Discrimination in gaming

[Erttheking]

I think there should be a variety of female characters and any body type.

The problem is that you know who and those like her want to get rid of one type of female character and superimpose their 'ideal' version of what a female character should look like at all costs.

But then they'll just complain any because that's what those people do,to quote one of my favorite youtubers here."You can't please these people ever."

Like I just said in the other thread. Can we stop talking about "These people" and stop acting like people are never happy with female characters? I lot of the social progressives you were criticizing in your other thread were pretty happy with Zayra.

Who said I was criticizing them?I'm pointing out a pattern of behavior I've seen over the years.

Basically it goes like this:

Female PC gets put in danger:"OMG!You're victimizing women!"

Female PC is shown as capable as her male counterparts:"OMG!She's just a male with boobs!"

Female PC is shown as being proud of her sexiness:"OMG!She's being objectified!"


And any female character that does conform to their ideal picture of women gets bitched at anyway because of minor nitpicks.

As one of my art friends said:"Screw those whiners,artists should create whatever they want.

If they want to create women or dudes wearing nothing but loin cloth that's their right.Fuck,they could create a picture of a duck riding a bear that's riding a whale while traveling the Pacific and that would be okay.Funny as hell but okay.

But the moment you start chewing out me and other artists because we don't make art the way YOU want is when I'll tell you to fuck off and make your own stuff."

See, this is why I hate talking about "these people" because everyone has their own definition of what these people are and it doesn't translate well in conversation.

Any female character gets "bitched away" due to minor nitpicks? May I ask how this is different from damn near every other aspect of gaming that people rip apart on a semi-daily basis? And yes there are people who criticize female characters that I like and I disagree with their criticisms, (Anita) but they are nowhere near as widespread as you make them out to be. Heck, nowadays I see a hell of a lot more people complaining about people complaining about sexism than I do just people complaining about sexism. Just about all the threads currently active on the escapist right now were started by people who said they wanted people to stop complaining about sexism.

Yeah see, I'm an artist, I write, and I have experience with people telling me I could've been handling the way I write women better. And I listened to them and I feel like I grew as an artist. Being an artist means knowing when you can improve and taking criticism into account, finding the ones that can actually help your work while ignoring the useless ones. The most important thing an artist needs to know is that they're not infallible, they will mess up, and they're gonna need someone else to point it out. Not shouting "Don't like, don't read"

And that's exactly what my friend does,she's constantly looking for feedback to improve her work.

But what she does'nt like are the people who do nothing but whine and never offer solutions to whatever they think is the problem.And quite frankly neither do I.

You gotta admit that someone pointing out flaws in your work and offering ideas to improve is a lot more preferable than someone going"This is awful!I don't like it so either remove it or change otherwise I'll tell everyone how offensive your art is on Twitter."

Good.

First of all, ever since I've gotten really into gamer culture I've seen a lot of words be overused in a way that has made me dislike them. Whine is one of them. It's basically saying "Person who's arguments I am dismissing without considering them at all". And yes, people complaining without offering much in the way of solutions, but I have to ask if that's really as big as a problem as you make it out to be, as even the hardcore "SJWs" I see on the net seem to have solutions to what they don't like

Does that actually happen with any regularity?

From what I've seen it does and it's only getting more frequent.You have artists that are trying to walk on egg shells doing their best not to draw the ire of the perpetually offended.As a result they can't make what they want to make without fearing ridiculous blowback from moral puritans.

The recent thing with Lionhead shows how loud and obnoxious the moral outrage brigade can be;to the point where devs pull artwork preemptively to avoid their incessant bitching.

Puritans? Don't you think you're just blowing things a little out of proportion? Last time I checked Saints Row still let you smack people in the face with a giant dildo, Bayonetta 2 hasn't gone anywhere, there are women who are practically topless in Far Cry 4, so you're gonna have to pardon me if you saying artists are being forced to walk on eggshells comes off as a bit hyperbolic. It's ironic really, you're criticizing people for overreacting and making things out be worse than they are, while overreacting and making things out to be worse than they regularly are.

Also if you want to show how people are not allowed to do the art they want, a stupid joke would be a better example. Seriously, they just put up a picture that was just a stupid joke and took it down when people didn't like it. I'm not exactly feeling no one can make what they want because of that.

They're puritans because they flip the fuck out if a woman shows some skin in a video game or artwork.

They are really no different from the bible thumpers except it's "think of the women" this time.

And no,only a loud and obnoxious minority disliked the image,everyone else including other game devs did'nt have a problem with it or found the image to be the humor it was intended to be.

If a woman shows skin? Considering that, you know, people like Bayonetta are actually popular with the "SJWs" I feel like you're blowing things out of proportion.

I'm pretty sure these people religious fanatics. Can we please stick to provable criticisms and not hyberbolic ones?

If it was just a loud minority, then Liongate has no spine and I don't feel sorry for them.

 

[Redryhno]

If a woman shows skin? Considering that, you know, people like Bayonetta are actually popular with the "SJWs" I feel like you're blowing things out of proportion.

I'm pretty sure these people religious fanatics. Can we please stick to provable criticisms and not hyberbolic ones?

If it was just a loud minority, then Liongate has no spine and I don't feel sorry for them.

Considering the people that say they like her also complain about her impossible body proportions and how she was designed purely for da male gaze, I'm gonna have to call bull. And seriously, can you stop with the religious fanatics argument? There's not many of them and most of them don't have internet(excepting the Amish, they're actually pretty fun people to be around) so there's not much there either that can't be called hyperbole.

And just for the record, it's Lionhead, at least make sure you're talking about the right thing and not a movie studio. They're a small company nowadays, just an offshoot of Microsoft with a hundred people working there on a good week, vocal minorities can(and have in history) make or break them. Saying you don't feel sorry for them is like saying you don't feel sorry for the family that works five jobs to make just enough to stay broke and in a drafty lease house with no repairs in sight because they had the gall to make a joke about their landlord to their neighbor.

It's like the variant cover again, people think it's in bad taste because they have no background on the company, the stories they write, the games they make, and the jokes they tell. Silly people saying silly things again.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

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You're ignoring one of my key point though, it's really only a specific genre and type where men arguably outnumber women on boxes. Most of my boxes share space too, and I think that's on the path to actual balance. Now that I've had the time to go through entire collection, it's still only 5 and a half games (One features an alleged hermaphrodite) of my games boxes exclusively feature only a male, while 6 of them features exclusively female characters.

Out of all the games I could find that I own, 14 of them have female leads compared to the 10 male leads. While 45 of my game's leads are either shared by both genders or player determinate.

I don't really think its fair to discredit games that let you pick genders like that, it just further cements that this "issue" is self inflicted.

There really was never a shortage of female leads, people just don't look for them, don't gravitate, or ignore them. As far as the whole of gaming goes, the amount of female to male leads are more or less, about even. The only place were the balance is lacking is in popularity, which isn't something that can really be fixed.

snip

That's insinuating one cannot make what they perceive as attractive without it being apart of their sexual fantasies, and if that's the case I have a whole new appreciation for a lot of artist, considering many of them made their works with one hand.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

Don't get me wrong it's a MASSIVE step in the right direction but, well, I'd like to see more games with female leads and only female leads. I find that balance is the best way to go, I don't like male characters to outnumber female characters in my story and vice versa. We've got plenty of games where you can customize a character, but honestly those characters are more about us projecting ourselves. I feel like the industry could benefit from a nice balance of main characters.

I think the balance is already pretty nice. Looking at my collection of games, both physical and digital, I can play as female in 61% of them. Those games either have the option to play as female or they are female only. Hell, I can even name a bunch of games that have female protagonist or female only protagonist that I still don't own but I'm planning to buy.

My point is that I think people are over dramatic with this issue. You can definitely build up a collection of games with many female protagonists if you only wish to do so.

Sure, in my collection 87% can be played as male so numbers are somewhat towards those but it's not so bad in my opinion.

Small edit: I didn't count games like platformers or puzzle games where gender is non-existent or doesn't really matter.

 

[theNater]

what's so sick about sexual fantasies?

Not all sexual fantasies are sick. But "The only reason Mario ever did any of that mushroom enduced platforming and fight off a big fire breathing dragon was for some hot princess pussy. Period." is a little sick.

I think the balance is already pretty nice. Looking at my collection of games, both physical and digital, I can play as female in 61% of them. Those games either have the option to play as female or they are female only. Hell, I can even name a bunch of games that have female protagonist or female only protagonist that I still don't own but I'm planning to buy.

My point is that I think people are over dramatic with this issue. You can definitely build up a collection of games with many female protagonists if you only wish to do so.

Sure, in my collection 87% can be played as male so numbers are somewhat towards those but it's not so bad in my opinion.

Small edit: I didn't count games like platformers or puzzle games where gender is non-existent or doesn't really matter.

By my calculations, that's 13% female only, 39% male only, and 48% gender optional. Three times as many of your games are male only as female only. That doesn't strike you as odd at all?

 

[SquallTheBlade]

By my calculations, that's 13% female only, 39% male only, and 48% gender optional. Three times as many of your games are male only as female only. That doesn't strike you as odd at all?

Nope because there are so many games which have the option to play as female anyway. You can never have exactly 50/50 ratio anyway nor should you demand something like that.

Sure the numbers could be more towards female only but like I said I think that the problem isn't as bad as many make it out to be.

Games with female leads are out there. People make them and people buy them. This industry is clearly free and willing to make such games. Why isn't it a 50/50 ratio then? Maybe it is because of the gaming market. Supply and demand. The market for female only leads is simply smaller. That itself isn't a problem.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.

The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.

How are they real? Yes the photo shop adverts arnt as they air brush all negatives issues. With others, they are real woman but still using them for a reason and thus girls grow up thinking thats normal. I was working with the police and they say young girl that send naked photos of themselves via phones dont see that as bad because kim kardasian and miley sirus do the same thing in vids and mags. No girl has said i act this way due to video games. So deal with the supposed girl idols first than beating on games which is both easy and pointless.

 

[Silence]

snip

snip

Read this and argue with a better understanding of the subject:
https://medium.com/@adrianchm/women-and-video-games-f0eb7a7d75fa

 

[SquallTheBlade]

snip

snip

Read this and argue with a better understanding of the subject:
https://medium.com/@adrianchm/women-and-video-games-f0eb7a7d75fa

Read it. Now what? Should that make feel like changing something I said earlier in this thread? Because I don't even really see how that was relevant to our discussion about the amount of female characters in games.

 

[l33t.heathen]

As one of my art friends said:"Screw those whiners,artists should create whatever they want.

Man This is really what it comes down to! The bar for entry is low enough that literally ANYONE can make a game. You want a female lead. Make it. You was a gender fluid yiff half dragon half manatee for a main character? You probably shouldn't but whatever man I'm just a comment online not your mother.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

what's so sick about sexual fantasies?

Not all sexual fantasies are sick. But "The only reason Mario ever did any of that mushroom enduced platforming and fight off a big fire breathing dragon was for some hot princess pussy. Period." is a little sick.

I think the balance is already pretty nice. Looking at my collection of games, both physical and digital, I can play as female in 61% of them. Those games either have the option to play as female or they are female only. Hell, I can even name a bunch of games that have female protagonist or female only protagonist that I still don't own but I'm planning to buy.

My point is that I think people are over dramatic with this issue. You can definitely build up a collection of games with many female protagonists if you only wish to do so.

Sure, in my collection 87% can be played as male so numbers are somewhat towards those but it's not so bad in my opinion.

Small edit: I didn't count games like platformers or puzzle games where gender is non-existent or doesn't really matter.

By my calculations, that's 13% female only, 39% male only, and 48% gender optional. Three times as many of your games are male only as female only. That doesn't strike you as odd at all?

Seems like a result of personal preference, as he said. That static game easily reverse for someone else's collection, mine for instances, where the majority is leaning towards female.

 

[Silence]

snip

snip

Read this and argue with a better understanding of the subject:
https://medium.com/@adrianchm/women-and-video-games-f0eb7a7d75fa

Read it. Now what? Should that make feel like changing something I said earlier in this thread? Because I don't even really see how that was relevant to our discussion about the amount of female characters in games.

It supports your argument.

It shows that there are many games specifically designed for women which are ignored. That means the representation is not as bad as is claimed.
But if you don't want to argue based on facts, well ¯\_(&#12484_/¯.

 

[Danny Dowling]

what's so sick about sexual fantasies?

Not all sexual fantasies are sick. But "The only reason Mario ever did any of that mushroom enduced platforming and fight off a big fire breathing dragon was for some hot princess pussy. Period." is a little sick.

Right well then if we're going to speculate how deep his intentions were for something I already showed good reason for it not being important. then how about this:

Mario and Peach are good friends, they regularly enjoy tea together, playing card games and just generally chewing the fat. Mario works as plumber to the castle that Princess Peach lives in. When Bowser takes her, he takes it upon himself to save her.

Or how about:
Mario works as a plumber in the Mushroom Kingdom. One day, Princess Peach is taken and the Kingdom begin randomly picking citizens and forcing them to go and attempt to save the princess. After a few failures a mild mannered plumber is chosen, against all odds he succeeds and is thanks and knighted for his hardship.

Or....:
Mario and Peach are secretly in love. They care very deeply for one another but are never given the opportunity to marry because Mario is not royal. One day, Bowser takes Peach and Mario, fueled by love, takes up the challenge and rescues her.

Or...:
Mario is a plumber looking to get a leg over. Peach is taken and Mario saves her. on the way home he plans to get her drunk and have his way, but in the end he didn't need to Peach was all over him in the moment.

And my last one:
Miyamoto has said before that the characters in the Mario world are seen by him as actors in a play or a film. That's why one day Mario is kicking Bowsers ass, the next they've fusing go karts or playing a board game together. In the situation of these senarios where Mario saves Peach, it is just a story that has a standard story idea that suits and has been used for hundreds if not thousands of years. it's been used by the greatest playwrights and the greatest novelists of history, and now it's used by Mario.

^
All but the last I made up as I typed (yes I know, I'm very talented), now please, if anyone here honestly thinks there's a bone to pick with the innocent formula of classic Mario games then I'm going to have to ask you to shave your beard, take off that fedora, get out of Starbucks, get a pair of jeans long enough to cover your ankles, stop wearing loafers and stop being such a hipster twat. Because no one like it, and no one thinks you're cool. Peace.

[quick note; the above paragraph is not aimed at any member of the forum and should not be taken as a direct insult, it therefore is not something you need to flag, thanks]

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Can I just make everyone aware of the fact that a blue hedgehog has been saving his home from industrialisation from a tyrant ball shaped flamboyantly evil genius for 20+ years and never actually needed a female to save

Sonic's female counterpart Amy Rose was introduced as a damsel in distress in Sonic the Hedgehog CD. "The story of Sonic CD follows Sonic the Hedgehog as he utilizes time travel to save Amy Rose and Little Planet from Doctor Eggman and Metal Sonic". Sonic also has to save her in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Lost World. Sonic switches damsels in Sonic '06, where he has to save Elise - several times.

Sonic's save-the-damsel shtick hasn't been as exclusive as, say, Mario's routine of saving Peach. But it's there alright.

Oh, see I've played through Sonic CD a few times and I didn't even realise that was the point.

Furthermore, can we all grow up and stop using Mario as a point? You know no one really cares that much about Peach in those games yeah?

Your personal motivation with Mario doesn't preclude the fact that Mario's own motivation (and Luigi's for that matter) is to save Princess Peach andrestorethestatusquooftheworld. Who really should be Queen Peach, since I don't see anybody else using the throne (there's a Mushroom King of questionable canonicity in the early comics, but I don't recall him ever cropping up in the games).

Also, if Peach (or Sonic's damsels) are so token and replaceable as you put it, doesn't that just underline their own lack of substance as characters and the fact that they only exist to enable the male heroes' quest?

See, you're missing the point; mate, it's a game, the point is to play the levels and enjoy the challenge.

Couldn't you say that about any game just to downplay an argument? "It's a game, just play it and enjoy it"?

We've officially hit argument for arguments sake. this is pointless. Someone may as well mention Hitler and the Nazi's and be done with it.

You just did it yourself.

 

[Danny Dowling]

Couldn't you say that about any game just to downplay an argument? "It's a game, just play it and enjoy it"?

This is just another question without substance you're offering with no point to it. If you're just going to do that go somewhere else, there's little substance enough in threads like this without your pointless comments. And I use the term pointless in a literal sense; you've quoted me twice with counter questions that have no point to them.

 

[viscomica]

Couldn't you say that about any game just to downplay an argument? "It's a game, just play it and enjoy it"?

This is just another question without substance you're offering with no point to it. If you're just going to do that go somewhere else, there's little substance enough in threads like this without your pointless comments. And I use the term pointless in a literal sense; you've quoted me twice with counter questions that have no point to them.

I said good day sir. I said good day!

Seriously though, yes, discrimination in gaming exists, but like someone above already commented, it's a generalised thing, not just in games.
Next topic, please.

 

[Scow2]

Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.

The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.

How are they real? Yes the photo shop adverts arnt as they air brush all negatives issues. With others, they are real woman but still using them for a reason and thus girls grow up thinking thats normal. I was working with the police and they say young girl that send naked photos of themselves via phones dont see that as bad because kim kardasian and miley sirus do the same thing in vids and mags. No girl has said i act this way due to video games. So deal with the supposed girl idols first than beating on games which is both easy and pointless.

They're real because it's an actual woman posing for those (Even if they touch her figure up later - though I'm pretty damn sure she consents to that sort of thing). You're talking about choices women make with their lives. The game industry's problem is that it's full of not-real women.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.

The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.

How are they real? Yes the photo shop adverts arnt as they air brush all negatives issues. With others, they are real woman but still using them for a reason and thus girls grow up thinking thats normal. I was working with the police and they say young girl that send naked photos of themselves via phones dont see that as bad because kim kardasian and miley sirus do the same thing in vids and mags. No girl has said i act this way due to video games. So deal with the supposed girl idols first than beating on games which is both easy and pointless.

They're real because it's an actual woman posing for those (Even if they touch her figure up later - though I'm pretty damn sure she consents to that sort of thing). You're talking about choices women make with their lives. The game industry's problem is that it's full of not-real women.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how a heavily fictitious medium full of fictional women is a problem.

 

[Bellvedere]

I think OPs argument is a perfect demonstration of why there are discussions about diversity and descrimination.

The point is that sterotypes exist in the media because that is what is most believable.

Really? Sure it's not "it is believable because these are the most commonly seen sterotypes in media"? Maybe people choose to dicuss this, not because they are women and "playing the victim", but because they want to highlight the distinction between 'believable' and 'familiar'.

Why does the woman always have to play the victim? Why does it all fall down to the big strong man to come save her from the dragon?

Why do we assume that a short, fat, generic plumber is more capable than the princess? Just because he's a dude and she's a chick? This point comes after establishing that there's some pretty kick-ass ladies in gaming, who are also babes. Clearly we have no problem "believing" a lady can just take care of her self no different to if she was 'Marcus Fenix'.

In-fact in addition to her damsel roles, Princess Peach features as a playable character in some Mario games and has her own spin off titles, so we know that she's not perpetually helpless. That means that we should find any situation where generally capable person needs help to be "believable". In which case we should have no problem playing a game in which we rescue a big tough dude without losing any respect for him or finding it "unbelievable".

Then there's implicit assumption that apparently there's not a single believable motivation to rescue someone that's not boning. That would suggest that the only thing someone (frequently a woman in games) has to offer is being beautiful. That's why it doesn't matter that she should need rescuing whereas with a man it apparently should: We don't want anything else from her. And if she's not beautiful, she's useless and there's no motivation to do anything. That's where the call for different body shapes comes in. Also should be highlighted, that the presence of non-attractive women doesn't mean that there can't be any eye candy at all.