Do you believe in ghosts or the paranormal?

[AndyFromMonday]

Same goes with Bigfoot.

If you honestly consider the possibility that "Bigfoot" exists then please disregard any replies I've made to you.

They get their money's worth because their money is making them feel better. If they believe that they have the problem again then that's their own damn fault and they really should do something about that.

It's their own damn fault? So it's their fault they got scammed? Do you see absolutely no problem with your logic? You're basically saying that it's OK to scam people as long as they feel better and that if the problem persists then it's their own problem EVEN THOUGH every single alternative "healer" claims to cure the problem, not postpone its short term effects. It is also potentially dangerous as these symptoms, headaches, joint pain etc that the healer claims to cure can be symptoms of a much more serious disorder and when people feel better they rarely consider going to a qualified physician because they "feel better".

If the sugar pills actually do cure the cancer then I don't see any problem with it, though I would suggest that they make their prices more reasonable. A placebo that satisfies the problem isn't really a placebo anymore, it's a faith-based cure.

No, it's a placebo. A placebo is always a placebo because all it does is "cure" short term symptoms of psychologically induced illnesses. Unfortunately, that placebo does not cure the actual problem which can be serious and even life threatening at times so in the end the person spends money to postpone actual treatment.

Sure, you could tell people that the cure is their own will, but who would believe that? If people want to pay for a cure that they can duplicate themselves then let them. Stupidity is no crime (though sometimes it really should be)

Well, no one. That's the point, not to believe. Like I've said above placebos postpone the actual treatment. Also, there's a big fucking difference between stupidity and being tricked into believing bullshit and if you actually condone what those idiotic "faith healers" are doing then you're a bad person, period.

Sure, you could tell people that the cure is their own will, but who would believe that? If people want to pay for a cure that they can duplicate themselves then let them. Stupidity is no crime (though sometimes it really should be)

 

[Beliyal]

I'm actually very good at reading tarot cards. I've predicted people being fired from jobs, getting into car accidents, break-ups, and unexpected romances.

Hello fellow tarot reader! I have a knack for the same thing actually, and I took up tarot reading only to see what's it about. Eventually, after getting used to it, I turned out to be really good at it and effectively "guessed" things I didn't know about people and read things that made absolutely no sense to me, but did to the person I was reading to (especially when one friend asked me something vague and I started reading and the cards kept being connected with something about love; knowing that friend and his stance on love affairs, I asked him as joke, if it had anything to do with love, and he confirmed and was so amazed that he told me the entire story that matched my reading up to every little detail. That friend is a science guy type, by the way, but it still amazed him and I was glad that he found it interesting and helpful). Also, I do this when a friend asks me and not for money, naturally.

I'm still a sceptic though. I can't say that I believe in the paranormal or ghosts, because I don't. Somehow, a part of me doesn't even believe in tarot; I firmly believe that I am just very good at reading people's emotions and behaviour. However, another part of me knows that sometimes there is no possibility that I "read" someone's emotions because either questions were vague or the person didn't open up at all. Still, I'm a sceptic and I always tell people that whatever I read from tarot is not set in stone and that I'm doing that mostly for fun and not to give people real advice; it's up to them to do whatever they want with what I tell them. What makes me happy about it is that people are always thankful and that it helps them, in a way, to get over something bad or to be happy about something good that maybe awaits them. And as long as people know that what I tell them is something they should take with more than a few grains of salt, but it helps them somehow, I'm glad that I helped them. I do the same with astrology. Those two are kinda my hobbies and I enjoy doing it, but I never used it seriously. A few times, friends asked me to tell them if they'll pass the exam or something, and I either refused or told them that whatever I read, I expect them not to take it as truth. Last thing I'd like to hear is that they didn't go to an exam because tarot told them that they might not pass. That's the line I don't want to cross.

About ghosts and other paranormal stuff; I didn't really had some real experience, besides many uncanny "premonitions" that I regularly either said, wrote or drew. Was it really a premonition? I don't know, and as fabulous it would to be able to predict the future, I don't fool myself with believing I can actually do it; most can be explained as coincidences, and while it might end up being a bit too much for a set of coincidences, it's still perfectly possible. Other "weird" things that may be classified as paranormal was when I was once woken up by very quiet music that seemed to be coming from nowhere; not from my apartment, not from anyone else's from the building and seemingly, not from anywhere, but there it was. I was fully awake and was listening to it until I fell asleep again. Paranormal? I don't really believe so because it can easily be explained as coming from someone's apartment and I just had an impression it's not coming from any real source; maybe I wasn't even fully awake as I believe I was. Another thing is one of my dreams where I'm absolutely positive that the my cat that died long ago, visited me. Ridiculous on many levels and I probably just manifested it all (after all, it was in a dream), but it felt extremely real and calmed me down in some weird way and after that, I never felt so sad about my cat again. Was it real? I doubt it. Did it help? It did, and I think that's all that matters. If someone is calmed down and able to continue with his or her life after talking to a psychic, why would that be seen as a fraud or a work of a con artist? If that's what someone needs to get over a tragic event, then just let that person have it. Some people get over things like that by taking pills or by listening to music. Some need to visit a psychic. There certainly are mean people that make a living by ripping off gullible people, especially stereotypical old ladies and uneducated people, but that happens everywhere. If people do it because it helps them, even if it's only a placebo effect, then that's fine by me. Some people believe that prayer helps them, and after all, maybe it does help them, because they really believe that it does. That is completely their choice and I don't mind, as long as they are not extreme in their beliefs and refuse to seek some other, professional, help if their methods are not working, in case of psychological or physical pain (and especially when forcing it on others).

 

[Aqua Trenoble]

Now let's deal with "spirit healing". You're saying that people "miss" potential evidence, which makes absolutely no sense because there's no such thing as "potential" evidence for something. "Potential" evidence is not used to prove absolutely anything since potential evidence can be attributed to things that do not deal with what the evidence is supposed to prove.

So, you're advocating "alternative treatments", specifically the "healing" practiced by your mother. If you belief there is evidence that can be attributed to that then please show it. In fact, I think I asked you this during the first few comments towards you but for some reason we derailed.

Bottom line, what evidence is there for alternative "healing" that has not been addressed and debunked?

Why did you put miss in quotes? I never wrote that word. I never even went near that word. People aren't missing things, they're deliberately trying to ignore or disprove them. I don't believe I wrote spirit healing or alternative treatments either, but that's beside the point.

I'm calling it potential evidence because it's apparently completely fine to dismiss valid evidence by nullifying the credibility of the source. Until I can prove otherwise or you see how preposterous that logic is, I will continue to call it potential evidence, even if it damages my argument.

We derailed because my evidence is only potential. Until the sources of the testimonials are proven infallible, said testimonials mean nothing. You began digging at that and then everything went to hell.

Bottom line, there is no evidence. I said that previously in this thread, on page one or two. Nothing I say or do will prove or disprove that my mom is genuine. So what do we do now?

 

[Gamer_152]

Nope, not at all. I believe people have had what they perceived to be paranormal encounters, but while the paranormal can do almost nothing to explain these encounters, psychology has given us proven, logical, thorough explanations of the reality of these encounters. If you're interested in paranormal psychology I must recommend Paranormality by Richard Wiseman.

 

[Aqua Trenoble]

Except that's only the placebo-effect.
And $ 200 for a phonecall is a really, really expensive placebo. Expensive to the point where it's just robbing people of their money. That's why she's a con artist. She sells something that doesn't exist, and probably harms people in the process.

Sooo placebos always do nothing and don't even exist? That's quite an assumption you're making there, hope you can prove it.

I agree that it is a placebo. But it's a placebo that works, and that's just as good as the genuine article. Sometimes even better! A drug dealer that just sells harmless placebos isn't a con artist. He's a hero! He's satisfying his clients' needs without causing them the harm that effectual drugs would.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Why did you put miss in quotes? I never wrote that word. I never even went near that word. People aren't missing things, they're deliberately trying to ignore or disprove them. I don't believe I wrote spirit healing or alternative treatments either, but that's beside the point.

Fine, let's go with ignore then like it makes any difference. Oh and you didn't but they're the most common forms of bullshit. In fact, your mother is a "spirit healer" is she not?

'm calling it potential evidence because it's apparently completely fine to dismiss valid evidence by nullifying the credibility of the source.

The source is important in the sense that you don't have to go through testing the evidence if the source has no idea what it's talking about. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean the evidence can't be valid. The thing is up until now there has been no valid evidence.

I will continue to call it potential evidence

There's no such thing as potential evidence.

We derailed because my evidence is only potential. Until the sources of the testimonials are proven infallible, said testimonials mean nothing. You began digging at that and then everything went to hell.

Testimonials are not evidence especially when dealing with placebos.

Nothing I say or do will prove or disprove that my mom is genuine. So what do we do now?

Well we can reasonably assume that your mother is a fraud since she has failed to provide any evidence that proves what she practices cures people of ailments. She promises one thing and delivers the exact opposite. She scams people, preying on their insecurities and problems in order to make money by selling them overglorified placebos that do absolutely nothing to solve their problems and above all it strengthens the patients belief that they should not appeal to conventional medicine.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Sooo placebos always do nothing and don't even exist? That's quite an assumption you're making there, hope you can prove it.

I agree that it is a placebo. But it's a placebo that works, and that's just as good as the genuine article. Sometimes even better! A drug dealer that just sells harmless placebos isn't a con artist. He's a hero! He's satisfying his clients' needs without causing them the harm that effectual drugs would.

Are you fucking serious or are you just trolling? Do you honestly not see any problem with your logic? A drug dealer that sells a placebo and claims it cures all sorts of ailments when it doesn't is a scammer and a fraud.


EDIT: Double post sorry.

 

[Rin Little]

I have had more experiences with the paranormal than I would care to remember. Right now I'm at the point where I just ignore every single potentially paranormal thing that happens because I just don't want to deal with it anymore. I know its still there but I'd just prefer to stick my fingers in my ear and go "Nope, nope, not there."

 

[ResonanceSD]

I'm not even kidding, if there's good, reliable money in telehealing then there must be something to it.

Gullibility comes to mind..

Obviously you didn't read a word of the previous sentence. Repeat clients. FOR 20 FUCKING YEARS. Nobody, no matter how gullible, pays 200 dollars on a regular basis for absolutely no reason. She gets referrals all the damn time. It is a legitimate buisness, dude.

Legitimate business? Penn and Teller have the same thing going on.

 

[NeoShinGundam]

I can't believe in ghosts, because it opens the door for other spiritual stuff i.e. Heaven, God, etc. As a firm atheist, I can't allow myself to believe in intangible spirits of the dead. I CAN however, believe in unearthly horrors from beyond the edge of space and time. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

 

[Deacon Cole]

I've always believed in the paranormal; I've had experiences of my own and recently a pretty big experience. I am curious as to who else believes or doesn't, why, and/or what happened that made you believe, etc?

I have also had experiences I would have called paranormal or supernatural. Since then, I have learned better. The incidences could not repeat, for one, despite how carefully I re-created the circumstances. So if nothing else, this just shows that the supernatural is unreliable. You wouldn't drive a car that was safe 20% of the time, would you?

But beyond that, there are other factors that have led me to think that these experiences were not paranormal at all. Mostly just coincidence, which does happen much more than most people think and the reason why someone would dismiss something as "it can't be just a coincidence" is due to an enormous ego. Such people have a very self-centered view of the world and thus when something happens to them, they assign meaning to it, which in the proper circumstances can mean the paranormal. So deep is their eccentricity and self-importance, that they don't even examine the possibility of coincidence.

And this is the root of all supernatural belief. A person thinks they have supernatural experiences and this makes them feel special. It's not based of facts, or evidence. Just emotion. The way they feel. Which isn't a basis for truth.

So when I thought I had supernatural experiences, I was being childishly self-centered and lying to myself.

 

[Metropocalypse]

I've read this whole thread, and I'm sick of seeing the word 'logic'. I'm not gonna state my beliefs. But the majority of the this thread is pseudo-logic, particularly on the non-believers' part. What I see is people throwing around that word knowing that what they're saying will probably be skimmed over, but sticking the word "logic" in will make their argument seem infallible.

To be honest, this is an impossible argument, hard skeptics will be hard to argue against because belief in the paranormal is more something people feel and experience. I think in that case it's real enough. The people who have experienced paranormal often end up so incredibly convinced, beyond being a little spooked, that it's hard to completely dismiss what they're saying.

While I haven't stated whether I believe in ghosts or not, I am religious, and deeply offended at the people in this thread who disregard religion, claiming it's just people who are scared of their own mortality. Yes, that comes into it, but it's not enough of an excuse to completely disregard it. And speaking as someone who did turn to religion in a time of need when I was fearing death a great deal (despite my young age) those comments really did hurt. When I'm balancing on a thin line between belief and non-belief, hearing something like that is painful, it brings back the fear I've wanted to avoid for years. Why can't we believe? Why are non-believers SO eager and determined to impose their bleak outlook on life to people who want to have a purpose?

If anything, that makes me disregard atheists more, I don't really like the idea of following in the footsteps of people who feed off inducing depression.

 

[Aqua Trenoble]

It's their own damn fault? So it's their fault they got scammed? Do you see absolutely no problem with your logic? You're basically saying that it's OK to scam people as long as they feel better and that if the problem persists then it's their own problem EVEN THOUGH every single alternative "healer" claims to cure the problem, not postpone its short term effects. It is also potentially dangerous as these symptoms, headaches, joint pain etc that the healer claims to cure can be symptoms of a much more serious disorder and when people feel better they rarely consider going to a qualified physician because they "feel better".

No, it's a placebo. A placebo is always a placebo because all it does is "cure" short term symptoms of psychologically induced illnesses. Unfortunately, that placebo does not cure the actual problem which can be serious and even life threatening at times so in the end the person spends money to postpone actual treatment.

Well, no one. That's the point, not to believe. Like I've said above placebos postpone the actual treatment. Also, there's a big fucking difference between stupidity and being tricked into believing bullshit and if you actually condone what those idiotic "faith healers" are doing then you're a bad person, period.

PLEASE NOTE THE WORDS THAT I HAVE USED. I CHOSE THEM VERY CAREFULLY AND DON'T NEED YOU TO REINTERPRET THEM OR CONJURE UP NEW ONES.

They didn't scam their clients, they cured the whole fucking thing. That is the scenario of which I am speaking and which you CANNOT disagree is completely legitimate, no matter the method. Then, the person began believing that the cure didn't work. So then it didn't work anymore and the problem returned.

CURE. The placebos which I am referring to would not simply cure short-term symptoms, but the whole shebang. The placebos WOULD cure the problem, if not by the same method as the genuine article.

Like I've said above the "placebo" would actually cure the problem and supersede the "actual treatment." They aren't being tricked if they can actually cure everything via the placebo or their own will. I don't just condone what your "idiotic 'faith healers'" do. If it works, I completely support it. And you're the bad person in that scenario, for disregarding perfectly viable options which can be available for far less money than more traditional options.

I myself was seriously ill once. My dad's girlfriend suggested (actually demanded is more accurate) that I take antibiotics. That was it for me. "Fuck this illness, I'm cured." AND I WAS. I didn't need the goddamn antibiotics. I didn't even know what the hell was wrong with me, I just concentrated every fiber of my being into being healthy again and I was. I have had no similar illness since. What do you think of that little anecdote?

 

[Jfswift]

I've always believed in the paranormal; I've had experiences of my own and recently a pretty big experience. I am curious as to who else believes or doesn't, why, and/or what happened that made you believe, etc?

sure I believe because
1. There is still many doubts whether souls exist in the science community
2. my cd player would turn on for no reason
3.once I was in the bathroom and as I went to leave the light turned off but the light didn't burnout the switch had actually moved.
4. I've seen weird things before like one time my dad came into the house I said hi he said hey then walked into the kitchen then a second later he walked in the front door again I said hi he said hey and walked towards the kitchen but then I asked him how he got from the kitchen to the front door so fast and he didn't know what I was talking about because he wasn't really there the first time I saw him. Also I saw the house from the nightmare on elm street movies in one of my dreams before I actually watched the movie.

huh.. stuff like that happens to me but on a more minor scale. I just file it off as coincidence, but it is weird. Like recently I'm driving home and thinking about when Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man makes some comment about, "Simon says" and then when I get home there's an online article on yahoo about where that phrase originated from.

 

[Rathands]

I will admit, I am fascinated by ghost stories but I tend to be rather skeptical of them - one of my favourite things to do every month is to check the paranormal section of about.com for the readers' stories and have a good laugh at nearly all of them (I know I'm a massive *****).

However, in defense of people's tales, I recently saw a programme where a collection of scientists were testing whether or not dogs were capable of responding to, and recognising, human emotion. Their data was leaning towards 'yes they can' on both accounts. Almost any dog owner could have told you that this is has always been the case but before this test went under way, anything they said would have effectively been counted as anecdotal evidence by the scientific community. Personal experiences aren't necessarily inaccurate just because scientists are skeptical about them.

 

[demolisher360]

no matter how much i dont want to believe, i do. even though i see no scientific reasons for all the sightings, experiences...etc etc