Does TES need an overhaul of combat?

[peruvianskys]

I've been playing Chivalry: Medieval Warfare and I gotta say, it has convinced me that first person melee can be incredibly tense and exciting. If you're wondering how you can properly pull it off, I encourage you to try it. It functions on a three-pronged system of slash, stab, and overhead swing, each with their own weight and feel, which adds not only variety but strategic depth. The most important part, however, is the fact that blocking only resists attack for maybe two seconds, so you actually have to time your blocks instead of just holding the right mouse button and walking backwards.

 

[Hagi]

I wouldn't argue that the Elder Scrolls needs to be a purely third-person experience. I think the exploration aspect works perfectly fine in first-person. I personally just think that anytime the main character draws a sword, the gameplay would be much better served by withdrawing into a proper, competently handled third-person perspective. Kind of like how Metroid Prime jumped from first-person to third-person whenever Samus went into her Ball mode.

Not only would it make combat less of a chore, but I truly think it would allow for better role-playing options as well. If you want to play as a Tank-esque brawler, then you can still equip your greatsword and go in swinging. But if you're a more rogue-esque/thief character, then third-person would allow developers to include moves that cater more towards that fragile build, athletic of character class. Things like body rolls, jumping off walls, sliding out of danger... a system like that would be much better for players who like to roll faster, lighter characters like thieves and acrobats, as well as still allowing for heavier builds like knights, paladins and such.

Even better, it would mean that each melee weapon could be given its own distinct feel and gameplay style. As it currently stands, all melee weapons in the Elder Scrolls games work pretty much the same. Equip them, then mash on the right trigger to use them. There may be a token +10 stat here or there, but for the most part, gameplay is identical. When you look at how games like Ninja Gaiden or Dark Souls handle different weapon types, however, you see how much gameplay can change simply by choosing a different weapon.

In Ninja Gaiden, for instance, if you choose the Flail, you're choosing a weapon that is incredibly fast, can create insane combos, but has buggerall defensive qualities, and can create holes in your attacks that enemies can exploit. You get the heavier weapons like the Hammer or the Dabilahro, which are much, much slower, but balance that by causing huge damage. And you have things like the Katana, which offers a mix between speed, offense and defense.

What's even better is that not only are the weapons balanced differently, but the combos are completely different. A combo using the Katana, for instance, is completely different from a combo using the Flail, or the Hammer. This reinforces the idea that each weapon is different from each other, that each weapon is unique in how it plays. This is something that I really think RPGs like Skyrim need to take on board. Hammers shouldn't just have different stats to greatswords, they should feel completely different to play with. This is something a third-person combat engine can offer, with its emphasis on combo-gameplay, as opposed to the wailing-on-the-triggers slashy slashy approach the Elder Scrolls games currently employ.

You raise good points, when talking purely from a gameplay perspective the series probably would be better served with third person combat.

I do however think that immersion, another thing the Elders Scrolls is known for, would suffer. There's a difference between seeing an arrow, blade or big ass dragon coming right at the centre of your screen or coming at a character at the centre of your screen.

If you design it as you suggest then you would be forced to disable a first person combat perspective, such a perspective simply wouldn't work with a combat system that was entirely based on a third person view.

And there's already plenty of games offer third person sword & sorcery action combat. What there's a lot less of is offering that exact same in first person.

I'd say the series would be much better served by distinguishing itself and holding on to the advantages of first person by coming up with a combat system that works for that perspective instead of copying other games and invariably ending up with a combat system that's a poor imitation since, unlike other games, it will never be the sole focus of an Elder Scrolls game.

 

[Something Amyss]

I would say they should overhaul the combat system, but that would imply there was a system.

 

[Naeras]

Considering the combat in TES is pretty horrible, yes. I would very much appreciate better combat in those games.

 

[teh_Canape]

well, for one, yeah it could be better
but on the other hand, how would you even improve it, given how the game works?
I'm thinking maybe make the melee part work like Maken X, but then you have bow/arrow and then magic and then that too would need some overhaul and bim boom bibbidy-BAM
but hey, at least they no longer have offscreen dice-rolling like Morrowind

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I don't think copy-pasting Dark Souls combat into TES would be a good idea, but Bethesda could probably benefit from a crash course at the FROMsoft school of how to make relevant combat mechanics.

I will point out that most people find the combat in Skyrim improves drastically when they turn up the difficulty so you can't get away with simple mashing anymore. I always point that out. But I don't deny it has limitations even then.

 

[endtherapture]

You're just realizing it's shit now ?

Being such a combat focused game, they really should concentrate on making a good combat system, you would think. Their RPG mechanics are weak and shallow anyway, so scale back on them more (if need be) and make a fun action/adventure type game with good combat, more enemy variety and some magic, instead of a 'rpg' that tries to do alot of things, but doesn't do anything particularity well. (besides exploration) But even the exploration falls flat when it just leads to boring encounters/bad combat/crap loot system.

TES tries to do everything and spreads itself too thin.

It's trying to do combat, exploration, RPG elements, multiple races, wide open world, guilds, magic, lore, monsters etc. but just ends up skimping on everything and only really suceeding in a giant open world.

Other games focus on story and characters and do that very well (eg. Dragon Age Origins) whilst Dark Souls focuses on combat and monsters.

TES needs to spread itself less thin. Like cut all the food and stuff out of the game. Who cares about the food in the game?

Most definitely. I like my games to have strengths. Not a jack of all trades/master of none. But that's just Bethesda trying to appeal to everybody so they could sell shitloads of copies.

I am so disappointed at the Hearthfire DLC and how they focus on crap like cooking, adoption, marriage etc.

I play TES to dick around in a fantasy world, not to manage a household and do boring crap like in the Sims.

 

[evilneko]

Melee combat in TES needs fixing.

Magic's ok in Skyrim. Sucked in Oblivion.

Your kidding right? Their was few improvement for magic like necromancy, but the spells selection is severely lacking. For PC it is an easy fix with mods, but god help you if your on console.

Nope.

It's more fun in Skryim than in Oblivion. That constitutes improvement. Dramatic improvement, given how much it sucked in Oblivion.

 

[lacktheknack]

Considering how I play Elder Scrolls as if properly melee is a "last resort", I personally love it the way it is.

Maybe I'm just the only person who plays them while actively dodging attacks, strafing behind, etc. Still not enthralling, but I don't have any complaints.

That said, Daggerfall's combat was certainly interesting, if not coherent. It mixed the Morrowind random-chance-hits with panicked-mouse-flailing, and I thought it worked.

 

[Roofstone]

I am fine with it, but I really want a dodge button/combo. Just a tiny movement from me to make my character quickly and easily jump to the side. Preferably without changing where I am viewing(meaning that the camera moves to point at what I was pointing at before the dodge).

That'd be nice.

 

[lacktheknack]

You're just realizing it's shit now ?

Being such a combat focused game, they really should concentrate on making a good combat system, you would think. Their RPG mechanics are weak and shallow anyway, so scale back on them more (if need be) and make a fun action/adventure type game with good combat, more enemy variety and some magic, instead of a 'rpg' that tries to do alot of things, but doesn't do anything particularity well. (besides exploration) But even the exploration falls flat when it just leads to boring encounters/bad combat/crap loot system.

TES tries to do everything and spreads itself too thin.

It's trying to do combat, exploration, RPG elements, multiple races, wide open world, guilds, magic, lore, monsters etc. but just ends up skimping on everything and only really suceeding in a giant open world.

Other games focus on story and characters and do that very well (eg. Dragon Age Origins) whilst Dark Souls focuses on combat and monsters.

TES needs to spread itself less thin. Like cut all the food and stuff out of the game. Who cares about the food in the game?

Most definitely. I like my games to have strengths. Not a jack of all trades/master of none. But that's just Bethesda trying to appeal to everybody so they could sell shitloads of copies.

I am so disappointed at the Hearthfire DLC and how they focus on crap like cooking, adoption, marriage etc.

I play TES to dick around in a fantasy world, not to manage a household and do boring crap like in the Sims.

The thing is, we play TES for different reasons. I play it to combine a "second life" with dragon murder. Who cares about all the little extras? I do.

 

[croc3629]

I think a simple fix to the potion problem would be to add a sort of cooldown for your potions, so that you can only drink one at a time.

Also, they should be heal over time potions, no instant heals, which should be limited to the restoration tree at a high cost, or maybe high level alchemy.

You should also be able to spec into different weapon specializations from vanilla without having to rely on mods for that type of diversity. I want my playstyle to really change depending on whether I'm wielding a sword or an axe or a mace, or even a different kind of sword compared to a standard longsword, or wielding a single sword in one hand only. There should be perks to support these specializations in the game, to better define your character.

Also, some form of more proactive mobility besides just running around. Dodges that consume stamina for agile characters to use, so that they can flank an enemy and get an extra damage attack for attacking from the side, or from behind if they can get around the enemy.

Heavy armor users should feel like tanks, light armor users should feel like agile little monkeys bouncing around the battlefield if they so choose (or sneaky shadows, but the game kinda supports that option more at least). Whatever algorithm Bethesda used to calculate armor damage needs to be overhauled. In the vanilla game, heavy armor is pretty much worthless at high level play.

And give the damn thu'um it's own damn skill tree, like the werewolves and vampires, seperated completely from levelling.

I love the game, but some of it's flaws do get on my nerves. But until the next Fallout game comes out, it's the best thing I've got in this genre.

Oh, and bring back the attribute system, but not as it was in the older games. That system kind of sucked. Not easy to change, maybe, but scrapping it altogether took something from the game.

This mod is the closest thing to what I have in mind for my ideal Elder Scrolls game, but even then it only does so much, because even modders have lives to live:

T3nd0s Skyrim Redone

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/9286

 

[Norrdicus]

I think a simple fix to the potion problem would be to add a sort of cooldown for your potions, so that you can only drink one at a time.

Witcher (1 mostly, 2 had this, but simplified) had this cool "Toxicity" system, where potions, depending on their strength, would add toxicity and if your toxicity went above a certain level, drinking a potion would remove a good chunk of your health, or even kill you. Toxicity would drain over time, sleeping would hasten the process and there were potions for the purpose of removing Toxicity, although these potions also removed any active potion effects on use.

So the system would allow for some extremely powerful potion combinations, but then you'd not be able to drink another one without risks for a long time

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

The game may seem totally unrelated, but I can't help but think of the Condemned games. It's in first person, and the melee combat as well as the swinging of axes and other objects felt great and was totally immersive.

Enemies responded to a hit like it was a truly painful, staggering blow, and the swing/connection felt like it had real impact. The only negative I can think of is that not being able to see behind you and on the flanks was something that actually helped with the tone and atmosphere of that game, and maybe not so much in a fantasy setting, although TES uses it. TES could benefit from making it feel more like you were really swinging a giant axe, however.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

The fact that the game is often hailed as the best example of melee combat in first-person only cements my belief that first-person is absolutely terrible for melee.

How do you feel about the melee combat in Condemned 2: Bloodshot?

 

[Spectrum_Prez]

If better combat means ditching First Person View, then no.

First Person View is a core part of the experience, and if you take it away, it might as well be something else entirely.

To be honest, I don't mind combat as it is right now. Nothing too fancy, it makes sense and isn't totally broken. I don't understand the mashing buttons critique... I'm playing a full-melee character right now and mashing buttons gets me killed super quickly, especially at low levels. Actually blocking and sidestepping attacks is absolutely necessary.