Does TES need an overhaul of combat?

[Jynthor]

I don't mind TES combat so I don't care either way, but I wouldn't mind seeing combat in the vein of Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, it was interactive, tense, you could use the environment. In pretty much every way it was better. I also really hate having to bash a health sponge for ages, the combat should be fast and lethal for both parties involved.

 

[Hagi]

I think you underestimate the first person perspective. It may not be a huge factor in your own immersion but there is without doubt a significant number of people for whom it is.

Just look at The Elder Scrolls Online, a very commonly requested feature is a fully functional first person camera. At times even cited as deal breaker and the feature to make it stand out and break the mould.

First person melee combat can be a great exhilarating experience in my opinion. Take Dark Messiah of Might and Magic for example. With kicks, knockbacks, impalements, charges, blocks all done in first person that game's combat really was something special and the game would have lost a lot of what made it special had it been in third person.

I think this video shows it off pretty well:

That's the sort of combat I'd like to see in the Elder Scrolls. Much more active. Much more tactical. Much more visceral. But still first person.

 

[alphamalet]

Yes, it needs it badly. The combat system is absolutely terrible (which is why I don't think Skyrim comes colse to being a "good game").

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

Witcher (1 mostly, 2 had this, but simplified) had this cool "Toxicity" system
...

the system would allow for some extremely powerful potion combinations, but then you'd not be able to drink another one without risks for a long time

Meh, you got enough ingredients to brew an endless supply of white honey, so toxicity was never really an issue. As long as you keep yourself stocked up on Blizzard, Wolf, White Honey and the healing one (and since you could farm an infinite amount of ingredients this isn't hard to do) you could win pretty much every fight with ease by buffing up before and healing afterwards.

I also really hate having to bash a health sponge for ages, the combat should be fast and lethal for both parties involved.

This is what I really hate about the TES series. I don't really mind single-button combat systems (especially with satisfying slow motion kills thrown in), but whaling on someone over and over again just to watch the little health bar slowly deplete is SO underwhelming.

The perspective doesn't matter to me much with melee combat, but the enemies should either die quickly (Dishonoured, Assassin's Creed) or you should be able to juggle them (Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden).

 

[Leonardo Huizar]

I miss Unarmed and was really hoping it was in Skyrim. You never have to keep so many weapons, and there are martial arts techniques in pop culture than do more than "punch em to submission"

There was Poisen Palm in Iron Monkey
Stun Palm in Fallout 3 & NV
Violent internal/external destruction in Fist Of The Northstar
Iron skin in most kungfu movies
Resist Elemental and status changes without armor
Rapid hand strikes such as Dr. La Tourette http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQpadGaAmx0
and just wearing down the other guy and making him vulnerable for fatal moves, or just fleeing the fight. You know like getting experience for showing mercy and compassion. Thats the real fantasy: Compassion for a random enemy in a RPG

You know what i would like in the next FALLOUT or TES? The option to not kill. Yeah, theyre imaginary dirtbag murderers, but id like to be about kicking ass and not taking lives.

I guess im just weird like that

 

[lord.jeff]

Melee combat in TES needs fixing.

Magic's ok in Skyrim. Sucked in Oblivion.

Your kidding right? Their was few improvement for magic like necromancy, but the spells selection is severely lacking. For PC it is an easy fix with mods, but god help you if your on console.

Oblivion technically had more spells then Skyrim but the good majority of the spells in Oblivion are the exact same spell as your starter spell but with a higher attack modifier, Skyrim your higher level spells felt new not just an upgrade to earlier spells.

I'd agree that Elder Scrolls has a terrible combat system but I'd rather have then put work into speechcraft and NPC interactions, combats a filler for that game, learning and being part of that world is it's core. After that they should work on sneak before combat.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I will point out that most people find the combat in Skyrim improves drastically when they turn up the difficulty so you can't get away with simple mashing anymore. I always point that out. But I don't deny it has limitations even then.

Turning up the difficulty doesn't improve the combat in any interesting ways, as it just gives the enemies a HP bloat/gives you fewer HP. VERY lazy way of implementing different difficulty levels.

You are partially correct, but what improves is that the resources the game makes available to the player become more attractive. People start using shouts, they start taking advantage of spacing, they use potions for more than just chugging heals, they bring scrolls along, they use strong attacks/bashing more, etc. Most people just play on Adept and then complain because all they do is stand there and mash attack. All I'm saying is that situation can usually be improved.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

Not played the game myself, but I've seen videos before.

I'll admit, the combat seems to work in the context of the game's setting. However, there are a few things that really turn me off-

Firstly, the reliance on quick time events to finish enemies off. This happened in Skyrim as well. The problem with first-person is that it only works as long as the character is standing straight up, centre forwards against the enemy. From what I've seen in Skyrim, and the video of Condemned, finishing moves nearly always require control being taken away from the player in order for the action to take place. If you need to pull the camera away from the player in order for the character to do a spinning sword attack, or a QTE to stamp on an enemy's face, then to me that just suggests that the camera you're using isn't that conducive towards the experience in the first place.

I agree. But not all kills in Condemned 2 require QTE finishing moves to be performed.

And the first Condemned actually had (well, in my opinion) a better QTE finishing system. When you beat up an enemy enough, they fall to their knees and four options pop up for a finishing move. However it wasn't compulsory, you could still wail on someone without ever having it pop up and when it did you didn't need to press the buttons to kill them that way, you could ignore it and just smack them again to kill them. Basically it was opportunistic and it never punished you for not using it, you just didn't get a cool animation of Ethan headbutting/headslamming/necksnapping/facepunching them.


(The stuttering isn't from the game, it's the recording.)

Secondly, there still seems to be the problem of the developer trying to make combat happen in straight lines in order to suit the perspective. Most of your weapon swings still only happen partially on-screen. Combat seems to consist of two characters running straight towards/away from each other in a neat straight line that is easy for the camera to follow.

I think the system works in Condemned because the game is trying to convey a confined, claustrophobic atmosphere. In that regard, the intrinsic confinement of first-person combat can aid the mood.

Skyrim is not Condemned, however. In a game where you're fighting groups of bandits, platoons of soldiers, and everything from mammoths to giants, you don't want the combat to feel confined. If you're taking on small armies, then as a player, you need to have spatial awareness and fast responsiveness in order to compete on a level playing field.

Yeah in that sense it is limited. But I didn't necessarily say what works for Condemned works for Skyrim, I just thought it was a better candidate for "best example of melee combat in first-person" than Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.

 

[WanderingFool]

I think you underestimate the first person perspective. It may not be a huge factor in your own immersion but there is without doubt a significant number of people for whom it is.

Just look at The Elder Scrolls Online, a very commonly requested feature is a fully functional first person camera. At times even cited as deal breaker and the feature to make it stand out and break the mould.

First person melee combat can be a great exhilarating experience in my opinion. Take Dark Messiah of Might and Magic for example. With kicks, knockbacks, impalements, charges, blocks all done in first person that game's combat really was something special and the game would have lost a lot of what made it special had it been in third person.

I think this video shows it off pretty well:

That's the sort of combat I'd like to see in the Elder Scrolls. Much more active. Much more tactical. Much more visceral. But still first person.

Now... is there a Skyrim mod that puts that in game? Cause I dont think I can ever play Skyrim again after watching that... that was awesome.

*Edit*

Also, this is just FPS's in general, but we really need more visible dude than just a pair of arms holding the gun.

 

[Norrdicus]

Meh, you got enough ingredients to brew an endless supply of white honey, so toxicity was never really an issue. As long as you keep yourself stocked up on Blizzard, Wolf, White Honey and the healing one (and since you could farm an infinite amount of ingredients this isn't hard to do) you could win pretty much every fight with ease by buffing up before and healing afterwards.

True, the system is not perfect given enough resources, but it is an improvement to the (imho) endless tankiness your Skyrim/Oblivion character has during any single moment thanks to health potions.

Plus, given that Elder Scrolls dungeon are nigh endless enemy gauntlets where you commonly fight far more than in Witcher, then when is this "afterwards"? You'll surely run out of White Honey quickly if you heal up after every single confrontation

 

[spartan231490]

i like TES combat. I wish more games would do combat like TES

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

Meh, you got enough ingredients to brew an endless supply of white honey, so toxicity was never really an issue. As long as you keep yourself stocked up on Blizzard, Wolf, White Honey and the healing one (and since you could farm an infinite amount of ingredients this isn't hard to do) you could win pretty much every fight with ease by buffing up before and healing afterwards.

True, the system is not perfect given enough resources, but it is an improvement to the (imho) endless tankiness your Skyrim/Oblivion character has during any single moment thanks to health potions.

Plus, given that Elder Scrolls dungeon are nigh endless enemy gauntlets where you commonly fight far more than in Witcher, then when is this "afterwards"? You'll surely run out of White Honey quickly if you heal up after every single confrontation

Well, on the other hand, it would suck to be at the end boss of a long dungeon and be at 90% toxicity with low health and no white honey (or ingredients to make more), and be forced to backtrack all the way out and to the nearest town to rest and buy more potions.

The toxicity mechanic was little more than an annoyance in the Witcher which didn't really serve a meaningful purpose. If you plan ahead, it doesn't stop you from happily spamming potions, and if you don't plan ahead it'd make things a giant hassle.

I'm sure there's better ways to solve the potion-guzzling issue. Like, your character can only metabolise 3 effects at a time, or something (upgraded with endurance-based perks). So after 3 heals, you have to wait one in-game hour before you can drink another.

 

[Jaeke]

The third person view for combat is a good idea. TES already has an option for 3rd person view, so fix that clunky thing and make a good combat system.

Alternative: make combat more like the combat found in DMOM&M. Then you can keep first person always and the game won't suck.

DMOM&M? What is that and how does the combat work?

Dark Messiah: Heroes of Might & Magic.

It's basicly the same thing except you can kick people into spikes which are somehow in every building in the world but appearently it means it's better than TES combat.

OT: Seriously...

This "TES COMBAT IS SHITE" is rediculous.

Batman: Arkham Asylum/City does the same but with the X and Y button but it's called "masterful" because they make it look pretty.

Combat is combat is combat, and is combat. It's not pretty or smooth and that's the point. They've made it abundantly clear that the combat is reflective the harsh brutality of the landscape.

If you are spamming potions then either go level up or lower the difficulty, which people don't have a problem with Batman because in all honesty that game's combat is easy as hell.

 

[croc3629]

I think you underestimate the first person perspective. It may not be a huge factor in your own immersion but there is without doubt a significant number of people for whom it is.

Just look at The Elder Scrolls Online, a very commonly requested feature is a fully functional first person camera. At times even cited as deal breaker and the feature to make it stand out and break the mould.

First person melee combat can be a great exhilarating experience in my opinion. Take Dark Messiah of Might and Magic for example. With kicks, knockbacks, impalements, charges, blocks all done in first person that game's combat really was something special and the game would have lost a lot of what made it special had it been in third person.

I think this video shows it off pretty well:

That's the sort of combat I'd like to see in the Elder Scrolls. Much more active. Much more tactical. Much more visceral. But still first person.

Now... is there a Skyrim mod that puts that in game? Cause I dont think I can ever play Skyrim again after watching that... that was awesome.

*Edit*

Also, this is just FPS's in general, but we really need more visible dude than just a pair of arms holding the gun.

And that game came out in 2006? Damn it! I thought the industry thrived on stealing the ideas of others and making them better (or at least trying to). Bethesda even took all that time to overhaul their engine too.

If Skyrim's combat was even close to something like that, then all I'd ask for afterwards is that the Speechcraft tree not be so useless. At least a quest line to tell the Blades to shove it where the sun don't shine? Or extending the quest to slay the Dark Brotherhood beyond it's miserable length?

I think a simple fix to the potion problem would be to add a sort of cooldown for your potions, so that you can only drink one at a time.

Witcher (1 mostly, 2 had this, but simplified) had this cool "Toxicity" system, where potions, depending on their strength, would add toxicity and if your toxicity went above a certain level, drinking a potion would remove a good chunk of your health, or even kill you. Toxicity would drain over time, sleeping would hasten the process and there were potions for the purpose of removing Toxicity, although these potions also removed any active potion effects on use.

So the system would allow for some extremely powerful potion combinations, but then you'd not be able to drink another one without risks for a long time

Such a system would certainly make the alchemy tree more attractive to lessen the effects, although I think for the Elder Scrolls a simple 30 second (or whatever was appropriate) penalty barring you from drinking another potion would suffice, both in and out of combat so that being ambushed by an assassin could actually be something to worry about.

I miss Unarmed and was really hoping it was in Skyrim. You never have to keep so many weapons, and there are martial arts techniques in pop culture than do more than "punch em to submission"

There was Poisen Palm in Iron Monkey
Stun Palm in Fallout 3 & NV
Violent internal/external destruction in Fist Of The Northstar
Iron skin in most kungfu movies
Resist Elemental and status changes without armor
Rapid hand strikes such as Dr. La Tourette http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQpadGaAmx0
and just wearing down the other guy and making him vulnerable for fatal moves, or just fleeing the fight. You know like getting experience for showing mercy and compassion. Thats the real fantasy: Compassion for a random enemy in a RPG

You know what i would like in the next FALLOUT or TES? The option to not kill. Yeah, theyre imaginary dirtbag murderers, but id like to be about kicking ass and not taking lives.

I guess im just weird like that

Not weird at all. When bandits said that they surrendered after I decimated them on my warrior, I was always a bit annoyed that I had no choice but to kill them or run very far away, because they always tried to kill me again a few seconds later, without fail.

And hand to hand combat is just cool, no matter how many Daedric weapons the game throws your way. It never should have been removed. Just give us Daedric fist weapons if you have to.

 

[Zakarath]

I swing my sword at things and then they die. Works for me.
+1 to those who say that the way you can't spare enemies who surrender is stupid, though. Especially if I'm playing some good, honorable hero, I shouldn't be forced into killing enemies who are bloodied, crawling, and pleading for their lives just because they'll attack me again immediately if I show them mercy.

Hm, shouldn't be too hard to mod. Just add an interaction option to enemies in that state that would move them into an player ally faction. That might cause their former compatriots to attack them, but that kinda makes sense, too...

 

[charge52]

The third person view for combat is a good idea. TES already has an option for 3rd person view, so fix that clunky thing and make a good combat system.

Alternative: make combat more like the combat found in DMOM&M. Then you can keep first person always and the game won't suck.

DMOM&M? What is that and how does the combat work?

Dark Messiah: Heroes of Might & Magic.

It's basicly the same thing except you can kick people into spikes which are somehow in every building in the world but appearently it means it's better than TES combat.

OT: Seriously...

This "TES COMBAT IS SHITE" is rediculous.

Batman: Arkham Asylum/City does the same but with the X and Y button but it's called "masterful" because they make it look pretty.

Combat is combat is combat, and is combat. It's not pretty or smooth and that's the point. They've made it abundantly clear that the combat is reflective the harsh brutality of the landscape.

If you are spamming potions then either go level up or lower the difficulty, which people don't have a problem with Batman because in all honesty that game's combat is easy as hell.

You really think the only difference between Dark Messiah combat and TeS combat is the fact that you can kick people? Perhaps it is time you watched some Dark Messiah gameplay on youtube, because there are way more than that.

Also same to your comparison to the Arkham games, because I know that it's an opinion, but in this instance, your opinion is just wrong.