Do you know ANYONE who has actually gone from gay to straight post-puberty?

[Archedgar]

There is no "gay gene".
If god exists, he doesn't make "gay people".
There are absolutely no signs of any kind that indicate that humans can be "born" with homosexuality ingrained into them.



Sexual orientation IS a choice. Homosexuality IS a choice. I have never seen any evidence to the contrary but I've seen tons of evidence that supports "choice".

 

[Kae]

My sister went gay straight from puberty, and also a friend of mine turned out to be gay and he well liked me, though who can blame him I am a very handsome man after all, I mean even with all those scars I still look good.

 

[chiggerwood]

My mom knew a gay guy called himself (and I swear this is true) cupcake who ran to her thinking something was desperately wrong with him, because he was goosed by a woman (I don't know from where) and he really enjoyed it.

Another funny story involving dear old cupcake is the time when he paid my mom to look at my dad in the shower through the bathroom window. After taking one look he demanded his money back from my mom. Apparently the "show" wasn't as long as he hoped. My mom just said "Hey satisfaction was not guaranteed" and then she threatened to tell his boyfriend about his indiscretion if he told my dad what my mom did. He got his revenge by pressing his ass against our door's window when my mom came to answer his knock.

 

[The Almighty Grigard]

No, I don't know anyone that fits that description. I do however know three guys who were sure they were straight before/during puberty and then instead turned out to be gay/bi after puberty.

Take what you want from that.

 

[BlueMage]

There is no "gay gene".
If god exists, he doesn't make "gay people".
There are absolutely no signs of any kind that indicate that humans can be "born" with homosexuality ingrained into them.



Sexual orientation IS a choice. Homosexuality IS a choice. I have never seen any evidence to the contrary but I've seen tons of evidence that supports "choice".

And without any evidence, the debate is over! All hail Archedgit!

 

[funguy2121]

The issue here is not biological, for the most part, it is psychological.

And I know of a man who spent his early teens and adulthood as a gay man and shortly before 30 declared himself straight. He is currently married and has 2 children.

No, he didn't turn to religion or anything. He simply decided he would be happier a straight person, and stopped seeing men.

Did he really stop? Only he would know. But he's been steady with women for some time now. No angst, no internal dilemma. Simply his personal decision of changing his sexual outlook.

Do whatever makes you happy and fuck everyone else.

Are you saying we should all be bisexual?

*trollface.jpg*

He gave that to you. He said, here, have at it.

Are you trying to take away my satisfaction from the joke?

You HAD a sense of humor. Somewhere in there you lost it

Yeah, having it sound like somebody just had a go at my joke for being too obvious and thus not funny tends to do that. Please think about what you say before you post.

I obviously did. If you're really sensitive about your jokes than you're never going to make it. And if you think the fact that he just gave you that wide open window doesn't make it funnier at this point then I really do have to question your sense of humor. Your avatar is a cartoon pony. Embrace the ridiculousness, my friend.

 

[TokenRupee]

Well, one would have to assume it happens, considering the opposite has been known to happen.

I don't think people go from staright to gay, but instead repress their sexuality for their early life and embrace it later on.

But then you'd have to assume that the opposite sometimes happens. A guy/girl could think of themselves as a homosexual during their early years/teen years, hit adulthood, and then realize they were straight all along or decide to be straight. Or maybe a homosexual becomes bi-curious, finds that s/he likes the opposite sex more, and turns straight or mostly straight.

It's not implausible, but I haven't heard of it except for this one religious group that turned some people straight again. And those people seemed happy and didn't appear to have any problem. Usually it's the other way around with people wondering if they're gay/going gay later in life.

 

[Azuaron]

snip

Take it up with a major psychological association, not with me. I don't have a problem with it not being genetic...

Then why did you say (belligerently, multiple times):

Education and hormones have no effect on a person's sexuality. If you're born gay, you will always be gay and I cannot stress this enough.

...and...

Your sexuality is set even before birth. You can't change that.

...and where you specifically mention genetics...

Your sexuality cannot be changed. This isn't a psychological thing where if you motivate yourself you'll eventually be able to achieve anything, this is a genetic thing.

? Further, your implication that "psychological things" are something that you can just "motivate yourself" out of is insulting to everyone with: depression, bipolar disorder, a personality disorder, an anxiety disorder, schizophrenia, and any of a thousand other "psychological things" that require extensive treatment, both chemical and behavioral, to even become tolerable.

...but I do have a problem with it being considered a choice. According to every single psychiatric association in the world, homosexuality is not a choice. If you believe you've got the knowledge to counter their claim then do so. Not with me that is, with a member of those associations.

I never said it was a choice. I said it was not purely genetic and was a result of genetic, hormonal, environmental, and social influences that are not fully understood. Claims were made that weren't backed by facts, and I was refuting those claims, nothing else.

(Extensive musing below)

As far as I'm concerned, trying to change someone's physiological sexual responses from gay to straight (or vice-versa) would require severe conditioning that would break several international treaties (not to mention local laws) and have no guarantee of working (and, in fact, is more likely to make someone physiologically nonsexual because of the trauma; think A Clockwork Orange level of conditioning [level, not method; their method would be useless]). And that's just physiological responses, which don't strictly determine a person's overarching sexuality.

That being said, I do think it's dangerous to apply strict categories to sexuality (gay, straight, bi). Sexuality is more of a spectrum (really heterosexual, fairly heterosexual, somewhat heterosexual, heterosexual but questioning, heterosexual but open, bisexual but prefers heterosexual, etc. etc. etc.). So, while someone who's really gay would probably have a hard time pretending to be straight, someone who's gay but open could probably do it without much internal struggle. Pretending could even lead them to, over time, move along the spectrum toward heterosexuality. Or it could lead them to reject heterosexuality and become more homosexual. Once again, the processes are so complex that it's impossible to predict for any given person or situation.

We can say, however, that neural structures do change over time (depending on all those factors I mentioned before) and continue to change (if more slowly) after puberty. This doesn't have any more to do with "choice" than "choosing" to become schizophrenic (once again, just an example), but change does happen.

I've also been unable to find anything in regards to synaptic brain growth and its effects on sexuality.

As far as I know, there hasn't been any specific research connecting the two; I was mostly drawing a parallel between how memory/cognitive structures develop and sexuality. That being said, there hasn't been any specific research because there's not any point in it; sexuality develops years after the growth/pruning cycles end, so they don't have anything to measure during the cycles (which, incidentally, was my point).

(Mostly off-topic) Language, on the other hand, has been extensively studied, because there are certain cutoff points to learning a language. If you learn an additional language (or multiple languages) before you are 8, you can become perfectly bi-(tri-, whatever)-lingual. If you learn after 8 but before 13, you'll become mostly bilingual, but you won't be able to process the language(s) as well. After 13, and you'll never be perfectly bilingual. This is a matter of young children's brains having a lot of neuroplasticity that is lost around the beginning of puberty. Alternatively, a three year old can be perfectly fluent in a language then completely lose it in only a year or two if s/he stops speaking it.

 

[DannyHale09]

Yeah, my best friend used to be gay and a few weeks ago he started seeing a girl.
So yeah, it does happen.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I know guys who have gone from being bisexual in their teens to straight, but not actually gay to straight. They were actually bisexual, not just playing the role, they had done the deed with guys and girls, it wasn't a façade. I guess after puberty they just stopped liking guys, which I think seems plausible, knowing how bizarre that all is during puberty for some people.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

Didn't Little Richard go from Gay to Straight?

He wishes.

OT: No, I can't I say I've encountered anyone like that, though to be honest that sort of thing just sounds like people claiming to be one or other but in actuality being bisexual.

 

[Hoplon]

The brain's structure changes to an extent throughout it's lifetime. Now im not a neuroscientist, but neuroplasticy can and does occur; see Maguire.et al and the remapping of the homunculus (brain map) to adapt to physical changes. What's to say their brain changed once they adopted the gay lifestyle, moreover surely if they became heterosexual the brain may change again?

My problem with that is that it starts to solidify around puberty, not under go radical change. For radical change to happen post puberty there usually has to be a traumatic change, most often seen with amputees or huge brain injury, to force the brain to adapt.

What you're suggesting is rather like a teenager going from being an English speaker to a French speaker spontaneously thanks to going though puberty.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Further, your implication that "psychological things" are something that you can just "motivate yourself" out of is insulting to everyone

Those are psychiatric disorders, not psychological ones. I am very much aware of them, hell I suffer from one myself so I'm fairly sure I know how debilitating those illnesses can be.

I never said it was a choice. I said it was not purely genetic and was a result of genetic, hormonal, environmental, and social influences that are not fully understood. Claims were made that weren't backed by facts, and I was refuting those claims, nothing else.

Then I have no problem. My claim is that homosexuality is not a choice and that's all it boils down to.

Sexuality is more of a spectrum (really heterosexual, fairly heterosexual, somewhat heterosexual, heterosexual but questioning, heterosexual but open, bisexual but prefers heterosexual, etc. etc. etc.)

That's fairly confusing. For example, what's the difference between somewhat heterosexual and heterosexual but questioning?

So, while someone who's really gay would probably have a hard time pretending to be straight, someone who's gay but open could probably do it without much internal struggle.

But then that person is not gay. In fact, if you're open about relationships but identify yourself as homosexual it is much more likely you are bisexual instead.

Then why did you say (belligerently, multiple times):

Because I was trying to make the point that homosexuality is not a choice. I might be wrong but even if the causes of homosexuality are unknown that still doesn't change the fact that every single major psychological organisation does not consider homosexuality a choice.

 

[simple64]

This thread confirms less "everyone's different lol" and more "everyone's fucked up AND opinionated"

Further, your implication that "psychological things" are something that you can just "motivate yourself" out of is insulting to everyone

Those are psychiatric disorders, not psychological ones. I am very much aware of them, hell I suffer from one myself so I'm fairly sure I know how debilitating those illnesses can be.

I never said it was a choice. I said it was not purely genetic and was a result of genetic, hormonal, environmental, and social influences that are not fully understood. Claims were made that weren't backed by facts, and I was refuting those claims, nothing else.

Then I have no problem. My claim is that homosexuality is not a choice and that's all it boils down to.

Sexuality is more of a spectrum (really heterosexual, fairly heterosexual, somewhat heterosexual, heterosexual but questioning, heterosexual but open, bisexual but prefers heterosexual, etc. etc. etc.)

That's fairly confusing. For example, what's the difference between somewhat heterosexual and heterosexual but questioning?

So, while someone who's really gay would probably have a hard time pretending to be straight, someone who's gay but open could probably do it without much internal struggle.

But then that person is not gay. In fact, if you're open about relationships but identify yourself as homosexual it is much more likely you are bisexual instead.

Then why did you say (belligerently, multiple times):

Because I was trying to make the point that homosexuality is not a choice. I might be wrong but even if the causes of homosexuality are unknown that still doesn't change the fact that every single major psychological organisation does not consider homosexuality a choice.

Then why is it not a choice? You seem to be on a crusade to tell everyone that it's not a choice at all, no matter what, that you are born with it, and can never, ever change it, as if we're trying to invalidate gay people. Someone gave you a very well written post, and yet ya tell him to tell it to other "major psychologicalists". Where are your facts so that I can compare what you are aying to what he has said?

 

[Sniper Team 4]

There's a girl at my work who was gay. Completely gay. She wanted nothing to do with boys and was always eyeballing any girl she thought was attractive.
Then, a few years later, she's suddenly dating a boy out of the blue. As far as I know, she's gone through a few boyfriends now, but no more girlfriends. She still talks about a girl occasionally, but it's mostly about men now. I haven't worked up the courage to ask her what changed her mind because I'm pretty sure that, no matter how I phrase it, she's going to get angry.
So...does that count?

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Then why is it not a choice?

Because every single major psychological association does not consider it a choice. I base my claim on their conclusion. If you want to prove sexuality can be changed then argue with those organisations, not me.

Where are your facts so that I can compare what you are aying to what he has said?

There is no research connecting synaptic brain growth to sexuality? Every single psychological association does not consider homosexuality to be a choice?