Does TES need an overhaul of combat?

[MopBox]

To complain about the combat in an Elder Scrolls game is to complain about the genre, if you don't like it you can always go play Devil May Cry, that game exists, go play that. It's like going to the movies to see The Master and complaining about the lack of explosions.

I guess you could add more explosions to The Master if you really wanted to, but you?d be making a different type of movie.

 

[Luca72]

To complain about the combat in an Elder Scrolls game is to complain about the genre, if you don't like it you can always go play Devil May Cry, that game exists, go play that. It's like going to the movies to see The Master and complaining about the lack of explosions.

I disagree. I started replaying Skyrim with the Skyrim Redone mod, and I'm really impressed with how visceral the combat has become by tweaking just a few things. Enemies are more aggressive, attempt to flank and disrupt your attacks, and work as teams. My favorite part is that everyone (including you) seems to have lower health, while weapons are more effective. This means every fight is brutal, short, and desperate. Getting hit at all can stagger you and end up killing you, but the same applies to enemies at your level.

What I'm getting at is that there's an assumption that combat has to be boring because of the genre, and I don't think that's true. I don't expect to backflip or do multi-hit combos, but I would like combat to be more interesting.

And I'd like a dodge button. Just a little one

 

[MopBox]

To complain about the combat in an Elder Scrolls game is to complain about the genre, if you don't like it you can always go play Devil May Cry, that game exists, go play that. It's like going to the movies to see The Master and complaining about the lack of explosions.

I disagree. I started replaying Skyrim with the Skyrim Redone mod, and I'm really impressed with how visceral the combat has become by tweaking just a few things. Enemies are more aggressive, attempt to flank and disrupt your attacks, and work as teams. My favorite part is that everyone (including you) seems to have lower health, while weapons are more effective. This means every fight is brutal, short, and desperate. Getting hit at all can stagger you and end up killing you, but the same applies to enemies at your level.

What I'm getting at is that there's an assumption that combat has to be boring because of the genre, and I don't think that's true. I don't expect to backflip or do multi-hit combos, but I would like combat to be more interesting.

And I'd like a dodge button. Just a little one

There you go, on about how there weren't enough explosions.

 

[renegade7]

I want a setting that lets you toggle between a more RPG-like option, with rolls to hit, crit, cast, etc based on skills, (Like Morrowind and earlier) and a more action heavy system like Skyrim.

With varying degrees of RPGish ness between the two. Like going between Pure RPG->some action->50/50->Action with some RPG stuff -> Pure action.

 

[Luca72]

To complain about the combat in an Elder Scrolls game is to complain about the genre, if you don't like it you can always go play Devil May Cry, that game exists, go play that. It's like going to the movies to see The Master and complaining about the lack of explosions.

I disagree. I started replaying Skyrim with the Skyrim Redone mod, and I'm really impressed with how visceral the combat has become by tweaking just a few things. Enemies are more aggressive, attempt to flank and disrupt your attacks, and work as teams. My favorite part is that everyone (including you) seems to have lower health, while weapons are more effective. This means every fight is brutal, short, and desperate. Getting hit at all can stagger you and end up killing you, but the same applies to enemies at your level.

What I'm getting at is that there's an assumption that combat has to be boring because of the genre, and I don't think that's true. I don't expect to backflip or do multi-hit combos, but I would like combat to be more interesting.

And I'd like a dodge button. Just a little one

There you go, on about how there weren't enough explosions.

What? You're saying that criticizing combat in an Elder Scrolls game isn't valid because the genre doesn't lend itself to having good combat. I'm saying by making a few changes that are in no way detrimental to the game as a whole, combat has been drastically improved.

Without those changes, Skyrims' combat feels no more engaging than it did in Morrowind or Oblivion. I don't accept that combat shouldn't be improved just because it's never been good in the past. It's not like the Elder Scrolls games are a deep simulation of reality - you're going to be spending most of the game killing various things. So combat should feel like a well thought out part of gameplay, not just clicking till the guy in the middle of the screen dies.

 

[disgruntledgamer]

Yes, first person combat is acceptable, 3rd person combat is an utter joke. They said it was going to be vastly improved for Skyrim, if vastly improved means slightly better than Oblivion, than I guess they're right, but it still ranks 2ed worst 3rd person combat system ever developed.

Spells are impossible to aim as they always shoot 3 feet over where the cursor is, Range only works for the stubborn types who learn to use a broken system and melee although doable you're constantly looking at the ground and are either running passed or behind enemies.

Look to Demon Souls on how to do combat system right, 3rd person with no targeting system = fail IMO.

 

[romxxii]

I find it funny that majority of people here say TES combat is "just mashing the attack button". There's a block skill, guys. And power attacks. Which are context-sensitive to your movements. You can also shield bash. You can time your attacks and blocks.

Hell, the oft-cited Chivalry uses the exact same combat mechanics.

Yes, you can just keep swinging while downing health potions. But it's not as if the game didn't give you other options.

IMHO, fixes to the combat system should be with regards to fluidity of the attacks.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

If Oblivion combat become more like Chivalry combat I'd probably put another 150 hours into it. As it stands, it's the weakest point of the game.

(I can't speak for Skyrim, I've never played it)

While we're on this subject, the shooting in Fallout 3 absolutely fucking sucks horrendously. If the shooting in Fallout 3 became half as good as say, Half Life, or even Bioshock (trying to think of first person shooters that don't rely so heavily on the shooty part), I'd put another 50 or so hours into it for the DLC.

 

[nyarlathotepsama]

The Answer is Yes/no. TES needs some upgrades in combat but most of it works fine. The game, at its heart, really isn't about combat so much as it is a some kind of fantasy life simulation with combat in it. TES games also have one of the best modding communities out there so if you want changes to combat you can totally get them with zero trouble.

My current game has been so heavily modded sometimes I forget it is even Skyrim anymore and oddly the game seems to hold up well despite having had all the dragons modded to be both smarter and deadlier, all the guards given a total overhaul in equipment and detection ability, all the monsters have been upgraded in various ways and many, many added to spice up the flavor. All my healing items function like New Vegas on Hardcore Mode, including crippled limps and even permanent crippling possible. Combat runs a lot smoother for me when I have to worry about my arm breaking from blocking to often and when my healing items heal over time rather than all at once it is much more technical and tactical when and where to use them. Also modded to have the need to sleep, eat, drink and die from exposure so yeah, heavily modded.

If my ramble above either gets skipped or is as rantish as I believe it to be then I'll summarize; TES games are built to basically be life simulators rather than medieval combat simulators but if you want more than you get out of TES games then modding is your friend and it is easy to get the mods, safe for your system and so crazy varied you can even change the landscape/location if you so desire.

But is the vanilla combat broken? Depends on the player I guess. I never allow myself to over use broken combat elements because they bother me so I ignore them but with TES games that is basically impossible. However all the other parts of TES (and recent Fallout titles) make up for all of that for me, I'm a roleplayer/explorer at heart and the STORY in games means much more to me than the gameplay. RPGs for life you all. I think that is how one says that, but then again I haven't been up with the slangs since like 1989.

 

[Jfswift]

It was fun but a little easy. What I'd like to see is faster paced combat and rolling/ stamina use like in dark souls. Also it would be fun to add a V.A.T.S. window (for targeting with bows anyway). I'm not sure if Skyrim is configured for motion controls but that would work too for bows and spells. This is one of the few games that would work well with that goofy wii mote imho.

 

[SajuukKhar]

And Skyrim's combat -is- satisfying, but in a different way. Sure Dark Souls makes you feel skillful, which is perfectly fine, but Skyrim makes you feel powerful as you get stronger. Some people like it like that.

It doesn't really because everything levels with you in Skyrim.

You are aware that the leveling system in Skyrim throws in a mixture of enemies that are below, at, and above, your level?

You are acting like Skyrim is Oblivion, in that all enemies are maxed to your level, which they aren't. In fact, a good half of the enemies you will encounter, wont be the max level for that particular enemy type.

At level 50, in Oblivion, ALL the Falmer would be Falmer Warmongers, if Falmer had been in Oblivion. In Skyrim however, at level 50, maybe like 20-30% are Falmer warmongers, and the rest are lower leveled versions of that monster. Hell, I am level 81 and still encounter the level 10 Falmer sometimes, something that would never happen in Oblivion.

You do feel like you are getting stronger, because you get to wipe the floor with a good half of the enemies because you get a higher level then them, and then the game throws a handful of enemies at your level so its not so easy its boring.

The leveling system in Skyrim was designed specifically off of fan feedback from Oblivion in that having all enemies level to your level makes it boring, so they made a good half of the enemies you encounter below your level, and until you get to like level 40ish, the game throws enemies of a higher level at you, most monsters max out at around 40 though.

 

[endtherapture]

And Skyrim's combat -is- satisfying, but in a different way. Sure Dark Souls makes you feel skillful, which is perfectly fine, but Skyrim makes you feel powerful as you get stronger. Some people like it like that.

It doesn't really because everything levels with you in Skyrim.

You are aware that the leveling system in Skyrim throws in a mixture of enemies that are below, at, and above, your level?

You are acting like Skyrim is Oblivion, in that all enemies are maxed to your level, which they aren't. In fact, a good half of the enemies you will encounter, wont be the max level for that particular enemy type.

At level 50, in Oblivion, ALL the Falmer would be Falmer Warmongers, if Falmer had been in Oblivion. In Skyrim however, at level 50, maybe like 20-30% are Falmer warmongers, and the rest are lower leveled versions of that monster. Hell, I am level 81 and still encounter the level 10 Falmer sometimes, something that would never happen in Oblivion.

You do feel like you are getting stronger, because you get to wipe the floor with a good half of the enemies because you get a higher level then them, and then the game throws a handful of enemies at your level so its not so easy its boring.

The leveling system in Skyrim was designed specifically off of fan feedback from Oblivion in that having all enemies level to your level makes it boring, so they made a good half of the enemies you encounter below your level, and until you get to like level 40ish, the game throws enemies of a higher level at you, most monsters max out at around 40 though.

It still doesn't work very well because at high levels all I'll be fighting is high level Draugr, who are much harder than normal Draugr that I was fighting and killing at level 1. Also wolves don't level at all, they're always one hit kills. Dragons of course level with you with Elder Dragons being pretty tedious to kill. Sure there are easier enemies knocking about as you level up but they're no more difficulty than they are at level 1.

As I levelled up I felt the world becoming MORE dangerous which shouldn't make sense. My better stats, gear, perks etc. should be making the world EASIER to manage but still challenging.

Contrasting that to Dark Souls, you gain an advantage against the world. Your new weapons have a distinct advantage over old ones, and you can go back to old areas, having learned the attack patterns of the enemies and blitz through there, whilst some areas remain too hard to contest.

But of course you are SajuukKhar so you will completely ignore my anecdotal evidence, whilst presenting your own anecdotal evidence as gospel and ignoring every single valid argument against your precious and flawless TES. Pretty much.

To complain about the combat in an Elder Scrolls game is to complain about the genre, if you don't like it you can always go play Devil May Cry, that game exists, go play that. It's like going to the movies to see The Master and complaining about the lack of explosions.

I guess you could add more explosions to The Master if you really wanted to, but you?d be making a different type of movie.

If the combat is crap why put it in? You don't see Civilisation sticking in a half arsed Total War-style battle simulator.

 

[Zeriah]

Oh man I think I'd just keep playing TES forever if they released a game with a good combat system. A Dark Souls style combat system would be a dream come true for me. Realistically though, it would have to be far more forgiving with multiple difficulty settings (more in line with The Witcher 2's system) to work in TES. That games like Ocarina of Time have a far superior melee combat system, despite being released so long ago is pretty sad. With the right difficulty settings you could even make the game behave similarly to how it is now for people that want to just relax and explore, while still providing an interesting combat experience for those that desire it.

Combat is in my opinion TES's biggest flaw, it is incredibly boring and even stealth and archery become completely brainless after leveling them up a bit.

The games are all still amazing and I've played around 200 hours of Skyrim despite this but if the combat was interesting, I'd doubt you'd ever need to play another game ever again.

 

[Spearmaster]

Frankly, combat in TES is crap, no disputing it. It's mechanically broken, and incredibly boring to boot. You just wail on your enemies to die whilst tabbing out to drink healing potions occasionally. There are a ton of exploits you can use completely accidentally without minmaxing and there's not any spacial awareness or positioning at all. There's also very little difference between various weapons. It's probably my least favourite part of the games.

Having started Dark Souls recently, I've realised how much more fun, rewarding and in depth the combat is. Every weapon feels completely different and there are a variety of moves you can do. Spacial positioning is incredibly important as is verticality and knowing when to dodge and when to parry. It's a lot more fun and rewarding than TES combat.

Now I'm not saying to make TES combat like Dark Souls, incredibly unforgiving and brutal, but do you think it should be more like Dark Souls, rewarding positioning, learning the moveset of your weapon, and the patterns of attack of your enemies and generally making it better than just wailing on your enemies?

Would you like to see the system changed/improved or would it ruin the franchise?

For me I'd love to see it changed, the combat isn't the thing that makes the games unique, it's the exploration that's the key to the series.

PS: Dungeons are crap in TES, they should have them much more non-linear, unique and complex like in older games like Baldur's Gate...thoughts?

I like to think that TES games are balanced meaning that combat, story, dungeoning, questing and exploring are equal partners in the game. If they try to bolster one another will fall short because every game made has a limit to how much they can put in it. Making combat more complicated may take away from some of the other unique aspects of the game. Calling TES combat crap and mechanically broken is just false and makes me question how many different types of combat you've actually tried, there are plenty of combat options most of the people that complain are the people that never never use them.

PS: Dungeons in TES are not crap either they vary from dungeon to dungeon and I'm not sure on a number but there a lot of them and again if you made them more elaborate there would be fewer of them, Baldurs Gate is a poor example to give because everything in that game is scripted and I don't remember many dungeons at all being less linear that in TES.

 

[tangoprime]

It was fun but a little easy. What I'd like to see is faster paced combat and rolling/ stamina use like in dark souls. Also it would be fun to add a V.A.T.S. window (for targeting with bows anyway). I'm not sure if Skyrim is configured for motion controls but that would work too for bows and spells. This is one of the few games that would work well with that goofy wii mote imho.

Honestly, I don't have too much of a problem with combat other than ranged mage stuff is kind of a crapshoot, love the archery though. I would LOVE to see something akin to V.A.T.S. and was really hoping to see in in Skyrim after we'd had it in FO3 and NV, especially for giving a more cinematic melee experience rather than feeling like an upclose and brutal bash-trading contest (which, I'm fine with btw, love using the shields in Skyrim). How cool would it be to close distance, switch to something like VATS, select a bunch of attacks at different body parts with melee weapons, then watch the fight play out at full speed from a nice camera angle? Or target a bunch of distant targets and queue up different, complimenting magicka attacks on different targets? I'd love to have seen that in Skyrim.

 

[SextusMaximus]

Frankly, combat in TES is crap, no disputing it.

Wrong.

I love the Elder Scrolls combat.

 

[SajuukKhar]

It still doesn't work very well because at high levels all I'll be fighting is high level Draugr, who are much harder than normal Draugr that I was fighting and killing at level 1. Also wolves don't level at all, they're always one hit kills. Dragons of course level with you with Elder Dragons being pretty tedious to kill. Sure there are easier enemies knocking about as you level up but they're no more difficulty than they are at level 1.

As I levelled up I felt the world becoming MORE dangerous which shouldn't make sense. My better stats, gear, perks etc. should be making the world EASIER to manage but still challenging.

I am sorry but that is wrong. At high levels you WILL NOT be only facing higher level Draugr, that is a simple fact, provable by anyone who actually has played the game, or understands the games leveling system.

At levels 30-81, only about 20-30% of the Draugr you encounter are the level 30 Draugr Deathlords, which is the highest level type of Draugr in the game, with the exception of the rare level 60 Dragon Priest boss only monsters, the other 70% of the Draugr are the lower level 1-21 Draugr, such as the normal, restless, wight, and scourge Draugr, which are significantly easier then Deathlords, and due the fact you have leveled up, gotten better gear, and gotten more perks, means they go down even faster then when you first met them, so you get to see how leveling up made your character more badass.

As for dragons, they work on the exact same system, while at level 81 you will encounter Ancient, or Legendary if you have Dawnguard, Dragons frequently, you will ALSO, encounter every other level of Dragon going back to even the most basic named "Dragon". You will not be only facing the higher level dragons, and indeed, the new Dragons that do appear as you level, are only as hard as the basic dragons were when you first met them.

Contrasting that to Dark Souls, you gain an advantage against the world. Your new weapons have a distinct advantage over old ones, and you can go back to old areas, having learned the attack patterns of the enemies and blitz through there, whilst some areas remain too hard to contest.

Considering that dungeons in Skyrim become level locked the first time you enter them, and will not level enemies to your current level if you go back, the same applies to Elder Scrolls as well.

If you go back to Bleak Falls Barrow, or Embershard mine, or any dungeons you originally visited at a low level, those places that only had the mast basic Draugr, or bandits, will NOT level up to your current level, so all there will be is the most basic bandits and Draugr there, even if you are level 81.

On top of that many dungeons in the game have a minimum level, meaning if you go into a dungeon at level 10, and the dungeons minimum is level 20, you will still be facing level 20 enemies even at level 10, so there ARE many areas in the game that you CANNOT go into because you will be vastly underleveled compared to the enemies there.

And the many perks, hp/magicka/stamina, smithing/enchanting upgrades, new weapons/armor, you get will give you a considerable advantage over the enemies you once found difficult.

But of course you are SajuukKhar so you will completely ignore my anecdotal evidence, whilst presenting your own anecdotal evidence as gospel and ignoring every single valid argument against your precious and flawless TES. Pretty much.

That was an entirely unnecessary attack.

I never once portrayed TES as being perfect
-It's buggy
-Hitting shit with anything but power attacks feel weak
-There is a lot of over used environments in the dungeons.
-The plot in-game kinda sucks

Just to name a few.

 

[RobfromtheGulag]

<a href=http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/21570457.jpg>If you came into a TES/Fallout game for the combat...

I would much rather see them devote resources to improved facial action mapping, as Yahtzee always harps on, larger worlds, and polished products [read: less bugs].

 

[ScrabbitRabbit]

I don't think it's mechanically that terrible, it just needs minor tweaks, but there definitely needs to be more OOMPH to the animations and sounds as it often feels like you're swinging through the air at the moment.. If the combat was a bit weightier, it'd be great. It'd be nice to get parry-and-riposte mechanics in there, too.

All in all, I didn't think the combat in Skyrim was too bad, honestly. I prefer the combat in Dark Souls, but I don't think that system would work in the Elder Scrolls.

 

[deadish]

So ... Is it? ... Is it safe? It is safe to criticise TES now without getting ripped a new one by Skyrim fanboys?

I have only play Morrowind. I realised there wasn't much of a game too be honest, so never bought the rest since according to reviews they are more of the same.

All the "systems" kind of sucked. Combat stunk. Whack at something and hope it dies before you. There isn't much of combat system at all. This more or less extends to other parts of the game, like crafting. There is no system, just stack mats together and you get a new item that does what it component mats did.

It appears they just threw everything they could think of, and the kitchen sink, into the game without giving a damn about "balance" or how it plays. This is the reverse of how normal games mechanics are designed where you build a basic system and slowly add variety to it while throwing out elements that don't work or are redundant. Less is more.

I never understood the hype behind the series.