Dragon Age Origins Lead Designer speaks out against ME3 Ending

[SajuukKhar]

It's space magic. It doesn't have to make sense.

Personally, I like to think that if the endings are the true, final endings, that the Crucible doesn't function like it's supposed to, and instead detonates every single relay like the Alpha Relay in Arrival. So the Earth is about 30 minutes away from an explosion that dwarfs even a supernova.

Nice job breaking it, hero.

Well if the endings are true doesn't the endings showing that the waves DON'T murder everyone on the planet kinda disprove that?

 

[Starke]

THERE IS ZERO LOSS OF STARTS DESPITE THE PULSE WAVE HITTING LARGE PORTIONS OF THE GALAXY.

It takes a lot less energy to kill everything on a planet (or glass a planet, or even to atomize a planet) than it does to destroy a star. I don't even know if it's possible IRL for stars to be destroyed through being hit with energy and/or subatomic particles.

#OverthinkingMassEffect

Admittedly all the "should the relay explosions do X" conversations are overthinking as you pointed out.

I just say we slap a Star Trek Heisenberg compensator on our teleporters and be done with it.

Of course, the Heisenberg compensator just looks at an insurmountable problem with actually applying the technology and says, "fuck it, we're doing it live." It does not, say, look at an established bit of how the setting works, and then says, "fuck it, we're changing the rules because we couldn't think of anything better to do."

We've established that the Mass Relays put off a metric fuck-ton of energy when destroyed. Saying this is suddenly benign because the giant space skittles said so, when we've already seen this blow apart an entire solar system is, well, idiotic.

Overthinking? No, I'm barely thinking about this.

Captcha: Face the music...

Well, now that is just funny.

 

[Starke]

It's space magic. It doesn't have to make sense.

Personally, I like to think that if the endings are the true, final endings, that the Crucible doesn't function like it's supposed to, and instead detonates every single relay like the Alpha Relay in Arrival. So the Earth is about 30 minutes away from an explosion that dwarfs even a supernova.

Nice job breaking it, hero.

Well if the endings are true doesn't the endings showing that the waves DON'T murder everyone on the planet kinda disprove that?

No. Because we see the first wave hitting earth, the one off the citadel itself, what we don't see is the result of the Mass Relay in the outer solar system going supernova.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Of course, the Heisenberg compensator just looks at an insurmountable problem with actually applying the technology and says, "fuck it, we're doing it live." It does not, say, look at an established bit of how the setting works, and then says, "fuck it, we're changing the rules because we couldn't think of anything better to do."

We've established that the Mass Relays put off a metric fuck-ton of energy when destroyed. Saying this is suddenly benign because the giant space skittles said so, when we've already seen this blow apart an entire solar system is, well, idiotic.

Overthinking? No, I'm barely thinking about this.

Captcha: Face the music...

Well, now that is just funny.

Except they specifically state that it requires all the energy of the mass relays to enact said choice so they do logically explain what happened to said energy.

-Relays use all their energy to send out pulse wave
-Relays break apart because of the force needed to send out said wave
-No energy left in relays = no supernova explosion

not a had series of events to follow.
.
.
.
What is funny is that stargate did almost this exact same thing to destroy the replicators, except all the stargates didn't blow up.

 

[Starke]

Except they specifically state that it requires all the energy of the mass relays to enact said choice so they do logically explain what happened to said energy.

-Relays use all their energy to send out pulse wave
-Relays break apart because of the force needed to send out said wave
-No energy left in relays = no supernova explosion

not a had series of events to follow.

Except again, this makes no goddamn sense. Saying the Mass Relays can suddenly emit a benign form of transformative energy is a bit like saying you can reconfigure a nuke to only emit a wave of energy that produces puppies and kittens. That is to say, ultimately, there is still going to be a massive release of energy at the source. Further it must be moving substantially faster than light, otherwise any FTL capable ship in the setting could easily outrun the wave.

A discharge of enough energy to destroy a star, at something exceeding the speed of light by several thousand times, is still a wave of destruction that will easily wipe out an entire solar system.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well if the endings are true doesn't the endings showing that the waves DON'T murder everyone on the planet kinda disprove that?

That would be a continuity error. One of several.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Except again, this makes no goddamn sense. Saying the Mass Relays can suddenly emit a benign form of transformative energy is a bit like saying you can reconfigure a nuke to only emit a wave of energy that produces puppies and kittens. That is to say, ultimately, there is still going to be a massive release of energy at the source. Further it must be moving substantially faster than light, otherwise any FTL capable ship in the setting could easily outrun the wave.

A discharge of enough energy to destroy a star, at something exceeding the speed of light by several thousand times, is still a wave of destruction that will easily wipe out an entire solar system.

Except again, Mass Effect doesn't exist in a universe with the same laws of physics as ours.

Trying to hold it to our universes standards isn't an acceptable argument.

 

[Starke]

Except again, this makes no goddamn sense. Saying the Mass Relays can suddenly emit a benign form of transformative energy is a bit like saying you can reconfigure a nuke to only emit a wave of energy that produces puppies and kittens. That is to say, ultimately, there is still going to be a massive release of energy at the source. Further it must be moving substantially faster than light, otherwise any FTL capable ship in the setting could easily outrun the wave.

A discharge of enough energy to destroy a star, at something exceeding the speed of light by several thousand times, is still a wave of destruction that will easily wipe out an entire solar system.

Except again, Mass Effect doesn't exist in a universe with the same laws of physics as ours.

Trying to hold it to our universes standards isn't an acceptable argument.

Ironically? Yes, it actually does. Element Zero is a major handwave, but otherwise, yes, the laws of physics are mostly consistent. Or at least they were initially. Shoddy writing like ME3's ending tend to undermine that a bit.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Ironically? Yes, it actually does. Element Zero is a major handwave, but otherwise, yes, the laws of physics are mostly consistent. Or at least they were initially. Shoddy writing like ME3's ending tend to undermine that a bit.

Two apples are MOSTLY the same also but you cant say one makes less sense, or in this case is less of an apple, because they aren't 100% the same.

Mostly common laws =/= the same.

You cant discredit ones differences because the two are mostly similar overall.

 

[endtherapture]

Except they specifically state that it requires all the energy of the mass relays to enact said choice so they do logically explain what happened to said energy.

-Relays use all their energy to send out pulse wave
-Relays break apart because of the force needed to send out said wave
-No energy left in relays = no supernova explosion

not a had series of events to follow.

Except again, this makes no goddamn sense. Saying the Mass Relays can suddenly emit a benign form of transformative energy is a bit like saying you can reconfigure a nuke to only emit a wave of energy that produces puppies and kittens. That is to say, ultimately, there is still going to be a massive release of energy at the source. Further it must be moving substantially faster than light, otherwise any FTL capable ship in the setting could easily outrun the wave.

A discharge of enough energy to destroy a star, at something exceeding the speed of light by several thousand times, is still a wave of destruction that will easily wipe out an entire solar system.

Indeed. What I find particularly insulting about the ending is that's so entirely inconsistent with the lore. ME has always felt like a more militarised version of Star Trek, with everything having carefully thought about scientific explanation for it, and having an ending which just throws that up in the air is just really pathetic.

It is also utterly inconceivable when you think about it, especially the synthesis ending. Geth and synthetics are programmes stored in metal bodies - they're essentially 0s and 1s on a computer, albeit incredibly advanced. For all synthetics (which are 0s and 1s, or blocks of metal at the very least) to suddenly have organic DNA in them (DNA is a chemical, much like alcohol, or charcoal, or magnesium) is so fucking stupid that I can't believe anyone other than a 10 year old child who has not studied science at ANY LEVEL actually thought it up.

 

[Starke]

Indeed. What I find particularly insulting about the ending is that's so entirely inconsistent with the lore. ME has always felt like a more militarised version of Star Trek, with everything having carefully thought about scientific explanation for it, and having an ending which just throws that up in the air is just really pathetic.

It is also utterly inconceivable when you think about it, especially the synthesis ending. Geth and synthetics are programmes stored in metal bodies - they're essentially 0s and 1s on a computer, albeit incredibly advanced. For all synthetics (which are 0s and 1s, or blocks of metal at the very least) to suddenly have organic DNA in them (DNA is a chemical, much like alcohol, or charcoal, or magnesium) is so fucking stupid that I can't believe anyone other than a 10 year old child who has not studied science at ANY LEVEL actually thought it up.

Well, if it was the same individual that thought up the human genetic diversity in 2, then the 10 year old theory has some weight behind it.

For reference, humans are one of the less diverse species on this planet, to say nothing of the galaxy at large. Including the species that mates with aliens. And the argument that the asari just scramble their own genetic code a bit would still leave them prone to a greater degree of diversity.

Two apples are MOSTLY the same also but you cant say one makes less sense, or in this case is less of an apple, because they aren't 100% the same.

Mostly common laws =/= the same.

You cant discredit ones differences because the two are mostly similar overall.

Okay, I'm sorry, but that's just not a valid argument. What you're saying, regardless of what you meant to say, is that if two things aren't identical, neither one can be evaluated against the other. Please, go back and try again.

 

[DeepComet5581]

Also they didn't subvert formula, they nicked the ending of a 11 year old game (Deus Ex) which was completely different in tone from their game, and put it on the end, hoping that people would like it cos it's "arty".

I really wish people would stop claiming they copy pasted the ending from Deus Ex. Yeah, there was some transhumanism robble airlifted in at the last moment for god knows why, but these were nothing like the DE endings. The DE endings made sense, and honored the spirit of the story that preceded them.

The basic theme is the same.

Destroy (Tong)
Merge (Helios)
Control (Everett)

It's not that they stole the endings. Of course not. However, you said it yourself; the Deus Ex endings made sense because of the context, setting and story of the preceding x hours leading up to it.

With Mass Effect, everything that has been done. All the allies you make and assets you recover mean nothing, because, as long as you meet the minimum requirements, it all boils down to three choices...

Destroy (Anderson)
Merge (Shepard)
Control (Illusive Man)

The story, context and setting doesn't lead up to the ending. From what i've seen, read and heard it's almost completely contradictory. The choices you make don't matter at all, because the same cutscene plays, just with a different colour for the relays and slight changes to the Merge cutscene (And the Destroy, if you have enough Assets).

I just wish Bioware would shut everyone up and say that they're holding a creative competition and get the fans to write what they think should be the ending, then they can scrutinise OUR creative works for once. See how we feel.

/rant

 

[Kahunaburger]

Indeed. What I find particularly insulting about the ending is that's so entirely inconsistent with the lore. ME has always felt like a more militarised version of Star Trek, with everything having carefully thought about scientific explanation for it, and having an ending which just throws that up in the air is just really pathetic.

It is also utterly inconceivable when you think about it, especially the synthesis ending. Geth and synthetics are programmes stored in metal bodies - they're essentially 0s and 1s on a computer, albeit incredibly advanced. For all synthetics (which are 0s and 1s, or blocks of metal at the very least) to suddenly have organic DNA in them (DNA is a chemical, much like alcohol, or charcoal, or magnesium) is so fucking stupid that I can't believe anyone other than a 10 year old child who has not studied science at ANY LEVEL actually thought it up.

Well, if it was the same individual that thought up the human genetic diversity in 2, then the 10 year old theory has some weight behind it.

For reference, humans are one of the less diverse species on this planet, to say nothing of the galaxy at large. Including the species that mates with aliens.

According to the dev diaries, there's apparently someone who works at Bioware whose job it is to verify the scientific accuracy of stuff they invent in the Mass Effect universe. I feel kinda sorry for that guy.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Okay, I'm sorry, but that's just not a valid argument. What you're saying, regardless of what you meant to say, is that if two things aren't identical, neither one can be evaluated against the other. Please, go back and try again.

That isn't what I said at all.

I said you cant say anyone is WORSE/Illogical then the other.

 

[Starke]

Okay, I'm sorry, but that's just not a valid argument. What you're saying, regardless of what you meant to say, is that if two things aren't identical, neither one can be evaluated against the other. Please, go back and try again.

That isn't what I said at all.

I said you cant say anyone is WORSE/Illogical then the other.

Yes, yes, you can. Again, you're making an argument that if two things aren't identical they can't be compared, and then saying what you really mean is if two people are undertaking the same action and one of them catastrophically fails at the task loosing several limbs in the process we can't compare the two... right... please, go back to the drawing board and start over.

According to the dev diaries, there's apparently someone who works at Bioware whose job it is to verify the scientific accuracy of stuff they invent in the Mass Effect universe. I feel kinda sorry for that guy.

Considering the stuff that's slipped through the net lately, I'm kinda horrified for the stuff he/she caught.

 

[nightwolf667]

Okay, I'm sorry, but that's just not a valid argument. What you're saying, regardless of what you meant to say, is that if two things aren't identical, neither one can be evaluated against the other. Please, go back and try again.

That isn't what I said at all.

I said you cant say anyone is WORSE/Illogical then the other.

This is like saying you can't compare Isaac Asimov to Robert Heinlein because they aren't exactly the same. It's like saying you can't compare Stephenie Meyer to Anne Rice or Anne Rice to Bram Stoker because their vampires aren't the same or because they wrote in different time periods.

Mass Effect asked to be judged as science fiction, nay "serious" science fiction, hard science fiction. It stepped up to bat and now it may be beaten over the head with it. The setting barely follows it's own established rules from game to game, even book to book, much less actual scientific ones. This is a bad thing, something any developer/writer deserves to be judged and criticized over because it hurts the believability. It's shoddy writing and worldbuilding at best, damn lazy at worst.

The ending also fails on a thematic level when compared to the rest of the game.

Captcha: Trust me. I think that about sums it up.

 

[Chronologist]

Okay, I'm sorry, but that's just not a valid argument. What you're saying, regardless of what you meant to say, is that if two things aren't identical, neither one can be evaluated against the other. Please, go back and try again.

That isn't what I said at all.

I said you cant say anyone is WORSE/Illogical then the other.

This is like saying you can't compare Isaac Asimov to Robert Heinlein because they aren't exactly the same. It's like saying you can't compare Stephenie Meyer to Anne Rice or Anne Rice to Bram Stoker because their vampires aren't the same or because they wrote in different time periods.

Mass Effect asked to be judged as science fiction, nay "serious" science fiction, hard science fiction. It stepped up to bat and now it may be beaten over the head with it. The setting barely follows it's own established rules from game to game, even book to book, much less actual scientific ones. This is a bad thing, something any developer/writer deserves to be judged and criticized over because it hurts the believability. It's shoddy writing and worldbuilding at best, damn lazy at worst.

The ending also fails on a thematic level when compared to the rest of the game.

Captcha: Trust me. I think that about sums it up.

Just ignore SajuukKar. I've tried reasoning, but he's not really paying attention to anyone else's opinions.

Can we all get back on topic a little bit? And by that discuss the Mass Effect 3 ending, using examples from the series and logic?

I agree with a previous post that it makes no sense that a Mass Relay detonating could either A) Blow up a star system OR B) Destroy the Reapers, but not both.

Again, I like to think that the explosion is a side-effect of the destroy/control/synthesis pulse, and regardless of your choice everyone dies. It's funny, but tragic.

 

[nightwolf667]

[Just ignore SajuukKar. I've tried reasoning, but he's not really paying attention to anyone else's opinions.

Can we all get back on topic a little bit? And by that discuss the Mass Effect 3 ending, using examples from the series and logic?

I agree with a previous post that it makes no sense that a Mass Relay detonating could either A) Blow up a star system OR B) Destroy the Reapers, but not both.

Again, I like to think that the explosion is a side-effect of the destroy/control/synthesis pulse, and regardless of your choice everyone dies. It's funny, but tragic.

Agreed.

Personally, when it comes to the Mass Relays I think it's funny how their ability to withstand destruction diminishes each game. In the first game, the Miu Relay could withstand the force of a supernova, only being knocked off course. In the second game, as of Arrival, they could be destroyed by being hit with a very "large" asteroid. Given how many large objects are floating around in space at any given time, it seems silly that the Mass Relays could be destroyed by one. It still destroyed the system it was in. Now, apparently they send out "benign light" or whatever.

It's a classic case of badass decay.

Also, if the planets in those systems weren't destroyed, then what happens to the Reaper corpses? Are they really dead this time or will people just continue to be indoctrinated like with the Reaper corpse in Mass Effect 2? There are Reaper corpses on every major (and not so major) planet in known civilization, so don't the Reapers just win anyway? What does it mean for future cycles, what with these Reaper hulks hanging out on planets, indoctrinating people? Did it really solve anything at all?

That assumes we choose the Destroy ending, the others also have varying degrees of stupid that make the ending silly. After all, even if everyone is synthesized, how is hybrid warfare any better than organic versus sythetic warfare? When did the organic versus synthetic conflict become the primary theme?

It's stupid no matter which way you shake it and the indoctrination theory does not make it better. So yeah.

 

[SajuukKhar]

This is like saying you can't compare Isaac Asimov to Robert Heinlein because they aren't exactly the same. It's like saying you can't compare Stephenie Meyer to Anne Rice or Anne Rice to Bram Stoker because their vampires aren't the same or because they wrote in different time periods.

Mass Effect asked to be judged as science fiction, nay "serious" science fiction, hard science fiction. It stepped up to bat and now it may be beaten over the head with it. The setting barely follows it's own established rules from game to game, even book to book, much less actual scientific ones. This is a bad thing, something any developer/writer deserves to be judged and criticized over because it hurts the believability. It's shoddy writing and worldbuilding at best, damn lazy at worst.

The ending also fails on a thematic level when compared to the rest of the game.

Captcha: Trust me. I think that about sums it up.

Please read for once in your life

I specifically stated that comparing the two isn't what I am saying you cant do

I am saying you cant fault one series for not following our real-world physics, for the same reasons you couldn't fault Mass effect because it doesn't follow the rules of star Trek even if they may be "similar" because similar =/= the same.

It's like you people don't understand basic English.

 

[Vegosiux]

Doesn't really matter what the relay explosions do.

-Relays went boom
-Assuming that didn't kill everyone, the bulk of galactic fleets is now stuck in the Sol system
-Supplies run out
-Krogans eat everyone