The primary problem with that statement is that it isn't new or different. It's unexpected for the series, but it's not original in any sense of the word. The general theme of the ending was ripped straight from Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann, while the actual end choices were ripped from Deus Ex. There wasn't anything new or even different about it, and that doesn't even begin to take into account the fact that it's shoddily written and an all around disaster.quiet_samurai said:
Dragon Age Origins Lead Designer speaks out against ME3 Ending
- Thread starter endtherapture
- Start date
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Because it's a strawman. It's easier to paint an entire group of people as whiny, childish, entitled babies who didn't get their way than as rational reasonable adults who might have a decent point. If they did, then they'd have to argue that point. Instead, they get to pidgeonhole it to confirm their superiority while missing/ignoring the point of the argument entirely. They don't like what we have to say and would rather stick their fingers in their ears.Hannibal942 said:
BioWare has been a sacred cow to many people for a long time. There was a time when any discussion of their games that was not completely positive with a glowing recommendation was laughed off these forums. DA2 dimmed it, but it's still there. The Escapist news posts on this site count for about 20% in the past week, compare other news media at 10%.
It's just easier, takes less thought, and a whole lot less effort.
You know, I didn't hate the ending in concept. I hated how my choices throughout the games didn't matter in the end. If, instead of doing the "A, B, or C" deal, they had incorporated some of the major decisions, I'd have been perfectly fine.
Instead, they did the Deus Ex thing, and Deus Ex's ending sucked too.
Instead, they did the Deus Ex thing, and Deus Ex's ending sucked too.
And this is where he's wrong. Happily-ever-after endings are unfulfilling, overdone, boring and forgettable. Bittersweet is where it's at.endtherapture said:
I didn't like the execution of the ME3 ending, but the ideas behind it were good. Shepard speaks about the need for sacrifices in all three games, and the reapers are portrayed as almost unstoppable. If everything ends without a price to pay for the galaxy, it's no better than a "Congratulations! A Winner Is You!" and a cut to black.
The guy made Dragon Age Origins - all 3 of the options in DA:O are bittersweet - you sacrifice your most steadfast companion, or the champion of the nation to kill the Archdemon. You sacrifice yourself to kill the Archdemon, or you enter into a dark pact with a shady character to allow both yourself and your Grey Warden companion to survive the final battle.Kakulukia said:
All 3 are bittersweet - none are perfect, happily-everafter rainbow endings.
The mistake with ME3 is that it was not bittersweet, just bitter.
That doesn't change the fact that he specifically asked for a happy ending in ME3.endtherapture said:
And exactly how is saving the entire fucking galaxy from annihilation bitter? That's the very definition of bittersweet. You saved the galaxy, but a heavy price had to be paid to achieve it.
It wasn't bittersweet though, I, and many other people didn't feel a great sense of accomplishment, as well and a pang of loss, or vice versa.Kakulukia said:
I just felt in order:
1. WTF
2. WTF IS THAT THE ENDING
3. WTFFFFFFFFFF
4. Depressed
5. Angry
Seconded. I think a lot of people who are angry at the ending think it's because they did not get a happy one, in reality it's because they have no idea what happened in the ending they were provided with.endtherapture said:
People could be very happy with the endings that were provided if we just knew what the hell is going on.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean "Everything ends happily ever after". Taking DA:O as an example and applying his words to it, I'm fairly certain he means essentially "end with a feeling of accomplishment", which ME3 failed pretty miserably at.Kakulukia said:
The actual end choices themselves were perfectly fine IMO, the problem is the way they were represented. If they had cut out the god-child bullshit and gave a proper epilogue, it would be just fine, but they couldn't manage that apparently.
How it should have ended was Shepard stumbles to that console and instead of collapsing on an elevator, the Prothean VI shows up and explains the options then asks for Shepard's choice. One is selected, the wave-o'-space-magic happens, then we get an epilogue ala Dragon Age:Origins where they explain what happened to each of the major factions and characters we dealt with throughout the game.
That would have been more than sufficient to end the game well, and I would be quite satisfied with it. Unfortunately, instead of that, they managed some utterly ridiculous bit of hand-waving and contradictions of established canon that make the whole thing both utterly pointless and utterly nonsensical.
The thing about the ending is that even the save the galaxy part is not clear. We of course infer it and tend to believe that the explosion of the mass relays were really tame and not like what was shown on Arrival.Kakulukia said:
But what the games does show is that the energy ripples were enormous and very destructive (because the Normandy takes a beating even escaping the blast).
I find hard to believe that the intended ending is that Shepard destroyed the Galaxy - but when what clearly happened is not reflected in what is shown things really did not go well.
Kinda stupid since DA:O may well have ended with you (spoiler!) dying to defeat the enemy threatening everything. Kinda like another Bioware game.
Wrong. It's Mass Effect 3 itself that sets up the expectation that there is a happy ending hidden amongst all the endings.Hyper-space said:
- The Military Strength system, along with the fact that the series (not to mention the genre) is based on a 'choices matter' paradigm, sets up the expectation that players can have a happy (or at the very least semi-happy) ending.
By giving us a way to track our military strength against the Reapers (even labeled with a big fat "Minimum" indicator) it encourages players to bust their ass off, do every side mission, play the galaxy at war multiplayer (or Mass Effect Infiltrator on iOS) and probe the entire galaxy for war assets, and therefore automatically creates the expectation in us that we can have a happy or semi-happy ending.
- Throughout the game series, the game creates the expectation that - as far as happy endings go - there are at least one of three ways the series has a happy ending:
1) A happy ending for the galaxy (which doesn't necessarily mean Shephard survives)
2) A happy ending for Shephard
3) A happy ending for Shephards crew/teammates (which also doesn't necessarily mean Shephard survives)
The way the game sets up those expectations are multiple and happens across all three ME games, but i wanted to mention one in particular: ROMANCES.
Romances indicate that Shephard are fighting for a future with his love interest, and therefore sets up the expectation that Shephard and his love interest actually has a chance to see a future together. I've read several forum posts that explains that, on Rannoch, the conversation between Shephard and Tali about returning to her home to live had people dream up an ending movie or real-time cutscene with (male) Shephard and Tali building a home together. If you ever get through the Baldur's Gate series with a romance, this would also be reflected in the epilogue that you had a future together.
But it turns out that players get disappointed on both 1, 2 and 3. No matter what you do, the Relays are destroyed, isolating the entire Galaxy - not to mention the other consequences that might also affect the galaxy (for example the synthesis forced DNA resampling for everyone if you picked that), as well as the destruction the Reapers have already caused. Shephards crew gets stranded in every single ending, and Shephard bites the dust in almost every single ending (and the one where Shephard survives is neither consistent nor convincing, and doesn't change the fact that Shephards love interest is stranded far away from Shephard).
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So in short: Even if those "absurd rules" you are talking about (which i would like to point out aren't absurd at all. They are common sense, and were created exactly to avoid endings like the one in ME3) didn't exist, the game would still have been ripped on for it's ending, because the expectations the ending fails to live up to aren't based on absurd rules of any kind: They were set up by the games themself.
It's perfectly possible within the rules you mention to have an exciting and interesting story which ends on a high note and leaves people satisfied. It's the same reason Submarines are made of metal, not of bread.
I agree with you completely, and I actually find the submarine line pretty funny. When a friend asked me what Mass Effect 3 was like, I said it was like a Submarine sandwich, well made and presented, with your favorite fillings and toppings, except the last two inches which are filled with fresh excrement. Sure, you can choose not to finish the sandwich, but you're not getting what you paid for. The expectation falls short of the reality. More so, you as a consumer have the right to complain to the people that sold you this product and demand reparations. If they don't compensate you, then you have the right to complain to others about the quality of the service and to not purchase that product again.Athinira said:
Everyone of the forums who is arguing "stop complaining about the ending, I liked it and so should you" and "don't complain, it's their story not yours" are fundamentally missing the point. We have the right to be pissed off at what we got, as gamers we are indeed entitled to have a game meet our expectation, and while others might not support us in our beliefs, they certainly don't have the right to tell us that we're wrong.
My problem with the ending was as many people have already stated, that the entire final choice system, provided by the inexplicable God Child felt like one massive Deus Ex Machina and a massive U-turn from the usual choice-based consequences. It left the experience feeling disappointing and lazy.
In short, Bioware really dropped the ball and sadly, even if they make DLC to fix this; for me, it can never replace the feeling I had just before the battle, where I was totally invested in the outcome.
All we can hope is that Bioware never does this again?.ever.
This laziness extends further back than simply the final choice:
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- Say beginning of the final battle; after having spent the entire game, searching every corner of the galaxy for every possible war asset and completing every quest I found, I wanted to see some of those assets actually have some tangible effect on the final battle.
The Shadow Brokers Wet Squad taking out husks, the Zhu's Hope guys working collectively around the battlefield, even any one of the tens of ships collected actually doing something. Just one mention would have been nice.
- Even the major races (brought in from hours of gameplay) and pretty major game decisions weren't included. The Quarians, Geth, Krogan and Turians only get the equivalent of a sanctimonious nod in Hackett's speech. Which compared to the death/survival mechanic in ME2 is downright pathetic.
- This and that most of the characters only get around 5 lines of goodbye dialogue; compared to say Thane and Mordin who deservedly get an entire scene, both of which are truly gut-wrenching.(This is more personal preference, you could argue on some level the entire game is one massive goodbye to each character. Though I would still have a longer talk with my best friend/love interest than 5 lines of dialogue, if I figured one of us probably isn't coming back.)
These problems however pale in comparison to the appalling nature of the final ending.
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- Say beginning of the final battle; after having spent the entire game, searching every corner of the galaxy for every possible war asset and completing every quest I found, I wanted to see some of those assets actually have some tangible effect on the final battle.
The Shadow Brokers Wet Squad taking out husks, the Zhu's Hope guys working collectively around the battlefield, even any one of the tens of ships collected actually doing something. Just one mention would have been nice.
- Even the major races (brought in from hours of gameplay) and pretty major game decisions weren't included. The Quarians, Geth, Krogan and Turians only get the equivalent of a sanctimonious nod in Hackett's speech. Which compared to the death/survival mechanic in ME2 is downright pathetic.
- This and that most of the characters only get around 5 lines of goodbye dialogue; compared to say Thane and Mordin who deservedly get an entire scene, both of which are truly gut-wrenching.(This is more personal preference, you could argue on some level the entire game is one massive goodbye to each character. Though I would still have a longer talk with my best friend/love interest than 5 lines of dialogue, if I figured one of us probably isn't coming back.)
These problems however pale in comparison to the appalling nature of the final ending.
I have no problem at all with a grim/bitter-sweet ending, that's entirely your preference. The problems with this ending are certainly nothing to do with the death of Shepard, or the sadness of the situation following Shepard's 'choice'.
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- Firstly, a bout of total lunacy must have hit the writing team, when they decided to include 'The God Child'. This crazy idea not only detracts from the overall image of the Reapers, it reduces the mystery and power the Reapers have as creatures by saying it created them. There is no explanation for what this thing is, where it came from, or why it is motivated by its twisted logic to save organics. The Reapers had no need for some 'controlling influence', even if the 'to preserve organic life' idea can be accepted. .
- Also, the crazy logic this guy goes through. I can't understand what he thinks the inherent differences between AI (I assume he means AI when he refers to synthetics, otherwise in future I'll be carefully watching my polyester jumper) and organics are that will cause one to automatically destroy the other. These especially after you get the Geth and Quarians to cooperate.
- Even if his logic had made sense, the random inclusion of a philosophical justification for the Reapers, was unnecessary. There's certainly nothing wrong with a game that talks about philosophy; Mass Effect has done it many times throughout the game. But if this was going to be the focus of the entire ending, it needed to be something that actually got some consideration, not just some concept picked at random; and only properly mentioned in a couple of instances in the game.
This all could have been remedied to some degree, if Shepard had the option to actually say (and/or do) something meaningful; rather than just blithely accepting the crazy nonsense being thrown at him. But no, he just stands there and simply choses one of the three ridiculous options.
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- Firstly, a bout of total lunacy must have hit the writing team, when they decided to include 'The God Child'. This crazy idea not only detracts from the overall image of the Reapers, it reduces the mystery and power the Reapers have as creatures by saying it created them. There is no explanation for what this thing is, where it came from, or why it is motivated by its twisted logic to save organics. The Reapers had no need for some 'controlling influence', even if the 'to preserve organic life' idea can be accepted. .
- Also, the crazy logic this guy goes through. I can't understand what he thinks the inherent differences between AI (I assume he means AI when he refers to synthetics, otherwise in future I'll be carefully watching my polyester jumper) and organics are that will cause one to automatically destroy the other. These especially after you get the Geth and Quarians to cooperate.
- Even if his logic had made sense, the random inclusion of a philosophical justification for the Reapers, was unnecessary. There's certainly nothing wrong with a game that talks about philosophy; Mass Effect has done it many times throughout the game. But if this was going to be the focus of the entire ending, it needed to be something that actually got some consideration, not just some concept picked at random; and only properly mentioned in a couple of instances in the game.
This all could have been remedied to some degree, if Shepard had the option to actually say (and/or do) something meaningful; rather than just blithely accepting the crazy nonsense being thrown at him. But no, he just stands there and simply choses one of the three ridiculous options.
So, the final 'options'....
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- These represent the major problem with the ending of Mass Effect 3, the total lack of choice, the removal of any consequence of your previous actions. Even if the endings hadn?t basically resulted in virtually identical outcomes, the fact that apparently nothing we have done up until this point doesn?t seem to have any effect, is ridiculous, basically invalidating anything done in the previous 120+ hours of gameplay.
You end up choosing between 3 options, whose differences are so inconsequential, that you are essentially picking your favourite colour.
- The endings themselves, are totally crazy; how any of them, including the supposed 'peace' option actually solve anything, is a mystery for omniscient infants to determine. Why, does 'synthesis' prevent the synthesised from creating synthetics, or change anything for that matter?
- Furthermore, all these choices result in the destruction of the Mass Relays, which means that even if there were some mention of anyone you'd dragged into this fight, none of them are leaving the Sol System anytime soon, and will probably die there. This also cuts every section of the galaxy off from one another, so the races you spent the game uniting are now isolated.
So not only do you have no real choice, but the one option essentially obliterates all established galactic civilization.
But the worst absolute worst thing about these endings is that none of the characters, races or anything is any given closure. All the game has led up to the idea that you have a slight chance to survive this, or someone to survive this. Even watching everyone dissolve to ash would have been an improvement, instead of the flight of the Normandy and an old man referring to 'the Shepard'.
I understand that some people believe that the ending had to be bleak and Shepard should die, but this doesn?t have to be the only ending.
There could have been multiple endings some with Shepard and everything fading into oblivion, and if people want it, an ending where Shepard survives and you get to see all your friends and you congratulating each other. Even seeing somebody putting up a statue of Shepard on Earth or your love interest mourning your death; Liara mourned Shepard for 2 years after him dying in Mass Effect, and yet she ends up smiling on some random planet with Joker!! (Also why were they running away).
If there are going to be choices, let them be distinct and cater for more than one type of player.
All of this felt like a total betrayal of tone and ideas behind Mass Effect, where your actions had consequences. If someone spent 3 games picking every Paragon option, hoping Shepard will live, that person deserves the opportunity to get the ending they want; as I understood it, this is the entire Mass Effect ethos.
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- These represent the major problem with the ending of Mass Effect 3, the total lack of choice, the removal of any consequence of your previous actions. Even if the endings hadn?t basically resulted in virtually identical outcomes, the fact that apparently nothing we have done up until this point doesn?t seem to have any effect, is ridiculous, basically invalidating anything done in the previous 120+ hours of gameplay.
You end up choosing between 3 options, whose differences are so inconsequential, that you are essentially picking your favourite colour.
- The endings themselves, are totally crazy; how any of them, including the supposed 'peace' option actually solve anything, is a mystery for omniscient infants to determine. Why, does 'synthesis' prevent the synthesised from creating synthetics, or change anything for that matter?
- Furthermore, all these choices result in the destruction of the Mass Relays, which means that even if there were some mention of anyone you'd dragged into this fight, none of them are leaving the Sol System anytime soon, and will probably die there. This also cuts every section of the galaxy off from one another, so the races you spent the game uniting are now isolated.
So not only do you have no real choice, but the one option essentially obliterates all established galactic civilization.
But the worst absolute worst thing about these endings is that none of the characters, races or anything is any given closure. All the game has led up to the idea that you have a slight chance to survive this, or someone to survive this. Even watching everyone dissolve to ash would have been an improvement, instead of the flight of the Normandy and an old man referring to 'the Shepard'.
I understand that some people believe that the ending had to be bleak and Shepard should die, but this doesn?t have to be the only ending.
There could have been multiple endings some with Shepard and everything fading into oblivion, and if people want it, an ending where Shepard survives and you get to see all your friends and you congratulating each other. Even seeing somebody putting up a statue of Shepard on Earth or your love interest mourning your death; Liara mourned Shepard for 2 years after him dying in Mass Effect, and yet she ends up smiling on some random planet with Joker!! (Also why were they running away).
If there are going to be choices, let them be distinct and cater for more than one type of player.
All of this felt like a total betrayal of tone and ideas behind Mass Effect, where your actions had consequences. If someone spent 3 games picking every Paragon option, hoping Shepard will live, that person deserves the opportunity to get the ending they want; as I understood it, this is the entire Mass Effect ethos.
In short, Bioware really dropped the ball and sadly, even if they make DLC to fix this; for me, it can never replace the feeling I had just before the battle, where I was totally invested in the outcome.
All we can hope is that Bioware never does this again?.ever.