Doctor Who Series 6.7 'A Good Man Goes To War' SPOILERS

[Trivun]

Well I guess we know what the Tardis was trying to say before she went back into the tardis body.

So does that mean River is a Timelord? In which case is the River Song we know the oldest 13th regeneration? (seeing as she died in the Dr Who Library episodes with David Tennant as the Doctor.)

I don't think she was at regeneration 13 necessarily . Bearing in mind that Tennant thought he was going to die from inserting himself into the machine anyway.

Well I guess we know what the Tardis was trying to say before she went back into the tardis body.

So does that mean River is a Timelord? In which case is the River Song we know the oldest 13th regeneration? (seeing as she died in the Dr Who Library episodes with David Tennant as the Doctor.)

Regarding regenerations, the limit was from the old series, and since the events first of the Time War and second thanks to the Pandorica events (i.e. restarting the universe), not every old idea can be considered necessarily consistent with the original series. That's the main beauty of the universe reset from the Pandorica events, any plot holes or inconsistencies in the canon can be hand-waved away and literally nobody can reasonably complain anymore. So the '13 regeneration limit' rule may no longer be in effect.

That's just one possibility though, another is that being a human/Time Lord hybrid River may only have limited regenerations set at a different number to other Time Lords. In which case she could be on her first form, or her fifth, tenth, or whatever-th, by the time the events of Silence In The Library roll around.

Regarding the Tenth Doctor, by the way, he didn't think he was going to die permanently. If you focus a bit more on how he acts and what he says at the end of Tennant's tenure as the Doctor, he simply makes it clear he doesn't want to give up his time in this current form. He simply doesn't want to regenerate so soon. He knows he'll regenerate, he simply fights it until he can say goodbye in his current form to his companions, and then change to someone else. Also, there's a sense of fighting fate about it, as he tried to deny the Oods' prediction all along, and finally it gets fulfilled in the cruelest way possible, by one of his companions. Accidentally, of course, but still.

Anyway, enough rambling from me. Regarding this episode, I basically agree totally with the OP. Amazing stuff, the twist was something I'd heard speculation about already but nevertheless it hit me like a ton of rectangular building things, and I am pretty damn psyched for the second half of the series. And I'm glad to see that instead of falling into the American trap of piling up cliffhangers (Lost and Heroes, anyone?), they actually resolved quite a few things now, and still left enough to keep the next half of the series a decent mystery. Take note, USA TV networks, the BBC could teach you a lot here .

 

[Trivun]

And this could've been a great episode if there hadn't been so many ass pulls. Like the Cybermen being back without any explanation (Ten did say that the Cybermen of our universe were extinct), and being reduced to just a Macguffin to boot. The earthfolk being called up and in despite very different events being showed last season, and various other things that just reek of plot convenience. And way to turn River Song into a Mary-Sue guys, way to go.

In the end it wasn't a bad episode, but it falls short of its full potential by several leagues.

If the cybermen are extinct, maybe the cybermen shown were from before they went extinct? The Doctor could go and visit the dinosaurs if he wanted, despite them being extinct too.

He said they were extinct in the present about 4 years ago (if that made sense) and I'm assuming they are still in the present (or 20 minutes into the future, judging by The Almost people) so to find non-Cybus Cybermen, he'd have to go into the past. Why would he do that just to blow them up to make a point to people in the future?

On topic I hated it, I hate River Song and I hate that she is related to anyone as awesome as Amy. River is pretentious, annoying and a ***** to boot and now she's got up to 11 regenerations in reverse order to live through on the show. I may stop watching. Stephen Moffat may finally be the one to put me off Doctor Who.

Because a badass lady is more annoying than someone who tried to ~rape the Doctor~.

And this could've been a great episode if there hadn't been so many ass pulls. Like the Cybermen being back without any explanation (Ten did say that the Cybermen of our universe were extinct), and being reduced to just a Macguffin to boot. The earthfolk being called up and in despite very different events being showed last season, and various other things that just reek of plot convenience. And way to turn River Song into a Mary-Sue guys, way to go.

In the end it wasn't a bad episode, but it falls short of its full potential by several leagues.

One point regarding the Cybermen - I refer you to The Pandorica Opens. Specifically, the whole 'universe reboot' that had to take place then. Whether they intended it or not, the writers, and Stephen Moffat particularly, created in that the ultimate excuse to explain any and all and EVERY SINGLE 'plot hole', 'error', or inconsistency, in the entire Doctor Who franchise right from the start. Anything that appears wrong can be explained as "well, it was one thing before, but it changed when the universe was rebooted". And that includes the Cybermen. Just because they were extinct by this point during the Tenth Doctor's time, doesn't mean they're extinct now after the universe was reset.

And before you start complaining, bear in mind that as a film-maker and as a writer, I personally find this to be a great storytelling device for a canon so complicated and developed as Doctor Who. And I applaud it for being developed in the first place. Though you may disagree, and that's fine, nevertheless it does explain perfectly why the Cybermen are around now when they weren't before.

 

[WaywardHaymaker]

I loved this episode. I'm proud to say that I didn't see the whole River thing coming from three days past yesterday, because everyone here IS saying that and that means I get to join an exclusive little club. Kind of a jarring change in September though, "I will find your daughter!" to "Let's kill Hitler!"

Also, "I can produce a MAGNIFICENT amount of lactic fluid!"

 

[joemegson94]

It was beast!
BEAST!

 

[Disaster Button]

And this could've been a great episode if there hadn't been so many ass pulls. Like the Cybermen being back without any explanation (Ten did say that the Cybermen of our universe were extinct), and being reduced to just a Macguffin to boot. The earthfolk being called up and in despite very different events being showed last season, and various other things that just reek of plot convenience. And way to turn River Song into a Mary-Sue guys, way to go.

In the end it wasn't a bad episode, but it falls short of its full potential by several leagues.

If the cybermen are extinct, maybe the cybermen shown were from before they went extinct? The Doctor could go and visit the dinosaurs if he wanted, despite them being extinct too.

He said they were extinct in the present about 4 years ago (if that made sense) and I'm assuming they are still in the present (or 20 minutes into the future, judging by The Almost people) so to find non-Cybus Cybermen, he'd have to go into the past. Why would he do that just to blow them up to make a point to people in the future?

On topic I hated it, I hate River Song and I hate that she is related to anyone as awesome as Amy. River is pretentious, annoying and a ***** to boot and now she's got up to 11 regenerations in reverse order to live through on the show. I may stop watching. Stephen Moffat may finally be the one to put me off Doctor Who.

Because a badass lady is more annoying than someone who tried to ~rape the Doctor~.

And this could've been a great episode if there hadn't been so many ass pulls. Like the Cybermen being back without any explanation (Ten did say that the Cybermen of our universe were extinct), and being reduced to just a Macguffin to boot. The earthfolk being called up and in despite very different events being showed last season, and various other things that just reek of plot convenience. And way to turn River Song into a Mary-Sue guys, way to go.

In the end it wasn't a bad episode, but it falls short of its full potential by several leagues.

One point regarding the Cybermen - I refer you to The Pandorica Opens. Specifically, the whole 'universe reboot' that had to take place then. Whether they intended it or not, the writers, and Stephen Moffat particularly, created in that the ultimate excuse to explain any and all and EVERY SINGLE 'plot hole', 'error', or inconsistency, in the entire Doctor Who franchise right from the start. Anything that appears wrong can be explained as "well, it was one thing before, but it changed when the universe was rebooted". And that includes the Cybermen. Just because they were extinct by this point during the Tenth Doctor's time, doesn't mean they're extinct now after the universe was reset.

And before you start complaining, bear in mind that as a film-maker and as a writer, I personally find this to be a great storytelling device for a canon so complicated and developed as Doctor Who. And I applaud it for being developed in the first place. Though you may disagree, and that's fine, nevertheless it does explain perfectly why the Cybermen are around now when they weren't before.

I agree. It is the perfect way to explain many inconsistencies in the canon which would take a genius explorer to navigate through. I, personally, just find it hard to justify as I viewed the unviersal reboot as a reset to the time before the cracks started happening which would mean that 10's comment about extinct Cybermen still being extinct holds up. Of course that was just how I viewed it, and what do I know considering I haven't seen many universal resets. Still makes me wonder how Cybermen indiginous to our universie would have arisen considering they were destroyed in the old series, especially if the universe was only reset to the time before the cracks, but the reboot is just as good of an anti-continuity snarl as 'Timey Wimey Ball' was to unexplained plot details.

Writing this did make me wonder though, does the reboot mean that all the people of Earth now remember Dalek Invasion, The Battle of Canary Wharf, the Cyber King over past London and the Dalek's moving the Earth to the Medusa Cascade? Or was all of that stuff just erased? Because I don't think it was actually mentioned (maybe deliberately) since then. But if it was erased, then I think it alligns nicely with the idea that it can be used as a tool to dig the writers out of continuity cave ins, as well as explore new stories with things they previously couldn't by, for example, reviving the Cyberman race in our universe.

 

[Encurtidos]

Does this mean that River Song is Amy AND Rory's daughter? Then does the doctor die? He can't die!!

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

I honestly would never applaud anyone thinking up some deus ex machina that conveniently excuses them to not have to do any research regarding the lore when writing for an existing series. And yes I've dabbled in writing myself. It just is lazy, pure and simple, not a stroke of genius, a genius writer can make compelling and interesting stories within a restricted lore. Instead of bending the lore to his or her will.

And what further makes this so insulting is the fact that the Cybermen are back and that it was just glossed over, they purely existed to be a Macguffin and push the plot along.

No matter how you tart it up, pulling something out of your ass still is, well, pulling something out of your ass.

And I ~know~ Moffat can do better than this which makes it all the more upsetting.

 

[WolfThomas]

I thought Rory was going to tell the dying sontaren that he was a nurse too.

you know how in the episode it was stated that it took billions of years for time lord DNA to be created by exposure to the time vortex, has anyone else realised that the way it was said seems to state that time lords evolved from humans.

i've speculated that time lords could have been humans that traveled back to the beggining of time after first inventing time travel, but i guess this kinda adds possible evidence to that theory.

if it's already 'known' that time lords evolved from humans, then my bad for being slow =P, however thought i'd mention that incase not everyone picked up on that.

I think the original idea was that there pretty much normal humanoids before the exposure to the time rift which thanks to Omega made them Timelords. But that humans and other humanoids evolved to look like Timelords either from pseudoscience of psychic imprint from the rift or something more insidious like Rassilon having a eugenics program prior to the timelords non-intervention state.

The show has shown that exposure to time traveling does alter a person, though I can only remember an episode of Torchwood where Martha had some sort of crazy time energy thing going with her cells.

 

[TimeLord]

And this could've been a great episode if there hadn't been so many ass pulls. Like the Cybermen being back without any explanation (Ten did say that the Cybermen of our universe were extinct), and being reduced to just a Macguffin to boot. The earthfolk being called up and in despite very different events being showed last season, and various other things that just reek of plot convenience. And way to turn River Song into a Mary-Sue guys, way to go.

In the end it wasn't a bad episode, but it falls short of its full potential by several leagues.

If the cybermen are extinct, maybe the cybermen shown were from before they went extinct? The Doctor could go and visit the dinosaurs if he wanted, despite them being extinct too.

He said they were extinct in the present about 4 years ago (if that made sense) and I'm assuming they are still in the present (or 20 minutes into the future, judging by The Almost people) so to find non-Cybus Cybermen, he'd have to go into the past. Why would he do that just to blow them up to make a point to people in the future?

On topic I hated it, I hate River Song and I hate that she is related to anyone as awesome as Amy. River is pretentious, annoying and a ***** to boot and now she's got up to 11 regenerations in reverse order to live through on the show. I may stop watching. Stephen Moffat may finally be the one to put me off Doctor Who.

Because a badass lady is more annoying than someone who tried to ~rape the Doctor~.

And this could've been a great episode if there hadn't been so many ass pulls. Like the Cybermen being back without any explanation (Ten did say that the Cybermen of our universe were extinct), and being reduced to just a Macguffin to boot. The earthfolk being called up and in despite very different events being showed last season, and various other things that just reek of plot convenience. And way to turn River Song into a Mary-Sue guys, way to go.

In the end it wasn't a bad episode, but it falls short of its full potential by several leagues.

One point regarding the Cybermen - I refer you to The Pandorica Opens. Specifically, the whole 'universe reboot' that had to take place then. Whether they intended it or not, the writers, and Stephen Moffat particularly, created in that the ultimate excuse to explain any and all and EVERY SINGLE 'plot hole', 'error', or inconsistency, in the entire Doctor Who franchise right from the start. Anything that appears wrong can be explained as "well, it was one thing before, but it changed when the universe was rebooted". And that includes the Cybermen. Just because they were extinct by this point during the Tenth Doctor's time, doesn't mean they're extinct now after the universe was reset.

And before you start complaining, bear in mind that as a film-maker and as a writer, I personally find this to be a great storytelling device for a canon so complicated and developed as Doctor Who. And I applaud it for being developed in the first place. Though you may disagree, and that's fine, nevertheless it does explain perfectly why the Cybermen are around now when they weren't before.

Was it ever actually said that the Cybermen were extinct pre-Cybus?

When Amy asks the Doctor has he ever had children does that mean the Doctor's daughter (not the episode) from the original series is now non-canon?
s

The Doctor must have had children, the first Doctor's original companion was Susan his timelord granddaughter (along side two of her school teachers).

From the wiki:

The very first episode, An Unearthly Child, shows that the Doctor has a granddaughter, Susan Foreman. The 2005 series reveals that the Ninth Doctor thought he was the last surviving Time Lord, and that his home planet had been destroyed; in "The Empty Child" (2005), Constantine makes a statement that "before this war began, I was a father and a grandfather. Now I am neither;" the Doctor remarks in response, "Yeah, I know the feeling." In both "Fear Her" (2006) and "The Doctor's Daughter" (2008), he states that he had, in the past, been a father. Also in the latter, his cells are used to produce a daughter, played by Georgia Moffett, the real-life daughter of Fifth Doctor actor Peter Davison, who is subsequently named Jenny by Donna as a result of his describing her as "a generated anomaly."

Pretty clear we have been repeatedly told The Doctor has had kids, even before the clone/daughter Jenny.

I heard rumours that the granddaughter thing was retconned out because it was restrictive.

 

[varulfic]

Holy shit, this episode was unadulterated awesome from start to finish. I loved every second of this.

 

[Liudeius]

Yeah, it was kind of obvious. River "Killed a great man", clearly referring to The Doctor. Then the astronaut girl killed him and we were shown pictures of Amy holding the baby girl.

But it was kind of cool. Too bad they will probably downgrade the awesomeness if the whole thing about scaring people too much is to be followed.

Does this mean that River Song is Amy AND Rory's daughter? Then does the doctor die? He can't die!!

He already died... Didn't you watch the first ten minutes of the first episode this season where River killed him?

River is pretentious, annoying and a ***** to boot and now she's got up to 11 regenerations in reverse order to live through on the show.

I didn't know about that regeneration limit (I've only seen the 2005 shows). I hope that doesn't mean they are making River to replace The Doctor... With all the stuff about him being too frightening also, this doesn't bode well, they are clearly going to replace him. Isn't he the tenth Doctor too?

 

[spartandude]

I worked out she was the daughter a few weeks ago.

River Song
(Switch)
Song River
(Something similar to River)
Song Pond
(Something similar to Song)
Melody Pond

Tada!
Also, was it me or at the end did it say 'The Doctor will return in 'Let's Kill Hitler'?!!
WHAT.

i loved that, at then end its a really big revelation and then "Lets kill hitler", but it almost sounds as a jolly thing that a bunch of kids would do after school

 

[WolfThomas]

I didn't know about that regeneration limit (I've only seen the 2005 shows). I hope that doesn't mean they are making River to replace The Doctor... With all the stuff about him being too frightening also, this doesn't bode well, they are clearly going to replace him. Isn't he the tenth Doctor too?

They actually retconned it in interview outside of the show, which seem odd considering they then went and killed him at the start of the season. The reasoning was that prior to the death of the time-lords, there was a limited access to rift energy granted to the timelords and they were only allowed 12 regenerations from the council who had the power to grant more or remove peoples regenerations. However the doctor being the last timelord now has unlimited access to the source of the energy and no one to tell him what to do.

 

[Daveman]

tbh it was always going to be River... there's not really anyone else they could let it be without introducing a new character. I was pretty annoyed if I'm honest, this is pure appealing to mindless kids TV, with almost zero plot development.

Tv aimed at Kids being like kids TV? GOD, WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TOO?!?!?!?

Overall, fantastic episode. I'm really pissed I didn't see either plot point coming, but its nice that Moffett continued what he did in Season 1 by showing trhat not everyone things the Doctor is a nice guy.

I said mindless kids. Just because it's for kids doesn't mean it can leave all plot behind in favour of spending an AGE hyping the doctor up and another age of meaningless action. I mean I'm all for it being exciting but not in the pointless way that episode was.

 

[Crunchynut]

Well I guess we know what the Tardis was trying to say before she went back into the tardis body.

So does that mean River is a Timelord? In which case is the River Song we know the oldest 13th regeneration? (seeing as she died in the Dr Who Library episodes with David Tennant as the Doctor.)

She doesn't have to have completed her regeneration cycle, she says in the library to the doctor that sacrificing himself would burn out both his hearts and kill him permanently, thats what it did to her, she could have had up to 11 regenerations left in the library (we know she has regenerated at least once.

On topic I hated it, I hate River Song and I hate that she is related to anyone as awesome as Amy. River is pretentious, annoying and a ***** to boot and now she's got up to 11 regenerations in reverse order to live through on the show. I may stop watching. Stephen Moffat may finally be the one to put me off Doctor Who.

Her first regeneration could provide you with a more palatable personality. You never know.

 

[Cpt Corallis]

I honestly would never applaud anyone thinking up some deus ex machina that conveniently excuses them to not have to do any research regarding the lore when writing for an existing series. And yes I've dabbled in writing myself. It just is lazy, pure and simple, not a stroke of genius, a genius writer can make compelling and interesting stories within a restricted lore. Instead of bending the lore to his or her will.

And what further makes this so insulting is the fact that the Cybermen are back and that it was just glossed over, they purely existed to be a Macguffin and push the plot along.

No matter how you tart it up, pulling something out of your ass still is, well, pulling something out of your ass.

And I ~know~ Moffat can do better than this which makes it all the more upsetting.

Cybermen are confirmed to be coming back later in the series. With Cybermats to boot! The logic here was probably just something along the lines of : "We need a powerful race to show how badass Rory and The Doctor are being, we also need to prep for bringing the cybus cybermen back later in the series, we have the suits in the wardrobe, why not stick them in the episode as foreshadowing?"

 

[Trivun]

And before you start complaining, bear in mind that as a film-maker and as a writer, I personally find this to be a great storytelling device for a canon so complicated and developed as Doctor Who. And I applaud it for being developed in the first place. Though you may disagree, and that's fine, nevertheless it does explain perfectly why the Cybermen are around now when they weren't before.

Resets that do not serve a greater purpose are a lazy ass way of covering yourself for your errors, poor writing, and outright stupidity.

And normally I would agree with you. However, I think it was a good move here, and certainly a case of good writing. On the superficial level, it was a good story anyway, wrapping up an intriguing and interesting story arc. On a deeper level, the thing is we'd reached the point where the story of the Doctor had been told for forty-odd years, on TV alone (even without mentioning the big break between the old and new series). Plus all the countless books, audio dramas, radio plays, comics, annuals, spin-off shows like Torchwood and The Sarah Jane Adventures, and so many other things. The spin-off novel Lungbarrow has a massive amount of canon regarding the Time Lords alone. In all that time, various plot details and characters and so on are bound to get muddled up. So a reset is needed to ensure that the canon of the series can remain constant without any issues. So I would argue that in this case, the reset does serve a greater purpose, and is anything but lazy. The writing is pretty damn good, while also giving a valid, in-universe reason for any 'errors', and avoids the worse sin of simply coming up with an ass-pull every time there's a problem.

 

[Anachronism]

Absolutely fantastic episode. One of the best of the revamped series so far. Aside from how big and epic it was, for me, it was the little moments that made it special. Like Amy reassuring her daughter that everything will be all right... because Rory's coming for them. Beautiful.

Also: WHERE. IS. MY. WIFE? Awesome.

Lesbian Samurai Dinosaur Chick and Sexy Lesbian Katana-Maid were pretty cool characters

Silurian: Why do you tolerate me?
*long, flexible tongue*
Silurian and Maid share a meaningful look.

I'm amazed they got away with that. Unless I just have a really dirty mind.