Dragon Age Origins Lead Designer speaks out against ME3 Ending

[Starke]

Please read for once in your life

I specifically stated that comparing the two isn't what I am saying you cant do

I am saying you cant fault one series for not following our real-world physics, for the same reasons you couldn't fault Mass effect because it doesn't follow the rules of star Trek even if they may be "similar" because similar =/= the same.

It's like you people don't understand basic English.

No, you're saying, and have been saying repeatedly that you cannot compare physics in Mass Effect to physics in Mass Effect because they're not the same.

That those physics are based on actual physics with clearly delineated deviations provides a framework to compare the setting's physics with the real world if we so chose, but oddly enough, it isn't even necessary because the setting has already contradicted itself.

 

[Starke]

Doesn't really matter what the relay explosions do.

-Relays went boom
-Assuming that didn't kill everyone, the bulk of galactic fleets is now stuck in the Sol system
-Supplies run out
-Krogans eat everyone

Except the turians and quarians.

-Turians eat quarians.
-Krogans try to eat turians, but fail.

 

[nightwolf667]

-Krogans eat everyone

This! Now, this is an ending I would have accepted! It's clearly the only ending worth having.

 

[Starke]

-Krogans eat everyone

This! Now, this is an ending I would have accepted! It's clearly the only ending worth having.

Wrex: Shepard, you're an idiot, I should eat you!
Wrex: Omnomnom

 

[SajuukKhar]

No, you're saying, and have been saying repeatedly that you cannot compare physics in Mass Effect to physics in Mass Effect because they're not the same.

That those physics are based on actual physics with clearly delineated deviations provides a framework to compare the setting's physics with the real world if we so chose, but oddly enough, it isn't even necessary because the setting has already contradicted itself.

No, I haven't been saying that at all, that is your childish attempt to twist my words into something they are not to continue this argument.


How the FFFF is anything Dark energy related based on real life physics when WE DON'T KNOW HOW DARK ENERGY ACTUALLY WORKS?

there is NOTHING about Dark Energy as it is used in Mass effect and how it is in real life that connect the two besides name.

 

[Chronologist]

[Just ignore SajuukKar. I've tried reasoning, but he's not really paying attention to anyone else's opinions.

Can we all get back on topic a little bit? And by that discuss the Mass Effect 3 ending, using examples from the series and logic?

I agree with a previous post that it makes no sense that a Mass Relay detonating could either A) Blow up a star system OR B) Destroy the Reapers, but not both.

Again, I like to think that the explosion is a side-effect of the destroy/control/synthesis pulse, and regardless of your choice everyone dies. It's funny, but tragic.

Agreed.

Personally, when it comes to the Mass Relays I think it's funny how their ability to withstand destruction diminishes each game. In the first game, the Miu Relay could withstand the force of a supernova, only being knocked off course. In the second game, as of Arrival, they could be destroyed by being hit with a very "large" asteroid. Given how many large objects are floating around in space at any given time, it seems silly that the Mass Relays could be destroyed by one. It still destroyed the system it was in. Now, apparently they send out "benign light" or whatever.

It's a classic case of badass decay.

Also, if the planets in those systems weren't destroyed, then what happens to the Reaper corpses? Are they really dead this time or will people just continue to be indoctrinated like with the Reaper corpse in Mass Effect 2? There are Reaper corpses on every major (and not so major) planet in known civilization, so don't the Reapers just win anyway? What does it mean for future cycles, what with these Reaper hulks hanging out on planets, indoctrinating people? Did it really solve anything at all?

That assumes we choose the Destroy ending, the others also have varying degrees of stupid that make the ending silly. After all, even if everyone is synthesized, how is hybrid warfare any better than organic versus sythetic warfare? When did the organic versus synthetic conflict become the primary theme?

It's stupid no matter which way you shake it and the indoctrination theory does not make it better. So yeah.

I agree, the Relays used to be able to stand up to some serious punishment. It's assumed that they've been around for millions, potentially billions of years, you'd think some of them might get blown up over the millennia. Though I suppose the Reapers could always build more of them.

With the Reaper corpses, I suppose the in-universe logic is that the Space Magic makes them all super-extra-special-dead, to the point that the indoctrination signal can't even function anymore. That, or the derelict reaper in ME2 was only mostly dead.

On the subject of Hungry Hungry Krogans (which should totally be a game now), all of the ships still have FTL drives, and it's assumed that colonization can sorta-maybe terraform planets, so I'm sure the allied fleets can either head home (maybe taking 10+ years) or set up a colony near earth. The krogans managed to live without starving to death before they god space flight, they should be fine.

 

[Chronologist]

No, you're saying, and have been saying repeatedly that you cannot compare physics in Mass Effect to physics in Mass Effect because they're not the same.

That those physics are based on actual physics with clearly delineated deviations provides a framework to compare the setting's physics with the real world if we so chose, but oddly enough, it isn't even necessary because the setting has already contradicted itself.

No, I haven't been saying that at all, that is your childish attempt to twist my words into something they are not to continue this argument.


How the FFFF is anything Dark energy related based on real life physics when WE DON'T KNOW HOW DARK ENERGY ACTUALLY WORKS?

there is NOTHING about Dark Energy as it is used in Mass effect and how it is in real life that connect the two besides name.

Starke, just stop. You're right, he's wrong. He's just going to keep trolling you. I got caught in it before until I realized he was trying to get a rise out of me. SajuukKhar's just messing with you, you ca tell by the way his sentences don't actually make proper sense.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Starke, just stop. You're right, he's wrong. He's just going to keep trolling you. I got caught in it before until I realized he was trying to get a rise out of me. SajuukKhar's just messing with you, you ca tell by the way his sentences don't actually make proper sense.

Yes because saying that the dark energy based pulse wave in Mass effect isn't illogical because we know nothing about how dark energy works, when the other person entire argument was based off of "Mass effect is similar enough to our own galaxy's laws of physics that it should stay close to them" doesn't make sense?

I cant tell if you really believe what you say or not?

Also learn what trolling means, trolling is the deliberate attempt to get people angry, which I am not.

I am just trying to understand how you can fault one thing for not being like the other when the two things were unlike to being with.

I really want to understand that logic because it really makes no sense. You could compare two similar things like star Trek and Mass Effect and see how they are similar and how they contradict but you cant say Mass effect is "illogical" because it doesn't follow star Treks logic even if they had used similar logic up until that point.

 

[nightwolf667]

I agree, the Relays used to be able to stand up to some serious punishment. It's assumed that they've been around for millions, potentially billions of years, you'd think some of them might get blown up over the millennia. Though I suppose the Reapers could always build more of them.

I believe it's implied that they do, in the Synthesis ending anyway. But the whole thing is very unclear, either way it's an inexcusable way to end it. Mass Effect wanted to be more like movies and novels, so they get to be held to the same standards. The ending was a non-ending, nothing we say will really make it better.

But we can mock it, mockery will soothe our souls.

With the Reaper corpses, I suppose the in-universe logic is that the Space Magic makes them all super-extra-special-dead, to the point that the indoctrination signal can't even function anymore. That, or the derelict reaper in ME2 was only mostly dead.

Maybe, like I said it's really unclear. In the control ending, it's implied that Shep forced the Reapers back into Dark Space, but will Shepard's control wane in the next 50,000 years? If so, what does that mean for the Reaper corpses? There are still quite a few of them littered about. We already have the Batarian one and the Mass Effect 2 one being in the "mostly" dead/stasis still capable of indoctrination category. The destruction ending didn't really imply any different, or they never showed how it was different.

I suppose a few machine cults will rise following the catastrophe. Warhammer 40k ahoy!

On the subject of Hungry Hungry Krogans (which should totally be a game now)

We need a mini-game, the Hungry Hungry Krogans: in which the general krogan population runs around a battlescarred, blown out earth, chomping down on the helpless survivors and occasionally running into trouble with the turian military (double points on the chomp!). It could be a new horde mode.

all of the ships still have FTL drives, and it's assumed that colonization can sorta-maybe terraform planets, so I'm sure the allied fleets can either head home (maybe taking 10+ years) or set up a colony near earth. The krogans managed to live without starving to death before they god space flight, they should be fine.

Yeah, probably. The entirety of Earth's civilization will probably need a new home too. I doubt the planet's all that liveable, if it did survive. (No real evidence that it did, or the Starchild thing was "all a dream". If we take the "Shepard survives!" ending at face value, of course.)

I still feel they were wrong to kill Shepard off, they'd already done it in ME2. They don't get to do it "for realz this time"! You only get one real shot, otherwise you make it a running gag, and a gag is the last thing any good writer should want their ending to be. A character that does not have an immortality clause by nature of their own existence, doesn't really get to die that many times. Anyway as a character in a video game, Shepard can die many times on accident or for intentional hilarity, death has less meaning here than it does in novels or movies.

 

[Starke]

Starke, just stop. You're right, he's wrong. He's just going to keep trolling you. I got caught in it before until I realized he was trying to get a rise out of me. SajuukKhar's just messing with you, you ca tell by the way his sentences don't actually make proper sense.

Honestly, it gets pretty hard to delineate and say "this is a troll, that is not," sometimes. On this site, where we have so many English as a second language members, saying the grammar's shoddy is a pretty unreliable means of identifying a troll, or he could just be a product of the American education system, but that's a soapbox for another day.

If it's any consolation: he's not close to getting a rise out of me, and I've got little else to do today except wait for a phone call.

No, I haven't been saying that at all, that is your childish attempt to twist my words into something they are not to continue this argument.


How the FFFF is anything Dark energy related based on real life physics when WE DON'T KNOW HOW DARK ENERGY ACTUALLY WORKS?

there is NOTHING about Dark Energy as it is used in Mass effect and how it is in real life that connect the two besides name.

Well, I hadn't been talking about dark energy at all, just about energy in general. But, come to think of it we do know something about dark energy from Mass Effect: It kills entire solar systems.

So, I suppose it's possible that it would only extinguish every solar system with a mass relay over the next century or two, if not every star in a cluster connected to a mass relay. Meaning the possibility of being exterminated in galactic relay detonations would have actually been a kinder fate.

Instead the handful of survivors of the reaper war could conceivably live to see their own civilizations dying slowly in a galaxy where nearly every star is extinguishing.

Yes because saying that the dark energy based pulse wave in Mass effect isn't illogical because we know nothing about how dark energy works, when the other person entire argument was based off of "Mass effect is similar enough to our own galaxy's laws of physics that it should stay close to them" doesn't make sense?

I cant tell if you really believe what you say or not?

No, the issue is way back when, in the long ago year of 2007, Mass Effect set itself up as a hardish' sci-fi setting. This is especially prominent in the Codex, which went into excruciating detail to explain things like: the infinite weapon ammo, personal shields, biotic abilities, faster than light travel, and many other setting elements, within the context of actual laws of physics.

In case you're fuzzy on the concept, "hard sci-fi" refers to science fiction that is intended to be scientifically plausible. Mass Effect uses Element Zero to cheat on a number of normal aspects of physics, but ultimately, the point is to create something with scientific verisimilitude.

To be fair, Mass Effect stumbles on the hardness approach, in large part due to element zero itself, and also due to flat out shoddy writing, but that's the direction it set itself in.

Also learn what trolling means, trolling is the deliberate attempt to get people angry, which I am not.

I'd say "one seeking to provoke personal schadenfreude" would be a more accurate definition.

I am just trying to understand how you can fault one thing for not being like the other when the two things were unlike to being with.

I really want to understand that logic because it really makes no sense. You could compare two similar things like star Trek and Mass Effect and see how they are similar and how they contradict but you cant say Mass effect is "illogical" because it doesn't follow star Treks logic even if they had used similar logic up until that point.

And that's where you're missing the point. I'm not comparing Mass Effect to the science Star Trek, or Bablyon 5, or Battlestar Galactica, or Farscape, or any of a load of other, much better, science fiction stories.

I'm comparing Mass Effect to two things. I'm comparing Mass Effect, specifically the ending to what Mass Effect was in previous iterations of the series, and what Mass Effect wanted to be. Both are legitimate analyses, and honestly far more sympathetic to the ending than it deserves on it's own merits.

 

[Vegosiux]

No, the issue is way back when, in the long ago year of 2007, Mass Effect set itself up as a hardish' sci-fi setting. This is especially prominent in the Codex, which went into excruciating detail to explain things like: the infinite weapon ammo, personal shields, biotic abilities, faster than light travel, and many other setting elements, within the context of actual laws of physics.

Not to mention the positions of planets in our system have actually been accurately calculated and presented in the galaxy map for the date on which the game was supposed to start. I forget the excact date, but the planetary positions are accurate.

And yes, that's would make a deus ex machina ending all the more galling.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

Actually we know Dark energy destroys solar systems when the containment unit is suddenly shattered before the energy can be channeled out as seen in Arrival.

However what happens at the end of Mass effect 3 is a completely different situation in that the energy is purposefully focused and used to create a "magic" pulse that gets fire off before the relay breaks apart.

Two entirely different situations you are trying to say will have the same result.

And based on your admitted use of element Zero to maggufin things dark energy related, and the fact that the two relay explosions happened in entirely different situations, why do you think that the relays would destroy anything at all?

Case 1, aka Arrvial, had the energy containment unit shattered and the energy had nowhere to go
Case 2, aka Me3, had all the energy deliberately channeled out into a pulse before the relays fell apart

They are different situations, with different outcomes, with each outcome consistent with what is presented in-game.

 

[Starke]

However what happens at the end of Mass effect 3 is a completely different situation in that the energy is purposefully focused and used to create a "magic" pulse that gets fire off before the relay breaks apart.

Two entirely different situations you are trying to say will have the same result.

Two cases, yes, but Arival isn't one of them. Anyway, you made my point for me. The utterly random bullshit pulse. If it doesn't fuck things up irrevocably, it's idiotic space magic and unworthy of the series to date. If it does, it does, and while while bleak, the ending's already irredeemably stupid.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Two cases, yes, but Arival isn't one of them. Anyway, you made my point for me. The utterly random bullshit pulse. If it doesn't fuck things up irrevocably, it's idiotic space magic and unworthy of the series to date. If it does, it does, and while while bleak, the ending's already irredeemably stupid.

Except it isn't any closer to "space magic" then biotic powers are because dark energy was always stupidly ill-defined and had been used whenever they needed something before.

If the energy pulse isn't worthy of Me3 then either is ANYTHING dark energy/ezero related because it is all ill-defined maguffin.

 

[Zacharius Kioussis]

ý1.) ending sucked and did not mesh with the ME story and style ooh glowing child space god ooh pick one of these doors to decide the whole game... could have just gave us those 10 min and would have had the same ending as if we did play all 3 full games
2.) ending even if acceptable(not good but acceptable) as a standalone does not fit in with the ME history
3.) choices are suppose to matter... and im not talking about 1 choice at the end... we are suppose to decide much of the fight throughout the game,
4.) fill in plotholes, such as why the hell didnt the relays go nova like in the arrival or why not nova the earth relay and take out the main reaper forces including thier leadership (hows that for a bittersweet ending shepherd has to sacrafice humanities homeworld to save the universe including all the human colonies)
5.) I can accept the survival being decided by readiness but saying i lived or died is not an epilogue.. whathappens to everyone , especially my romance who i dragged through 3 game, what happens to earth, do all the races die without the relay because they cant eat earth food(i know krogans at least needed it shipped withthem )
6.) Bioware your rep as a company is shot, if you want to survive you should remedy the situation

- instead of making storydriven, immersive rpg you have moved on to generic action games

-ex DAO then in DA2 story and rpg removed(in order to appeal ot the mainsteam shooter crowd, like that worked lol if im not mistaken the sales for DA1 were better... least its reception was) , ME then in ME2 much rpg removed then in ME3 choice driven story removed(oh and multiplayer added... and who uses it well no one in fact you have to hold contests and bribe us with stuff to get us to use it), SWKOTOR then in SWTOR same game essentialy although choice is removed with some new content(oh and a subscription fee tacked on for a game that is essentialy single player)

If you want to to keep your customers fix the track you are upon, you thrived by being the only company to offer immersive choice driven stories, inside a beatifully illustrated and crafted rpg .... Now you make generic shooters that still have some story but have no choice and thus 1 generic story line and have fallen from thier rpg roots

 

[Starke]

Two cases, yes, but Arival isn't one of them. Anyway, you made my point for me. The utterly random bullshit pulse. If it doesn't fuck things up irrevocably, it's idiotic space magic and unworthy of the series to date. If it does, it does, and while while bleak, the ending's already irredeemably stupid.

Except it isn't any closer to "space magic" then biotic powers are because dark energy was always stupidly ill-defined and had been used whenever they needed something before.

If the energy pulse isn't worthy of Me3 then either is ANYTHING dark energy/ezero related because it is all ill-defined maguffin.

That word you are using (MacGuffin), I do not think it means what you think it does, nor is it spelled the way you think it is.

Dark Energy has always been weirdish random bullshit in the setting, but it has operated under somewhat predictable rules, moreover it had never been a MacGuffin prior to Mass Effect 2, and there only as a peripheral mystery, not as a random ass, magical deus ex machina.

This would be sort of like getting into the final act of Return of the King, where Gandalf suddenly shows up without warning or explanation and then destroys the one ring with a thunderbolt.

You know, exactly what happened, or, you know, not quite.

 

[endtherapture]

Two cases, yes, but Arival isn't one of them. Anyway, you made my point for me. The utterly random bullshit pulse. If it doesn't fuck things up irrevocably, it's idiotic space magic and unworthy of the series to date. If it does, it does, and while while bleak, the ending's already irredeemably stupid.

Except it isn't any closer to "space magic" then biotic powers are because dark energy was always stupidly ill-defined and had been used whenever they needed something before.

If the energy pulse isn't worthy of Me3 then either is ANYTHING dark energy/ezero related because it is all ill-defined maguffin.

That word you are using (MacGuffin), I do not think it means what you think it does, nor is it spelled the way you think it is.

Dark Energy has always been weirdish random bullshit in the setting, but it has operated under somewhat predictable rules, moreover it had never been a MacGuffin prior to Mass Effect 2, and there only as a peripheral mystery, not as a random ass, magical deus ex machina.

This would be sort of like getting into the final act of Return of the King, where Gandalf suddenly shows up without warning or explanation and then destroys the one ring with a thunderbolt.

You know, exactly what happened, or, you know, not quite.

Dark Energy wouldnt' have been as much of a MacGuffin as the Crucible was - it was foreshadowed in Tali's recruitment mission in Mass Effect 2.

MacGuffins are generally kinda acceptable in sci-fi, loads of my favourite sci-fi series have them - for example Stargate with it's convienient "ancient superweapon" to destroy the Goa'uld/Wraith/Ori/Replicators whenever they want. Doesn't stop it being awesome.

The Macguffin (Crucible) ended up as a Deus Ex Machina though (the Starchild). Deus Ex Machinas are shit.

 

[quiet_samurai]

WHY ARE WE NOT PRAISING THEM FOR BREAKING THE TIRED OLD FORMULA? SUBVERTING OUR EXPECTATIONS OF A FORMULAIC ENDING IS A GOOD THING FOR IT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE REALIZED THEIR MISTAKES.

WHYYYYYYYYYYY

Agreed, the gaming community is constantly bitching about how nothing is original anymore and calling out for something different..... then they get it and can't stop whining about how it wasn't what they would have expected or wanted... and start a petition to have additional content made that gives them just a tired old cliche ending.

Make up your fucking minds already.....

 

[Kahunaburger]

WHY ARE WE NOT PRAISING THEM FOR BREAKING THE TIRED OLD FORMULA? SUBVERTING OUR EXPECTATIONS OF A FORMULAIC ENDING IS A GOOD THING FOR IT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE REALIZED THEIR MISTAKES.

WHYYYYYYYYYYY

Agreed, the gaming community is constantly bitching about how nothing is original anymore and calling out for something different..... then they get it and can't stop whining about how it wasn't what they would have expected or wanted... and start a petition to have additional content made that gives them just a tired old cliche ending.

Make up your fucking minds already.....

I think they want something different and well-written. Just a guess.