Don't wear the American Flag on your shirt in California schools, you might offend the Mexicans.

[justcallmeslow]

yeah they may have been doing it for an asshole reason, but if mexicans can wear the mexican flag on the fourth of july here, then i dont see why we need to bother respecting a holiday that isn't even our own. cause no one else respect our holidays thats for damn sure.

I think Mexicans can get away with the inverse because they're surrounded by American culture. They're not giving a big "screw you" to American people, they're reminding themselves of their own culture. They're not setting out specifically to antagonise.

And the whole damn world respects your holidays. Hallowe'en, Valentine's Day and all that commercial bullshit was popularised by America in their current forms. 4th of July is a lot more famous worldwide than Cinco De Mayo.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

I find this a bit ridiculous, as far as how the school and the judged (and possibly the parents) handled the situation. Cinco de Mayo is a Mexican holiday, but that does not mean that it should infringe the rights of others for fear of being offensive. Even if these students did wear these t-shirts to inflammatory and even if they went so far as to be d***s about how they are superior to Mexicans, it's still freedom of speech and quite frankly, there will even be Americans who will not even appreciate or properly celebrate their own national holidays (Fourth of July, Thanksgiving, Veteran's Day, etc.).

Like I've said before, these people need to grow up and learn that in America, you share the cultures, religions, nationalities, and beliefs of other people. Rather than being prideful for you heritage, you want to assure that it remains sacred and indestructible to the freedoms of others.

Just show your pride and f*** the noise.

 

[justcallmeslow]

agreed, in england (HOME turf! ) we cant ask for black coffees or sing ba ba black sheep, a song as old as the hills.....

not asking for black coffees has never been a thing and the ba ba black sheep was a lie if i remember correctly. At best, it was 1 stupid person who said that and the entire country said they were stupid. If you're going to talk about us being too concerned with political correctness, actually use decent stories.

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

agreed, in england (HOME turf! ) we cant ask for black coffees or sing ba ba black sheep, a song as old as the hills.....

not asking for black coffees has never been a thing and the ba ba black sheep was a lie if i remember correctly. At best, it was 1 stupid person who said that and the entire country said they were stupid. If you're going to talk about us being too concerned with political correctness, actually use decent stories.

im not talking about "you" being to concerned about political correctness, and the ba-ba black sheep wasnt a lie, my younger brother was told of and we got a letter home when he asked for it to be sang...and when i said" we cant ask for black coffees" i meant it is frowned upon to say that, and your meant to say coffee without milk.... back on topic, i can understand the concern, but it is a bit OTT in my opinion.

 

[Dastardly]

While I disagree, you do make valid points and I can see your argument. Unfortunately the article does not say whether "tensions were building" and it does not convey whether or not the students wore the shirts in a "Lets show those Mexican's" versus a patriotic purpose, versus a "You can celebrate Cinco de Mayo based on where you are from, but don't forget where you are".

I can see where the confusion lies. The original stories made it clear -- there was yelling, swearing, threats, it was getting heated on both sides.

But even then, why is there a need for "Don't forget where you are?" It's not the place of these children to "remind" these other children of something obvious to them. We don't tell people on July 4th to "remember, it's not the 1700's anymore," or "Remember, we're not at war with England now." Doing so sends only one clear message: "We think you are incorrect for celebrating this, and we are attempting to correct you."

The school, at this point, is stepping in and saying, "You don't need to come here to correct other people, you need to come here to learn." They are also saying, "We do not need you here intentionally trying to cause problems." Because kids are often of the mistaken belief that 'making the other side angry' is the same as 'making a difference,' when really it's just 'making trouble.'

The school doesn't have the time or resources to turn this into a "let's teach racial/cultural sensitivity" lesson, and it's clear that (with the parents empowering the lawsuit) they wouldn't been able to even do that without a fight. Both sides wanted to win, not compromise, so the school had to make the call: "Fine. Fight it out somewhere else, because we don't have the time or money for this. And we don't want to get sued."

I believe you have the right to say what you will, but you do not have the right to not be offended. No authority figure is obligated to make sure your feelings don't get hurt, or people don't crash your party. This is the real world. We shouldn't deny anyone experience in dealing with it.

It's not a "make sure they're feelings don't get hurt" thing. For the school, it's a "make sure these kids don't start fights with each other, because we'll all be in court getting sued and/or fired over it if they do." The school was protecting itself from the stupidity of the antagonizers (and the other immature kids that responded to them).

 

[dark-mortality]

I am sorry, but... I actually face-palmed at two things here. The first is obviously that the kids had to turn the shirts. The second is that... I am sorry, but they sued the school for THAT?!?!?! I will never, and I mean NEVER, understand America.

 

[Jegsimmons]

yeah they may have been doing it for an asshole reason, but if mexicans can wear the mexican flag on the fourth of july here, then i dont see why we need to bother respecting a holiday that isn't even our own. cause no one else respect our holidays thats for damn sure.

I think Mexicans can get away with the inverse because they're surrounded by American culture. They're not giving a big "screw you" to American people, they're reminding themselves of their own culture. They're not setting out specifically to antagonise.

And the whole damn world respects your holidays. Hallowe'en, Valentine's Day and all that commercial bullshit was popularised by America in their current forms. 4th of July is a lot more famous worldwide than Cinco De Mayo.

valentines days and halloween are not american, halloween started in ireland and both have religious origins.
yeah it may be FAMOUS, but i dont think anyone else celebrates it.

 

[Gloomsta]

Even though this happened on May 5th of this year, CNN just ran the article now, likely due to the legal proceedings taking so long.

A group of white students wearing T-Shirts bearing the American flag were asked to turn their shirts inside out due to the possibility it could have been inflammatory to the Mexican students at the school on Cinco de Mayo.

The students and their families sued the school on the grounds that their freedom of speech had been infringed and the Judge in Northern California sided with the school.


How do you feel about this?

Im my personal opinion, I believe that when wearing your nation's flag on your own soil becomes "inflammatory" and unacceptable, the problem is not with the students or the t-shirts or the flag, it is with the Judge and the schools. The thought that someone can immigrate from another country and have a holiday from that country (which in the case of Cinco de Mayo, the Mexicans in Mexico don't even really celebrate like we do in the U.S.) be grounds for their host country having to hide their flag, we have a problem on many levels. If I were to go to Great Britain and demand that the British flag be covered because it might offend me on the 4th of July, it would cause an uproar.


The article in question can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/18/opinion/navarrette-t-shirt-controversy/

This is why nationalism is retarded and people should not define themselfs as part of a nation.

This world belongs to every human, a country is only a concept that is in the mind.

So fuck those who get offended by the flag, but also fuck nationalist pride.

 

[Gloomsta]

My Dad (being an Ex soldier) is a very patriotic man, because of this we brought him a flag pole, the Union flag, and a host of other British military flags for his birthday, naturally he loved them, he proudly displays the Union flag, most of the neighbors love it (he's always been a very eccentric guy)

Now recently a Polish family moved in at the end of our road, they took imediete offense to the flag, they called the local council and complained, two days later we had a note from the council ordering us to take it down, My dad replied with a letter stating that it was on our property and complied with all existing building regulations, he also explained that he didn't mean anything by having the flag up, and it had been up for a few months before this new family had arrived. We later received another letter telling us to either take it down or go to court, My Dad chose court.

Thankfully the jury agreed with my dad, and our flagpole still stands proud in the front garden, the day after we got back from court my dad put up a polish flag just to annoy them, we still get complaint letters through the letterbox about it.

Proper on topic now: It's ridiculous, if the Mexican students had been genuinely offended then it would have been understandable..annoying but understandable, but they were not, it's just someone who things minority's need molly coddeling

Should not have flags up at all. Nationalism doesnt make sence.

 

[Sandytimeman]

How do you feel about this?

I side with the school, because I understand how decisions like this are made.

Wearing the flag is not inflammatory per se. But wearing the flag specifically to be jerks to another group? That's different. The students weren't trying to show patriotric pride. They were mocking, taunting, or otherwise going after the patriotic pride of others.

Now, is it possible the kids doing the whole Mexican flag thing were also just trying to stir up trouble? Sure. It's possible the whole episode was one big, "I dare ya to say something!" The problem is, if that was the case, that the "USA" group took the dare.

We want to turn it into something about the flag, but it's not. It's about one group of kids trying to goad another group of kids into an altercation. They were using the flag, not honoring it.

The school's decision had nothing to do with the flag. It had to do with the fact that a group of kids were trying to pick a fight with another group of kids, and trying to hide that behind the technicality of "it's just a flag." The school wisely saw through the ruse and said, "No, you're trying to stir the shit. We'll have none of it."

Why? Because if even the slightest bit of violence had occurred between those kids:

1. Someone would have played up any injuries and made a big deal.
2. Someone would claim the school should have "seen it coming," so they're at fault.
3. Someone would contact the ACLU to get lawyers involved.
4. Everyone would sue the school, rather than each other, because the school is more likely to have money.

If two kids were trying to turn your yard into a battleground, you would remove them so that you don't get sued when they hurt each other.

/END THREAD

right here :3 I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[justcallmeslow]

yeah they may have been doing it for an asshole reason, but if mexicans can wear the mexican flag on the fourth of july here, then i dont see why we need to bother respecting a holiday that isn't even our own. cause no one else respect our holidays thats for damn sure.

I think Mexicans can get away with the inverse because they're surrounded by American culture. They're not giving a big "screw you" to American people, they're reminding themselves of their own culture. They're not setting out specifically to antagonise.

And the whole damn world respects your holidays. Hallowe'en, Valentine's Day and all that commercial bullshit was popularised by America in their current forms. 4th of July is a lot more famous worldwide than Cinco De Mayo.

valentines days and halloween are not american, halloween started in ireland and both have religious origins.
yeah it may be FAMOUS, but i dont think anyone else celebrates it.

I never said they were American, i said they were popularised in their currnt forms by America. Which is true.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

hahahahaha what the hell...

honestly?

this is so fucking stupid, on so many levels.

first off, it is america, wearing/supporting your own flag is now inflammatory?

and shit, if i had a nickel for everytime a mexican was wearing some sort of flag symbol on their apparel..i'd have had free school lunch for life. but did anyone give a flying fuck? of course not! this applies:


honestly, from both sides of it, it is stupid beyond belief, especially the schools side, fuck your anti offensive measures.

 

[justcallmeslow]

agreed, in england (HOME turf! ) we cant ask for black coffees or sing ba ba black sheep, a song as old as the hills.....

not asking for black coffees has never been a thing and the ba ba black sheep was a lie if i remember correctly. At best, it was 1 stupid person who said that and the entire country said they were stupid. If you're going to talk about us being too concerned with political correctness, actually use decent stories.

im not talking about "you" being to concerned about political correctness, and the ba-ba black sheep wasnt a lie, my younger brother was told of and we got a letter home when he asked for it to be sang...and when i said" we cant ask for black coffees" i meant it is frowned upon to say that, and your meant to say coffee without milk.... back on topic, i can understand the concern, but it is a bit OTT in my opinion.

Nobody frowns upon people asking for black coffee. I have never heard of anyone even blinking at that. Have you been told off for the phrasing before? I guess there must be some people that ridiculous, but I doubt there's many at all.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/600470.stm
http://1millionunited.org/blogs/blog/2010/01/01/the-baa-baa-black-sheep-myth/
As i said, at best it was a one-off incident and everyone else said it was silly.

 

[ApophisMP]

Another sign of American decline, cant do anything without offending someone- well im a white former military- conservative- southern man and i get discriminated against everyday

 

[The Youth Counselor]

This incident happened in San Diego?

I have many friends and family members who reside in that area. Almost everyone of them has shared with me that the local public school system has been dealing with a surge of growing neo-nazism and racial tension. According to them, incidents like this are common, and white nationalists hide behind the veil of American Patriotism.

Many years ago, while staying with my uncle near Carlsbad (near the city) for the 4th of July, a group of skinheads rode around a pickup truck giving nazi salutes and shouting "White Power" and "USA" to spectators watching fireworks. According to my Uncle this was a common sight. He has traveled the world many times over, lived in many towns across many countries and states and he tells me that nowhere else in California is there such an open white supremacist presence. (The only time I had seen such an open display) These guys didn't wave the swastika, or the stars and bars, but they waved the stars and stripes which for them is code for whiteness.

One of my best friends shaved his head one summer, and he also really loves the colors red, white, and black. A group of skinheads mistakened him for a kindred spirit. But John is a proud Russian whose family suffered in the Great Patriotic War, and he told them off. An altercation started and could've turned nasty, but at the time he was working security and luckily was at his workplace and his co-workers were able to diffuse the situation.

When you have a Border Town like San Diego things are more complicated. There is nothing wrong about showing patriotic pride, but to do it just to belittle someone elses' nationality is offensive and knowing the local racial climate, I can understand the school's decision.

Just as say I would defend anyone's religious beliefs, but wouldn't defend a man in full Hasidic Garb walking into the women's section of a mosque during prayer time and reading the Torah just to cause a stir.

 

[Stu35]

so, the school was just trying to avoid conflict
okay, no big deal...

I don't know if thats sarcasm?

If so, then apologies, read no further.

If not then:

Yes, it's a bloody huge deal - if you're not allowed to wear your home nations flag IN YOUR HOME NATION, in order to "avoid violence", then things are being done wrong.

Specifically, the wrong people are being banned from doing something.

Let me put it in another concept - should we ban women from going outside after dark because thats when most rapes happen?

Or should we target rapists, for failing to live by the laws of our land?


Now, I appreciate that the 'tension' of the previous year was as much to do with the American students deciding to confront the lads walking around with the Mexican flag, however as far as I can tell - they weren't looking for a fight, simply engaging in a bit of banter with some lads(the Mexicans) they saw showing some pride in their(Mexican) nation, by showing pride in their(the Americans) own nation (America).

...

So, in short, I maintain that people in their own country should never be banned from bearing symbols of their home nation - Unless they're going to abuse those symbols (I'm thinking along British National Party (Our version of Nazis) here).

Should not have flags up at all. Nationalism doesnt make sence.

I agree that Nationalism does not make sense. However bearing a flag is not nationalism, it's patriotism, and while I can understand those who would argue that there's no sense in being proud of something you have no control over (where you're from), I'd say that humanity binds itself together along tribal lines - over time we'll all just be humans, working together, but for now, the nation is the biggest building block that allows us to carry on together, and showing pride in it isn't a bad thing.

 

[sir.rutthed]

so wearing your OWN country's flag IN THAT COUNTRY could offend the people who aren't native yet want to live there?
why would it offend them? they obviously like america, so why dislike the flag?

!

Not quite. There's actually a movement in California and other western states of rather violent Mexican immigrants (legal and otherwise) who hold protests and argue for basically the entire American Southwest and California to be ceded back to Mexico because the land was "illegally taken" back in the Spanish American War. They're violent thugs and loudmothed assholes with gang connections, and this action was probably meant to deter them from retaliation. That said, fuck that shit. If they'd tried to stop someone from waving a Mexican flag around they'd have been jumped all over by the media almost instantly, but it's gotten to the point where people are so afraid to offend the minority that the majority are suppressing themselves. California seems to be the worst of it, but it's spreading.

 

[SilverUchiha]

This sounds like a "political correctness" bullshit thing. While I disagree that suing the crap out of the school wasn't the best way to deal with it, the school clearly had no right to do that.