad for games where you can *either* spam lots of relatively low-power spells, OR tactically cast a few big ones. It gets out of whack when they don't carefully tune how much mana you have with what you're likely to need to DO with it and the relative value of those spells.

Having individual abilities on varying cooldowns works reasonably well, too. What annoys me is when they have BOTH variable mana costs AND variable cooldowns (although I play DDO, which does this, and they've managed to tune it fairly well.) I also don't like the cooldowns method so much because they tend to give you "non-magical" abilities that ALSO have cooldowns and it makes the different tactical approaches ALL EXACTLY THE SAME. It also means that you have INCREDIBLE burst damage because you will start every fight with every ability up and ready to go.

I mean, there are all sorts of options where you can make magic feel more powerful than swinging a sword (so you want to use it), yet not let it be the be-all, end-all of the game so non-casters have their value. Let's look at some options:

1. Traditional mana bar, and spells have relative point costs based on what they do.
2. Variable special ability cooldowns.
3. "Charged" abilities, where you have to build up a store of power by doing something other than casting, like punching enemies or whatever, then you get to "finish" with the ability. Maybe if you're going more for a straight-caster feel, you have to throw so many lesser spells before you can throw a big one. You can also do this inversely, where every time you throw a spell you build up "heat" or "magic toxicity" which hurts you severely or just cuts off all spellcasting entirely once it hits a certain level.
4. "Conditional" abilities that only work under very specific conditions. So, you may have some nice insta-death effects, but they only work if you've already gotten an enemy down to 1/2 health. Or you can only throw your massive firestorm if you've laid down a "fire sphere" area. And it doesn't work indoors or in the rain and water creatures can put it out.
5. Extreme Friendly Fire (particularly when you can accidentally blow yourself up quite easily). That rain of meteors spell you have? It's great! Except that the area is so huge it's almost impossible to cast it and not hit yourself. A lot. Granted, that one time when you managed to climb up that hill over the town and target it JUST right and take out the WHOLE TOWN IN ONE SPELL, that was SWEET. You did it ONCE. IN THE WHOLE GAME.
6. Spell components. I'm not particularly into this method (unless it's done really well and thematically) because basically it's treating magic like it's a gun, and you need ammo. But it is a functional method, provided you can't just buy and carry more components than you could *ever conceivably need*. To me, this would be more interesting in a game where it's tied to the exploration and the game mechanics, so you actually have to go out and find most components on your own, then turn them into spells which you can then use.
7. Prepared spells. (As in D&D). I'm not a big fan of this method, particularly not in real-time games, but it does accomplish mostly what it's supposed to accomplish, which is making you use your magic as a limited resource.
8. Recharge stations. This is basically a different version of spell components/mana bar, where you have to go "recharge" your ability to use stuff. You could implement this in such a way that it didn't mimic the ammo/mana bar model, however, by having spells be ablative: every time you cast one, it's weaker than the last one you cast, and recharging doesn't let you cast more spells, it resets you back to MAXIMUM POWER spells. This might also be a fun mechanic because you could throw in lots of items that give you a partial recharge to one spell category, maybe, or will swap charge from one category to another, or whatever. Lots of interesting stuff could be done with that. You could also make it so that categories have several different spells, like an attack spell, a defense spell, and a utility spell, and have a large part of the strategy of the game be about finding ways to use the attacks from one category, the defense from a different category, and the utility from a third category so that you're not constantly running out of charge.
9. Magic doesn't do the same things as non-magic. One of the major reasons why magic HAS to be limited at all is that it basically just replaces stuff you could do either a.) not as well without magic or b.) not as easily. Why invest in stealth when you can just cast a low-level spell and make yourself invisible? Why struggle to get decent weapons and armor when you can just cast a protection spell and throw fireballs? Why learn to pick locks and have to play that damn mini-game over and over and over and over and over and over when you can just throw Magic Unlock and be done with it? Or, worse, magic STACKS with the non-magical methods, so you will ALWAYS be better off having BOTH armor AND magic protection. (When this is done, mage characters are universally more powerful than non-mages, because your non-mage simply can't reach the levels of ANYTHING that the mage can.) So, have it do entirely different stuff. They do this a bit in some games where you can use magic to telekinetically fetch objects or get people to stop attacking you or change shape to fit through small holes or whatever. But they usually flub it big time by making it so that you HAVE to have the magical abilities to do the specific puzzles, and they use precisely the same puzzles over and over and over and over so it becomes incredibly tedious as well as incredibly inconvenient not to be a mage. You can even do this to an extent with combat magic by having magic be your only area-of-effect damage, it just sucks in comparison to single-target damage done by ranged or melee. So, you can have a non-mage character who can annihilate single enemies, while the mage slowly whittles away at groups.

Anyway, you get the idea.
 

Sarpedon

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Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking this was a hate-post against Yahtzee and ZP. :3
 

Sicram

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I like how guild wars put it. Every class has an enegry bar and a majority of skills use energy (some adrenalin which you gain through fighting, very few such skills). For instance, I always wanted the magic weapons in oblivion to use up my stamina instead of some lame charge. Hell, I'd rather ditch the magicka bar and only have stamina.

In the DA universe there's even a background codex where it says that "mana is the magic potential of how much a mage can draw from the fade before exhaustion", there was even writting something about that trying to cast a spell with too little "mana" would make the mage faint... or something.

I don't think magic use is untiring in most fantasies, 'cept maybe for asian ones where they shoot megadeathlazors from their fingertips and asplode mountains.
 

JMeganSnow

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Bloodstain said:
I receommend reading the Silmarillion.
Don't read the Silmarillion. Unless you're one of those people who likes to watch "The Making of . . ." segments and so forth.
 

loc978

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This is one reason I prefer the Star Wars D20 vitality/wound system to the hp/mp system. In nearly every high fantasy novel, a spellcaster becomes physically and mentally exhausted when they make use of powerful magic... yet in most high fantasy games, a spellcaster simply becomes unable to cast further magic until they reacquire their magic in some way. They can still perform physical feats exactly the same as if they had full MP/prepared spells/whatever.
In my D&D campaigns, wizards, mages and clerics still have to prepare their spells, but the spell also takes some of their vitality when they cast it. Sorcerers and shamanic priests simply know spells, and using those spells drains their vitality at a higher rate (especially if they eschew material components with certain spells... and I'm working under a hybridized 2nd edition, no centralized feats). At higher levels, spellcasters gain a second vitality point pool that is only usable in spellcasting.

So in short, my answer to the 'mana bar' is the existence of a 'stamina bar'. Drain that thing, and there are more consequences than a simple lack of spellcasting ability... and taking real wounds does more than just drain the red bar.
 

Slycne

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dfcrackhead said:
I prefer the mana bar to the D&D system of "You can use X number of spells per day, you run out, oh well, good thing wizards have such high STR and CON right? Oh... you don't? Sorry"
Expect those X number of spells are pretty much always more powerful than anything using a mana system, in fact the most common complaints in those systems is that at high levels magic is much to powerful in relation to fighting based classes. I also really like the Jack Vance style, the Dungeons and Dragon's magic system is based on the writing of Jack Vance, for its flavor. The wizardly scholar tirelessly preparing their incantations, formulas and runes to bend the elemental planes to their will is something finite you can imagine and latch on too. The mana bar always comes across as a lazy mans explanation, the blue stuff let's me do it and sometimes I have to study so I can use more blue stuff.

Nikolaz72 said:
trooper6 said:
As a dedicated RPG fan, you should know that the limitations on spellcasting goes back to the RPG source: Dungeons and Dragons. And second, Tolkien's universe what exceptionally high-magic. Gandalf does not bust out massive spells. Here's an article noting that he's probably only 5th level:

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7338

If you want a game where you can destroy everything and have no limits (and therefore no challenges), you'll probably have to make it yourself.
Or his a Multiclass. . I mean its not like a 5th level wizard is gonna beat a boss. Solo. Maybe his like, a Multiclass Wizard/Duelist/Fighter/rogue/druid/diplomat/scholar. . . yea, nvm.
Why can't a 5th level character beat a boss? The game didn't always used to be scaled around 20 to 30 levels. A 4th level fighter was actually thought to be a hero in earlier editions, someone capable of defeating 4 normal men in single combat or fighting straight up with an ogre.

But sadly D&D has been needlessly raising the level cap through the editions, which leads to these kind of situations when people attempt to theorize class and level of fictional characters, not that they were designed with those kind of restrictions in the first place.
 

Zorg Machine

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Just because you have unlimited magic doesn't mean that you are all powerful.

You just add another limitation like casting time or reagents or something that actually makes sense instead of the mana bar.
 

ShakyFiend

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Am I the only one who came here with the original impression that this was a call to arms against yahtzee's business practices? Probably means ive been watching too much ZP.
 

JMeganSnow

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Sicram said:
In the DA universe there's even a background codex where it says that "mana is the magic potential of how much a mage can draw from the fade before exhaustion", there was even writting something about that trying to cast a spell with too little "mana" would make the mage faint... or something.
Yeah, and it might actually have been interesting if they'd implemented mages fainting or going into shock in the game. As it was, you just had a mana bar like any other game, and it didn't matter in the least because you could drink mana potions endlessly with no repercussions.

Having mages collapse and die when they abuse their spells would be a lovely mechanic in a multiplayer game for the humor factor ALONE. Or if Bioware had implemented it that the whole demonic possession thing actually had some kind of mechanical effect in the game. It really felt like the mage protagonist and party mages lived in an entirely different mechanical universe from the other mages you encouter, who are constantly getting possessed by demons or summoning demons or pulling off impossible feats. I would have really enjoyed it if I overcast my mana pool (through inattention) and my mage promptly turned into a demon and annihilated everything in sight, followed shortly thereafter by a "game over" screen, particularly if nowhere in the manual does it warn you that this can happen.

You could very easily implement this sort of thing, too, by having your health bar and mana bar be the same thing. They do that a little with Blood Magic in Dragon Age, but it's poorly implemented because you can just switch back to using your mana bar. Worse, if you build your character in a specific way, you will never run out because healing yourself is low-cost, and both your health and mana regenerate. So all you do is turn on blood magic mode, cast until you're low on health, switch, heal, switch back. Jade Empire did the same silly thing where you could heal yourself by dumping your mana, and then they gave you a power that let you recharge your mana by punching things.
 

EPolleys

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Well if unlimited power and no recharge are your thing I'd look at Magicka, that game is mega fun with friends.