Dragon Age Origins Lead Designer speaks out against ME3 Ending

[endtherapture]

Nah it's more like "you have just destroyed a race of evil machines hell bent on genocide and have condemned the combined races of the galaxy to civil war, cannibalism, death, and a technological dark age".

Except nothing at all in the game even suggest that they would go into a civil war/cannibalism. that is just something fans made up to make the game seem more bleaker then it is to hate on Bioware some more.

Also the only technology that would be destroyed is Reaper based technology, and the civilizations of the galaxy were fare more advanced then we were before they found the Mass-relays. So if having a slightly lowered technological bar, which by comparison is better then us, for a short time while they rebuild is so bad then the world as-is must be unlivable.

I'm pretty sure we all know the lore of Mass Effect. Travel between star clusters is now impossible because ships have to land on a planet/atmosphere/space station to discharge the charge built up in their engines. It will require great technological leaps. I'm not sure how the scientists are going to make these leaps in technology when mostly, they'll be struggling just to survive.

You saw Earth, you went to it in the game. It was burned and blackened and on fire. I couldn't see any plants, and it looked nothing like Earth, just some black burnt planet. There was no sunlight getting onto the ground. It was like the world of the Matrix. How that's going to support the rest of the humans left alive, plus all the surviving forces of the giant galactic armada, I'm not sure. Maybe you could tell me?

 

[SajuukKhar]

I'm pretty sure we all know the lore of Mass Effect. Travel between star clusters is now impossible because ships have to land on a planet/atmosphere/space station to discharge the charge built up in their engines. It will require great technological leaps. I'm not sure how the scientists are going to make these leaps in technology when mostly, they'll be struggling just to survive.

You saw Earth, you went to it in the game. It was burned and blackened and on fire. I couldn't see any plants, and it looked nothing like Earth, just some black burnt planet. There was no sunlight getting onto the ground. It was like the world of the Matrix. How that's going to support the rest of the humans left alive, plus all the surviving forces of the giant galactic armada, I'm not sure. Maybe you could tell me?

Actually the lore states they discharge in orbit not by landing. Beyond that a world in a desperate situation and still making technological advancement isn't anywhere near unfeasible and has been done in many game series, Half-Life 2 for starters.

We went to London, one, very small, part of earth, which was also one of, if not the most, attacked/besieged part of Earth. The condition of the rest of Earth is totally unknown.

Furthermore unlike the Matrix The Rapers didn't initiate a self-replication dust cloud whose sole intent was to block out the sun, it will go away.

Beyond that the human race as survived ice-ages and super-volcano eruptions that killed off most of the human species at the time. We have survived worse and have become better for it.

 

[Jaeke]

He actually has a point. When 99% of Mass Effect is a formulaic save-the-galaxy space opera, a ending that is inconsistent with that is going to come off as incongruous. Those endings worked in Deus Ex because they made sense in the context of the game's story, themes, and mood.

WHY ARE WE NOT PRAISING THEM FOR BREAKING THE TIRED OLD FORMULA? SUBVERTING OUR EXPECTATIONS OF A FORMULAIC ENDING IS A GOOD THING FOR IT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE REALIZED THEIR MISTAKES.

WHYYYYYYYYYYY

The ending of DA:O was a hell of a lot better than the ending of ME3 which tried to be crazy and philosophical and clver but just ended up ruining everything.

You mean when you fight a lot of Darkspawn then WITH THE POWER OF THE CHOSEN ONE you kill some dragon?

Yeah, it sure was great.

No the one where you fight through the legions of the impending "blight" with the friends that you have gathered and fought along side the darkest places of hell, literaly, through demons and abominations, through corrupt corpses risen by forbidden magic, through long lost ruins of a broken kingdom, in the farthest reaches of the wilds against vengeful monsters; struggling to form alliances and bonds to stop these armies, only to make the sacrifice that no one else can against an Old God.

 

[endtherapture]

I'm pretty sure we all know the lore of Mass Effect. Travel between star clusters is now impossible because ships have to land on a planet/atmosphere/space station to discharge the charge built up in their engines. It will require great technological leaps. I'm not sure how the scientists are going to make these leaps in technology when mostly, they'll be struggling just to survive.

You saw Earth, you went to it in the game. It was burned and blackened and on fire. I couldn't see any plants, and it looked nothing like Earth, just some black burnt planet. There was no sunlight getting onto the ground. It was like the world of the Matrix. How that's going to support the rest of the humans left alive, plus all the surviving forces of the giant galactic armada, I'm not sure. Maybe you could tell me?

Actually the lore states they discharge in orbit not by landing. Beyond that a world in a desperate situation and still making technological advancement isn't anywhere near unfeasible and has been done in many game series, Half-Life 2 for starters.

We went to London, one, very small, part of earth, which was also one of, if not the most, attacked/besieged part of Earth. The condition of the rest of Earth is totally unknown.

Furthermore unlike the Matrix The Rapers didn't initiate a self-replication dust cloud whose sole intent was to block out the sun, it will go away.

Beyond that the human race as survived ice-ages and super-volcano eruptions that killed off most of the human species at the time. We have survived worse and have become better for it.

How will we survive. There's billions of hungry aliens up in orbit around Earth who could easily take over the planet to use as a food source. We can barely support ourselves right now in time, let alone support a completely ravaged planet with billions of aliens in orbit who will want to use the Earth to live on and cultivate food. Resources are limited and there WILL be conflict over that, especially as all the Reapers have gone so there is no uniting force. Just look at the state of the present day world.

The dust cloud will go away in time yes, but doesn't help if all of the plants die in that period of time due to lack of light, thus meaning nothing for anyone to eat and the slow extinction of life on Earth.

 

[Jaeke]

I'm not a fan of LotR, and I don't think hypothetical alternative endings are a good comparison. I also don't like the ending of DA:O particularly; I felt the whole "dark ritual" was a bloody cop-out. You don't play BioWare games for the endings.

Well, hopefully if in DA3 it is a major part of the story it turns out to not by a cop-out.

But i have low-hopes.

 

[GloatingSwine]

A depressing ending to a video game can work only if it's one of several others, or you have a helluva writing talent. Shit, even Max Payne 2 had a better ending if you finished it on the hardest difficulty.

A depressing ending to a videogame can work if it's thematically appropriate to the game it is the ending to.

I mean Nier has four different endings, and they're all depressing (hell, one of them, the most final of all the endings, has Nier himself be erased from history as if he had never existed, and to underpin the finality of this the game deletes all your saves, but the general narrative theme is one of alienation, despair, and hopelessness, so all of the endings are satisfying endings to Nier.

If the story of Shepard had been a catalogue of grimdark, if she'd had to corrupt the genophage and doom the Krogan, watch one or other of the Geth and Quarians exterminate each other, and still only just have enough to force the final assault on Earth, then an ending where you pay the terrible cost of destroying the foundation of galactic civilisation to save the people it contains might be thematically appropriate, and that is one possible route by which Shepard can arrive at the final choice.

But that's not every Shepard's story, some will have been able to rally everyone through force of personality and consistently doing the right thing by everyone and build an armada to shake the heavens themselves. That Shepard's story is not thematically well served by a depressing ending, and someone who played that Shepard has every right to point to the ending they did get and say "that ending sucks".

 

[NKRevan]

I'm pretty sure we all know the lore of Mass Effect. Travel between star clusters is now impossible because ships have to land on a planet/atmosphere/space station to discharge the charge built up in their engines. It will require great technological leaps. I'm not sure how the scientists are going to make these leaps in technology when mostly, they'll be struggling just to survive.

You saw Earth, you went to it in the game. It was burned and blackened and on fire. I couldn't see any plants, and it looked nothing like Earth, just some black burnt planet. There was no sunlight getting onto the ground. It was like the world of the Matrix. How that's going to support the rest of the humans left alive, plus all the surviving forces of the giant galactic armada, I'm not sure. Maybe you could tell me?

Actually the lore states they discharge in orbit not by landing. Beyond that a world in a desperate situation and still making technological advancement isn't anywhere near unfeasible and has been done in many game series, Half-Life 2 for starters.

We went to London, one, very small, part of earth, which was also one of, if not the most, attacked/besieged part of Earth. The condition of the rest of Earth is totally unknown.

Furthermore unlike the Matrix The Rapers didn't initiate a self-replication dust cloud whose sole intent was to block out the sun, it will go away.

Beyond that the human race as survived ice-ages and super-volcano eruptions that killed off most of the human species at the time. We have survived worse and have become better for it.

How will we survive. There's billions of hungry aliens up in orbit around Earth who could easily take over the planet to use as a food source. We can barely support ourselves right now in time, let alone support a completely ravaged planet with billions of aliens in orbit who will want to use the Earth to live on and cultivate food. Resources are limited and there WILL be conflict over that, especially as all the Reapers have gone so there is no uniting force. Just look at the state of the present day world.

The dust cloud will go away in time yes, but doesn't help if all of the plants die in that period of time due to lack of light, thus meaning nothing for anyone to eat and the slow extinction of life on Earth.

Why does everyone conveniently forget that FTL travel is still perfectly viable and gets you through the entire galaxy in just 28 years, to a nearby system in a much much shorter time?

Why does everyone forget that the Normandy can still use Quantum Communications to radio for help and probably expect it to arrive within a few weeks, given that they never really went that far away (the ending indicated they used FTL to try to get away, not a Relay so wherever they crashed, it can't be that far away.

Why does everyone forget that Species now have a shining example of what can be accomplished if they work together and why would they stop now, when there is so much to rebuild. Sure, petty rivalries may break out again, but in the meantime, we have the shining example of Shepard to go on. Or she/he may still be alive to keep the factions in line (if you got the 5k+ ending).

And why does everyone forget that the DEM was foreshadowed throughout the game? The fact the species are building it up since countless millenia. The things the Prothean VI says about something else possibly controlling the Reapers etc.?

Don't get me wrong, I found a couple of plotholes in the ending. And they seem a lot more rushed than the other 98% of the game, which makes me a bit sad.

But this whole, the Galactic Civilization is doomed thing is just ridiculous.

 

[SajuukKhar]

How will we survive. There's billions of hungry aliens up in orbit around Earth who could easily take over the planet to use as a food source. We can barely support ourselves right now in time, let alone support a completely ravaged planet with billions of aliens in orbit who will want to use the Earth to live on and cultivate food. Resources are limited and there WILL be conflict over that, especially as all the Reapers have gone so there is no uniting force. Just look at the state of the present day world.

The dust cloud will go away in time yes, but doesn't help if all of the plants die in that period of time due to lack of light, thus meaning nothing for anyone to eat and the slow extinction of life on Earth.

1. There isn't even remotely 1 billion aliens, let alone billions, in orbit, nice hyperbole.

2. If you have the Geth, then they wouldn't effect anything since they don't need food. If you have the Quarrians, the damage is mitigated because they have live ships designed to grow more food. If you have both..... then still.

3. Many, and i do mean MANY, of those aliens wouldn't be recoverable.

4. A large portion of our supposed inability to support yourself now is due to the fact large tracts of usable lands around the world are being sat on by people who bought them or they are being pillaged constantly by warlords. We could easily support ourselves as we are now if those people were removed.

5. Ice age, humans have survived it. Volcanic dust cloud blocking out the sun, humans have survived it.

 

[m72_ar]

I don't agree with the 2nd point. and remembering how easy increasing your the galactic readiness is. You really have to try to fail

But I wholeheartedly agree with the 1st point.
Bioware can make depressing ending but dammit I want to know how my decision affects the galaxy

 

[GloatingSwine]

No the one where you fight through the legions of the impending "blight" with the friends that you have gathered and fought along side the darkest places of hell, literaly, through demons and abominations, through corrupt corpses risen by forbidden magic, through long lost ruins of a broken kingdom, in the farthest reaches of the wilds against vengeful monsters; struggling to form alliances and bonds to stop these armies, only to make the sacrifice that no one else can against an Old God.

I prefer the one where you confront a fallen hero of the realm, force him to realise that whilst his motives may have been justified his actions in pursuit of them were wholly wrong, and give him the chance to redeem himself via sacrifice.

 

[kasperbbs]

I kinda agree with him, i did everything and i mean everything i could to get the best possible ending, i recruited everyone i could, found all the technology and so on, but in the end it doesn't really matter, i still die and normandy crashlands god knows where, then some old man talks with his kid. I would rather have DA:O style ending that explains what my actions have caused.

 

[endtherapture]

How will we survive. There's billions of hungry aliens up in orbit around Earth who could easily take over the planet to use as a food source. We can barely support ourselves right now in time, let alone support a completely ravaged planet with billions of aliens in orbit who will want to use the Earth to live on and cultivate food. Resources are limited and there WILL be conflict over that, especially as all the Reapers have gone so there is no uniting force. Just look at the state of the present day world.

The dust cloud will go away in time yes, but doesn't help if all of the plants die in that period of time due to lack of light, thus meaning nothing for anyone to eat and the slow extinction of life on Earth.

1. There isn't even remotely 1 billion aliens, let alone billions, in orbit, nice hyperbole.

2. If you have the Geth, then they wouldn't effect anything since they don't need food. If you have the Quarrians, the damage is mitigated because they have live ships designed to grow more food. If you have both..... then still.

3. Many, and i do mean MANY, of those aliens wouldn't be recoverable.

4. A large portion of our supposed inability to support yourself now is due to the fact large tracts of usable lands around the world are being sat on by people who bought them or they are being pillaged constantly by warlords. We could easily support ourselves as we are now if those people were removed.

5. Ice age, humans have survived it. Volcanic dust cloud blocking out the sun, humans have survived it.

Whatever. Here's another reason why there is no hope in the ending

It's discussed in-game how the Reapers destroyed Earth's Comm Buoys early into the conflict, meaning that people in the Sol System had almost no way of communicating with the rest of the galaxy, save a few Quantum Entanglers. Earth, the Capital of the System Alliance and one of the wealthier planets in the galaxy, only had a handful of Quantum Entanglers. It's safe to say that Quantum Entanglers on other planets are a rarity.

Thus the ending of Mass Effect 3, doesn't just mean the end of Intragalactic travel but also with some exception Intragalactic communication. The ramifications of which haven't been fully discussed.

Take notice, the destruction of the relays was an almost instantaneous event across the galaxy. Even if you weren't wiped out, if you had a view of the relay from your planet, you just saw it explode. And then a wave of light bathe your planet. And then... silence.

Unless you were on one of the major capitals of the galaxy, there is now no way to communicate quickly with anyone outside your starcluster. The extranet is likely down on all worlds. And for the people on these colonies there will be no explanation for any of this, not now, maybe not ever.

What does that mean?
1- The entire galaxy outside Sol and maybe a few other major planets that are linked to Sol with Quantum Entaglers are now entirely in the dark. They don't know what happened to the fleets, their people, or to the Crucible. They just saw their only means of intragalatic travel explode in front of their eyes with no explanation except a flash of light. They don't even know if they were the only ones to lose their mass relays.
2- Assuming they were already fighting the Reapers, they see the Reapers die/leave, and perhaps they rejoice, for a while, until the inevitable questions set in: "Are they all gone?", "Were the Mass Relays destroyed everywhere or just here", "Will they return?", "Were the allied fleets successful?", "Are they ever coming home?". The questioning leads to panic. Panic leads to things like "pre-emptively nuking all of your cities so the Reapers don't come back for you"
3- Assuming they weren't fighting the Reapers already. The mass relay exploded and they have no idea who did it or why. They don't even know the Reapers are dead. Enhance the ensuing panic ten-fold. There is absolutely no indication that the Repears aren't going to attack ay any possible moment. Indeed the fact is that the entire galaxy is now silent outside your starcluster is only going to enhance the fear and panic.
4- Assuming the Synthesis ending was picked, the wave of light also simultaneously turned everyone into... whatever the hell the Synthesis ending turns people into (I'm sorry if you like it, but that's the most convulted ending I've ever heard of), so now you're a robot/human/shepard/turian/something-or-other and so is everyone else on the planet. The Reapers again leave. And you're left with the same questions but also "How the hell did I just get turned into a robot?", "Is this for real?", "Which bathroom do I use now?" and more.

 

[NKRevan]

How will we survive. There's billions of hungry aliens up in orbit around Earth who could easily take over the planet to use as a food source. We can barely support ourselves right now in time, let alone support a completely ravaged planet with billions of aliens in orbit who will want to use the Earth to live on and cultivate food. Resources are limited and there WILL be conflict over that, especially as all the Reapers have gone so there is no uniting force. Just look at the state of the present day world.

The dust cloud will go away in time yes, but doesn't help if all of the plants die in that period of time due to lack of light, thus meaning nothing for anyone to eat and the slow extinction of life on Earth.

1. There isn't even remotely 1 billion aliens, let alone billions, in orbit, nice hyperbole.

2. If you have the Geth, then they wouldn't effect anything since they don't need food. If you have the Quarrians, the damage is mitigated because they have live ships designed to grow more food. If you have both..... then still.

3. Many, and i do mean MANY, of those aliens wouldn't be recoverable.

4. A large portion of our supposed inability to support yourself now is due to the fact large tracts of usable lands around the world are being sat on by people who bought them or they are being pillaged constantly by warlords. We could easily support ourselves as we are now if those people were removed.

5. Ice age, humans have survived it. Volcanic dust cloud blocking out the sun, humans have survived it.

Whatever. Here's another reason why there is no hope in the ending

It's discussed in-game how the Reapers destroyed Earth's Comm Buoys early into the conflict, meaning that people in the Sol System had almost no way of communicating with the rest of the galaxy, save a few Quantum Entanglers. Earth, the Capital of the System Alliance and one of the wealthier planets in the galaxy, only had a handful of Quantum Entanglers. It's safe to say that Quantum Entanglers on other planets are a rarity.

Thus the ending of Mass Effect 3, doesn't just mean the end of Intragalactic travel but also with some exception Intragalactic communication. The ramifications of which haven't been fully discussed.

Take notice, the destruction of the relays was an almost instantaneous event across the galaxy. Even if you weren't wiped out, if you had a view of the relay from your planet, you just saw it explode. And then a wave of light bathe your planet. And then... silence.

Unless you were on one of the major capitals of the galaxy, there is now no way to communicate quickly with anyone outside your starcluster. The extranet is likely down on all worlds. And for the people on these colonies there will be no explanation for any of this, not now, maybe not ever.

What does that mean?
1- The entire galaxy outside Sol and maybe a few other major planets that are linked to Sol with Quantum Entaglers are now entirely in the dark. They don't know what happened to the fleets, their people, or to the Crucible. They just saw their only means of intragalatic travel explode in front of their eyes with no explanation except a flash of light. They don't even know if they were the only ones to lose their mass relays.
2- Assuming they were already fighting the Reapers, they see the Reapers die/leave, and perhaps they rejoice, for a while, until the inevitable questions set in: "Are they all gone?", "Were the Mass Relays destroyed everywhere or just here", "Will they return?", "Were the allied fleets successful?", "Are they ever coming home?". The questioning leads to panic. Panic leads to things like "pre-emptively nuking all of your cities so the Reapers don't come back for you"
3- Assuming they weren't fighting the Reapers already. The mass relay exploded and they have no idea who did it or why. They don't even know the Reapers are dead. Enhance the ensuing panic ten-fold. There is absolutely no indication that the Repears aren't going to attack ay any possible moment. Indeed the fact is that the entire galaxy is now silent outside your starcluster is only going to enhance the fear and panic.
4- Assuming the Synthesis ending was picked, the wave of light also simultaneously turned everyone into... whatever the hell the Synthesis ending turns people into (I'm sorry if you like it, but that's the most convulted ending I've ever heard of), so now you're a robot/human/shepard/turian/something-or-other and so is everyone else on the planet. The Reapers again leave. And you're left with the same questions but also "How the hell did I just get turned into a robot?", "Is this for real?", "Which bathroom do I use now?" and more.

For the last time, Intergalactic travel is not gone. It just takes longer.

Geeze. As if that would destroy the universe. -.-

 

[SajuukKhar]

For the last time, Intergalactic travel is not gone. It just takes longer.

Geeze. As if that would destroy the universe. -.-

IKR

I dont understand this "unless everything is as it was or better then it was when the game started there must be no hope" sentiment comes from. It is highly illogical and doesn't fit with facts at all.

Everyone acts like it is 100% impossible to gain back what we lost, that if we take a step back we can never go forward again, that there can only be forward progress or extinction, when life isn't like that, and never has been, in the slightest.

 

[NKRevan]

For the last time, Intergalactic travel is not gone. It just takes longer.

Geeze. As if that would destroy the universe. -.-

IKR

I dont understand this "unless everything is as it was or better then it was when the game started there must be no hope" sentiment comes from. It is highly illogical and doesn't fit with facts at all.

Everyone acts like it is 100% impossible to gain back what we lost, that if we take a step back we can never go forward again, that there can only be forward progress or extinction, when life isn't like that, and never has been, in the slightest.

Exactly.

Now what I do agree with from the camp of haters, is that ME3 deserved a text-style wrap up. Have all the important decisions you made explained and told what the result was. Like...The Rachni remained peaceful and helped with their songs. Wrex died a warriors death, but his children went on to become great warriors.

Blah...such stuff, you know. I wouldn't mind that, in fact I would like it.

But it doesn't make the "THEGALAXYISDOOMED" people any less silly.

 

[wintercoat]

For the last time, Intergalactic travel is not gone. It just takes longer.

Geeze. As if that would destroy the universe. -.-

IKR

I dont understand this "unless everything is as it was or better then it was when the game started there must be no hope" sentiment comes from. It is highly illogical and doesn't fit with facts at all.

Everyone acts like it is 100% impossible to gain back what we lost, that if we take a step back we can never go forward again, that there can only be forward progress or extinction, when life isn't like that, and never has been, in the slightest.

Exactly.

Now what I do agree with from the camp of haters, is that ME3 deserved a text-style wrap up. Have all the important decisions you made explained and told what the result was. Like...The Rachni remained peaceful and helped with their songs. Wrex died a warriors death, but his children went on to become great warriors.

Blah...such stuff, you know. I wouldn't mind that, in fact I would like it.

But it doesn't make the "THEGALAXYISDOOMED" people any less silly.

Not doomed, but definitely severely crippled.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

This is why we cannot have nice things, for we set up these absurd rules for video-games that only serve to permeate clichés and tired tropes, such as the Hollywood-esque notion that a movie (or in this case, Video-games) should only have happy-endings.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

This explains why DA:O was so goddamn stale and bland, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO HAVE AN EVIL DARK FORCE THAT THREATENS TO CONSUME THE LAND AND ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN SAVE US.

Jesus balls, this is the stupidest thing I have ever read, its people like him that are the reason why 90% of all RPGs have derivative-as-shit stories and character archetypes.

I totally agree with you. I couldn't stand DA:O because of how bland it was and how outdated its mechanics were. The party characters were cliche drek, and most the same cliche. Most of them were the cliche of closed off asshole, who at some point because you "show them the way" change to better themselves.

That is why I loved DA2. I actually liked the characters because they were different from each other in personality and for the most part I couldn't change the core of who they were. Varric stayed a wisecracking joker, Merrill will always be somewhat naive, Aveline the stalwart guard with with a heart of gold, etc, etc. Granted that even their characters were in their own ways cliche, but they were different from each other, which made it refreshing.

I don't agree with him at all, actually.
It didn't need a happy ending. It could have ended bleak as hell and worked. Most of Mass Effect 3 had incredibly bleak tone behind it and I loved the game right up to the end. It needed to be more character-based (because this is a character-based series). We care about what happens to Garrus, Liara, and everyone. It didn't need some poorly-implented space magic. And if Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, it doesn't need to be "just because". Knowles is missing the point.

I agree with you as well. I think there really are too many games that resort to happy endings to make the player feel like they accomplish something.

I tend to remember games better, if they mix in depressing and happy. I remember them even better if the ending is more of a sweet but also with a sour note. The kind where you may have saved the day...but at what cost?

 

[SajuukKhar]

Not doomed, but definitely severely crippled.

Which is an exceedingly temporary state.

 

[wintercoat]

Not doomed, but definitely severely crippled.

Which is an exceedingly temporary state.

Until someone figures out how to make new Relays, which I doubt would be any time soon. Trade is near impossible when it takes you 3-5 years to travel between systems.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Until someone figures out how to make new Relays, which I doubt would be any time soon. Trade is near impossible when it takes you 3-5 years to travel between systems.

The Protheans did it with only a handful of researchers.