Dragon Age II and the decline of the classic RPG

[kingcom]

Baldur's Gate and Fallout are all games i did't play so i will not say, but ppl often have nostalgia goggles on when talking about classics.

Am I the only one that hates this comment? Your opinion is invalid because you played an older game? Something seems a little contradicatory with the statement when someone like me can go back and play through another 10 hour session of Baldur's Gate or play through Mass Effect 2 but cannot do so again with Dragon Age 2. Why cant it be that we genuinely dislike a game and something is not impairing our vision?

just wanted to say thanks for misquoting the WRONG person <.<

try not to "edit" a quote if you can't do it right

It was directed at both of you.

 

[spartan231490]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/116/1168985p1.html

This is an excellent article that describes how Dragon Age II's glaring differences with its predecessor are part of a much larger theme in gaming today. That theme can be summed up as the death of the RPG genre as we know it, but the rebirth of its core elements in other game types.

Read the article- really, it's worth your time- and discuss. Is the RPG genre on its way out the door?

I'm hoping skyrim at least doesn't follow this trend too much. I like my classic rpg much more than I like action games with rpg elements.

 

[GiantRaven]

See, that's not true at all. Calling it Dragon Age 2 is, technically, a lie. Because despite the setting its not a sequel. It's this that fans of Origins get mad about becuase they felt like they were sold somthing that wasn't Dragon Age 2.

This may tread into the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy a little too much but Dragon Age 2 is the sequel to Dragon Age because, well, it's Dragon Age 2. This is what Bioware decided the sequel to the first game would be. It isn't up to the fans to decide what classes as the sequel, it's up to the creators.

 

[Sabazios]

Jesus, this has been a bad thread. You seem to have made this at a time when all the people who hate DA:O come out.

 

[Bonecrusher]

Some people think DA2 is a perfect game.
Yeah, IF you play the game as another AAA title, it is a great game.
But if you play it as a "traditional" RPG, it really sux.

The story is boring, the same maps over and over is not excusable, other than Varric (maybe Isabela) characters are dull, dialog wheel is stupid.

I have grew with/played games like Champions Of Krynn, Eye Of The Beholder, Dark Sun, Betrayal At Krondor, Betrayal In Antara, Stonekeep, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate 1, Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape Torment etc.

Best RPGs I played last year were Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, Mask Of The Betrayer, Fallout 3, Alpha Protocol, Fallout: New Vegas.
The genre is not "DEAD".
But, let's face it, no one cares about the generation comes from SSi, Sierra, Interplay games.
Game companies aim for new American console gamers, so it is easier to do games like DA2.
Bioware makes their "RPG"s less and less RP-ish.

Putting experience bar, stats menu and lots of enemies is more than enough to be branded as "RPG".

You do realize that this is nothing new.
When Baldur's Gate was released, Tabletop DnD players complained.
When Neverwinter was released, Baldur's Gate players complained.
When Morrowind was released Neverwinter's Night Players complained.
etc. etc.

"complainers gonna complain" -> "so, whatever your argument is, you are wrong"

however, most of the Tabletop DnD gamers really liked Baldur's Gate (if you assume the players previously played any cRPG game).

Yes, Neverwinter Nights was a bit disappointment. Main story and gameplay of NWN was dull, compared to Baldur's Gate series.
It is same for NWN 2.
This is mostly because these games are not made for epic story, but for creating a sandbox game for PnP gamers. And I know PnP gamers loved these games - there was a huge community especially for NWN1.

However, Mask Of The Betrayer and Hordes Of The Underdark were great campaigns and can be comparable with games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape Torment. They were good games in the NWN series.

When Morrowind came, NWN players didn't complain, because:
1) Morrowind came before NWN (NWN -> June/July 2002, Morrowind May 2002)
2) Morrowind was sequel of Arena and Daggerfall.
Morrowind was a great game, sandbox of RPGs. You can do whatever you want, that's the fun of this game.

Bioware's promise with the DA series was "spiritual sequel to BG series". However, they didn't do it.
That is the complain of gamers.
It is not another "complainers gonna complain" kind of thing...

 

[Marik Bentusi]

Like Yahtzee put it in his part of Game Damage: Genres don't die out, they evolve and merge with others and sometimes new games pop up and introduce new genres.

If the recent history of videogames showed me anything, it's that RPG's most common contemporary shape is parts of it infused in other genres in order to give the player a feeling of achievement and progress and also to stretch playtime through grinding sometimes.

I don't see that as a bad thing, nor a good thing. It's a change that carries possibilities. These genre mixes can potentially make for new scenarios tho (slowly, over time), so that one bright day we finally don't have to stroll through World of Tolkien 2 whenever we pick up an RPG or play Halo Call of War Honor 6 when we play an FPS (It's exaggeration, but I hope you get my point). Not to say such things can't emerge without genre mixing, but I think genre mixing can contribute to a certain refreshing effect.
Tho personally my money for innovation is on people like Valve that recognize promising games and help the developers reach their goals without the tight limitations of manpower or money. Worked for Portal.

But I digress.

TL;DR
Everything changes, change is neither good or bad inherently.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

See, that's not true at all. Calling it Dragon Age 2 is, technically, a lie. Because despite the setting its not a sequel. It's this that fans of Origins get mad about becuase they felt like they were sold somthing that wasn't Dragon Age 2.

This may tread into the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy a little too much but Dragon Age 2 is the sequel to Dragon Age because, well, it's Dragon Age 2. This is what Bioware decided the sequel to the first game would be. It isn't up to the fans to decide what classes as the sequel, it's up to the creators.

I see what you mean but someone doesn't sell an apple under the guise of a banana and then expect people not to be upset when they get a apple.

It's that simple.

 

[Nimcha]

I do feel like people try to ignore Dragon Age 2's huge flaws. The Escapist community in particular.

Are you kidding? Where you around on this forum when the game just came out? The amount of bile spewed by the 'haters' was extraordinary. And kinda funny at first.

 

[kingcom]

Like Yahtzee put it in his part of Game Damage: Genres don't die out, they evolve and merge with others and sometimes new games pop up and introduce new genres.

If the recent history of videogames showed me anything, it's that RPG's most common contemporary shape is parts of it infused in other genres in order to give the player a feeling of achievement and progress and also to stretch playtime through grinding sometimes.

I don't see that as a bad thing, nor a good thing. It's a change that carries possibilities. These genre mixes can potentially make for new scenarios tho (slowly, over time), so that one bright day we finally don't have to stroll through World of Tolkien 2 whenever we pick up an RPG or play Halo Call of War Honor 6 when we play an FPS (It's exaggeration, but I hope you get my point). Not to say such things can't emerge without genre mixing, but I think genre mixing can contribute to a certain refreshing effect.
Tho personally my money for innovation is on people like Valve that recognize promising games and help the developers reach their goals without the tight limitations of manpower or money. Worked for Portal.

I think the real problem is the fear people have about their favourite aspect of the genere being lost in transition. I know my favourite aspect is gone never to be seen again and its possible other elements see less and less use and eventually disappear as the go on into what becomes next.

 

[Catchy Slogan]

I find it funny so many people never finished Origins.... oh wait, I'm part of that #.

Still shocking it was almost half the people who bought it, never beat it. That is a clear sign that they couldn't just keep the game the same. I did finish DA2 tho.

I only finished it like a week or two before DA 2 came out, in anticipation. It's a decent game, but after a while it just got boring/ tedious.

OT: Have you seen The Witcher 2? Delcine my ass. One game that has some major flaws and people start claiming it's the RPG apocalypse.

For the record, I aknowledge DA2's falws and ejoyed it regardless.

Much like how Alpha Protocol can be enjoyable. Despite it's glaring flaws.

 

[Nimcha]

See, that's not true at all. Calling it Dragon Age 2 is, technically, a lie. Because despite the setting its not a sequel. It's this that fans of Origins get mad about becuase they felt like they were sold somthing that wasn't Dragon Age 2.

This may tread into the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy a little too much but Dragon Age 2 is the sequel to Dragon Age because, well, it's Dragon Age 2. This is what Bioware decided the sequel to the first game would be. It isn't up to the fans to decide what classes as the sequel, it's up to the creators.

I see what you mean but someone doesn't sell an apple under the guise of a banana and then expect people not to be upset when they get a apple.

It's that simple.

The problem is with the people who are expecting something. Because they are always wrong, and everybody expects something different.

Hating a game because of the name it has is incredibly stupid, no matter which way you look at it.

 

[kingcom]

I find it funny so many people never finished Origins.... oh wait, I'm part of that #.

Still shocking it was almost half the people who bought it, never beat it. That is a clear sign that they couldn't just keep the game the same. I did finish DA2 tho.

I only finished it like a week or two before DA 2 came out, in anticipation. It's a decent game, but after a while it just got boring/ tedious.

OT: Have you seen The Witcher 2? Delcine my ass. One game that has some major flaws and people start claiming it's the RPG apocalypse.

For the record, I aknowledge DA2's falws and ejoyed it regardless.

Much like how Alpha Protocol can be enjoyable. Despite it's glaring flaws.

Alpha Protocol was flawed genuis though. The big thing again is fear, people fear that if Bioware goes down this slipper slope, everything will.

 

[GiantRaven]

I see what you mean but someone doesn't sell an apple under the guise of a banana and then expect people not to be upset when they get a apple.

It's that simple.

I think it can be seen more that Dragon Age: Origins was one kind of apple, whilst Dragon Age 2 was a different type of apple, which had a differing taste. Bioware didn't exactly cover it up either. There are a huge wealth of articles describing how the second game is different from the first.

Personally I think if people aren't going to research the games they plan to buy (and they really should, considering the cost of a single game) then they deserve to be disappointed when they don't get what they expected.

 

[boag]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/116/1168985p1.html

This is an excellent article that describes how Dragon Age II's glaring differences with its predecessor are part of a much larger theme in gaming today. That theme can be summed up as the death of the RPG genre as we know it, but the rebirth of its core elements in other game types.

Read the article- really, it's worth your time- and discuss. Is the RPG genre on its way out the door?

no, no it isnt.

If it was then you should have put on your tinfoil hat when Bioshock came out.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/4-BioShock

There are still classic RPGs being made, you just need to look for them, just like in golden days of Nintendo, when a DECENT rpg would come out once every 10 or 11 months.

 

[Catchy Slogan]

*snip*

Alpha Protocol was flawed genuis though. The big thing again is fear, people fear that if Bioware goes down this slipper slope, everything will.

Some people think anything Bioware does is genius... I kid, I kid. ;P

I think Bioware had been lulled into a false sense of 'We Can Do No Wrong' and this backlash will (hopefully) teach them that they (should) know better. Bioware are capable of achieving amazing things. And hopefully they will continue to do so.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I see what you mean but someone doesn't sell an apple under the guise of a banana and then expect people not to be upset when they get a apple.

It's that simple.

I think it can be seen more that Dragon Age: Origins was one kind of apple, whilst Dragon Age 2 was a different type of apple, which had a differing taste. Bioware didn't exactly cover it up either. There are a huge wealth of articles describing how the second game is different from the first.

Personally I think if people aren't going to research the games they plan to buy (and they really should, considering the cost of a single game) then they deserve to be disappointed when they don't get what they expected.

Perhaps thats a lesson learned for those that were dissapointed then. In thier defense I think it isn't too much of a jump to expect a similar or the same playstyle in a sequel.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Baldur's Gate and Fallout are all games i did't play so i will not say, but ppl often have nostalgia goggles on when talking about classics.

Am I the only one that hates this comment? Your opinion is invalid because you played an older game? Something seems a little contradicatory with the statement when someone like me can go back and play through another 10 hour session of Baldur's Gate or play through Mass Effect 2 but cannot do so again with Dragon Age 2. Why cant it be that we genuinely dislike a game and something is not impairing our vision?

just wanted to say thanks for misquoting the WRONG person <.<

try not to "edit" a quote if you can't do it right

It was directed at both of you.

relax pal, i never said it was wrong. im just saying that nostalgia does cloud ones judgement from time to time. You can be absolutely correct about Baldur's Gate and Fallout, and with respect, you are probably right since everyone one and their grandma says it so.

If you dislike a game for whatever reason that is your reason. Because of Nostalgia Goggles i never take anyone's words on face value. So until i've played those games, i really cannot have an opinion.

And sir i do not entirely agree with what the other person said, so do not misquote me. There is nothing i depise more than misrepresentation.

 

[MacOfDonald]

Snippety

I swear, people are trying harder and harder to be offended by things these days, particularly gamers.

Sure, in DA2 there were a whole bunch of recycled 'dungeons'. I read in an interview with the DA team that they got to a point and realised that if they recycled dungeons, they could fit more quests and side-storylines in. That's their choice. It's their game to make. I think once a game becomes popular enough, the 'fans' take it upon themselves to decide they then own the rights to the game and should be making the decisions.

Get over it. Please. You can waffle on all you like about why your expert opinion defines a particular game as backwards or rubbish or a copout or a sellout or disloyal to nostalgic personal preferences. But in the end, you aren't making the game, and if they company tries to make a game better for you, as fans, then you are getting something special and you should be grateful.

Thumbs up for effort, instead of thumbs down for disappointment. I feel like gamers nowadays have a nasty habit of English Class Criticism. You know when you watched movies in English and started deconstructing them, and you got so drilled in it that you forgot how to enjoy something for what it was?

All I can respond to this is why I didn't like DA2. I play an RPG to roleplay. To chose, to define who I am. DA2 was unsuccessful in this regard. The illusion of choice is really all you get. You want to help the mages? Hawke is never given a chance to talk to the escaped mages on many occassiosn and even arbirarily tasked with hunting them down. Hawke fights some templars and then kills the mages then the Knight Commander. You want to side with the templars, Hawke kills the mages then the Knight Commander. Nothing changes. Hawke flees from the blight to Kirkwall, Hawke live in Kirkwall despite the blight ending. Hawke save Kirkwall, and Isabella runs regardless of whether you were going to give her the relic or not. She comes back due to a stat Hawke has and YOU actually get to defeat and chose how to defeat the Quanri. Hawke chose to go on an expedition, Hawke loses his family regardless of where they are or why.

My favourite moment in the whole game was a conversation with Isabella asking ME to run off and go sailing, to seek MY destiny. I thought for just a brief moment I thought i had a chance at my story. Instead it went back to Hawke's.

Also, why cant you criticise something, why should a game be infallible? Why should we not treat something critically? How will the medium grow and mature if we do not chose to treat it on a the level of maturity that allows fault to exist?

Yes the Game Development team can chose what they want in the game, just as the consumer has the right to criticise and complain that the game is not what they want. Thats the balance every industry has to deal with. Its called quality control.

I'm certainly not saying that people shouldn't criticise. But it would be nice to see some compassionate criticism, with a bit of respect to the people who make it. Left, right and centre the majority of opinion seems to be, "I wanted it exactly like this, and it wasn't exactly like this, so this game is a pile of smelly poop and the company is an even bigger pile, and I'll only look at this with kind eyes if it stops doing things I don't want it to."

Yeah, there were problems with DA2. I loved the game, and I know that. I loved DA:O and I know that had problems too.

And I guess when it comes to 'faults', as you said it really only comes down to personal preference. I liked that there was a certain inevitabilty to your actions in DA2 because it felt like fate, for lack of a less cheesy term. And there's always the old phrase that the destination isn't what is important, it's the journey. And there's nothing wrong with wanting more freedom, like yourself. But there are a lot of people out there saying that the game is awful because it isn't how they wanted it. That it's destroying a genre, or being disloyal to fans. But that kind of thinking just seems so... selfish to me, you know? Not liking something doesn't make it bad. It doesn't mean that the creators made a mistake. They made it how they believed it should be made. While that doesn't excuse critical examination, and naturally shouldn't, I think it should warrant a good deal more respect from the people who experience it.

But then, maybe I am naive in wanting people to be more tolerant of things they don't like.