DRM, Censorship, you brought it on yourselves.

[Mizaki]

A good bunch of people have better things to spend that money on, and if they could get those things for free, they'd do it then too. Piracy, in its non-idealist form, is not an act of malice, no matter how many moral anchors are tied to it. It simply is, what it is: People who don't feel like paying $20-60 (especially $60) for a box with a disc in it. With that money, they could buy things that they won't regret not renting.

It might tempt some pirates to buy games if they came with neat stuff. An artbook? A making-of? A napkin?

Yep, this still applies. But if that isn't enough, let's go!

1. Most people who pirate for the purpose of entertainment rather than to prove a point make a whole lot less than the developers/musicia-- record labels/movietypes that whine about piracy anyway, so it's hard for them to at all feel bad for them.
2. All DRM did was add an extra step to the pirating process. It's done nothing to stop anyone, and as long as there are software products and the internet, people will do it. There will be some kind of crack for whatever the companies make to try to stop piracy. They want the product, and don't want to pay for it. They will find a way how to do that.
3. Your visions of right and wrong are not universal. No one's are.
4. Were it not for piracy, alot of games AND music would go completely unnoticed. It's laughable when some band who would be nothing without filesharing gets all angry about a leaked album. I'm sure there's games people only heard of because somebody gave them a burned CD of it because their local store only stocks a couple games.
5. People like free things. No ifs, ands, or buts. The money classes below upper-middle will of course spring on something free as soon as they see it. Who in their right mind who doesn't have alot of money is going to overlook something free, especially one that doesn't deprive someone else of the product? (Please notice I didn't say deprive the company of their money because.. well, the companies don't care about the people do they? Why care about them?)
6. There is NO similarity-- I repeat NO similarity between software and physical objects that usually cost money being taken for free. Y'know.. unless stolen cars can duplicate and when someone steals it, it reappears in the same spot for many other people to steal it. This isn't true. Stop that. Using emotional reasons on one side is just as ridiculous as it is on the other.

EDIT: Wait a second, what does this have to do with censorship?

 

[Alleged_Alec]

I won't say I have never illegally downloaded stuff. However, I do have a good reason for it whenever I do. For example, I have downloaded Grim Fandango a few months ago before it's completely impossible to find a copy of that game. I have downloaded a cd because I already own the LP; I don't see why I should pay for it twice.

However, I don't condone downloading as a whole. That might seem hypocritical, but I don't think it is. I don't download any new games or anything

I do think that piracy plays a role in threatening the game industry, but it's not the main cause. The main cause are the overreacting developers with their (almost) intrusive DRMs. I will not spend money on a game which I can only install three times. I will not spend a couple of hours trying to figure which programs need to be disabled to install my legally bought copy of the game. I will not buy a different DVD-player, just because my player is not accepted by the DRM.
Yes, producers, you do have the right to get paid. However, you also deserve to be stolen from when you stick this kind of DRM onto your software.



PS:
On the 'downloading to find out if I like it', I don't really know what to think of it. I've done similar things often enough by playing games over at a friend's house, or borrowing theirs. I do think though, that people will not buy their own copy of the game, but keep playing on their downloaded one.

EDIT:

$20-60

What? 60 Dollars maximum? What are you whining about? Games over here in the Netherlands cost over 60 euros, which is over 80 dollars. And that's still quite cheap compared to certain other countries. Really, you don't have much to complain about price-wise.

EDIT2:

censorship

This has nothing to do with it. Censorship is not something we brought onto ourselves. Both the gaming industry and the plays suffer from it and I think it should be removed (oh, the irony) as soon as possible.

 

[ragestreet]

Hi. My name is Ragestreet and I pirate games whenever i feel like it. I respect the opinions of those of u who don't as long as you respect mine.

 

[Baby Tea]

Again, you're seeing money where there isn't any. What part of "will never buy a game" is too difficult for you to understand.

And what part of 'They would have to, if there wasn't piracy' is too difficult for you to understand?

Once again, what part of "no demo, no purchase" is too difficult?
If you wouldn't pay for a game you downloaded that's your problem. I enjoyed it, so I'll pay for it.

What I'm saying is: that's not the norm, and it would be down right stupid and irresponsible of companies to assume that is the case. Piracy is not there to cater to those who 'need' a demo, it's there to illegally distribute software and movies and music. How you use it is irrelevant.

First you're telling me to use reviews to see if I like a game. Now you're saying it's my fault for not agreeing with them.
Tell me where in the Netherlands I can rent a pc game, especially with this no return policy when the seal is broken in stores, and all my friends are console gamers that prefer very different games.

I'm not saying it's your fault for anything. I am saying that it isn't the responsibility of the developer to provide you with adequate reviews that cater to your tastes. It is your responsibility to educate yourself about a product before purchase. And the beauty about the internet, is that that is easier then ever.

No return policy? Can't rent a PC game? Friends don't play the same games as you? Too freaking bad. So what? That is your problem, not the developer's problem. Make more friends or something, I don't care. That isn't an excuse for theft.

I also never said piracy would stop, I know there will always be people that download games. But that are also not the people that that part was about. I don't want to spend 40 minutes trying to find what program causes SecuRom to refuse my installation. I don't want to install 5 other programs I'm never going to use before I can play a game I bought. All I want, is to insert the game in my dvd drive, enter the cd-key and be able to play after installation. If this is only possible by downloading the game, then so be it.

Hey, I agree with you when you say you want it simple! No doubt! But guess what: Piracy is the reason it isn't, and piracy is the reason it will stay that way. Developers and publishers have every right to try to protect their product from illegal distribution. Have some made poor choices in how to do that? Yup! But that isn't a reason or excuse for theft.

Compared to other "old style" shooters, Jericho is great. It's not a game that should be compared with Half Life or Halo. It's a game that should be compared to Serious Sam, Painkiller or Duke Nukem.

There are few quality related things that anyone wants from anything they buy, be it a dvd, car or game. One of those things is that it actually works. A good game shouldn't need 7 patches just as a car shouldn't break down 5 minutes after purchase.

I brought up Jericho to merely point out that everyone has different opinions in terms of what's 'good' and what is 'bad'. You liked it, others hated it. Both opinions are correct for their respective holders.

And you're right that a game shouldn't need 7 patches right away. That is the developers fault and responsibility. But guess what? That still is not an excuse to pirate the game. A company keeps screwing you over like that? Don't buy from them. Easy as that. How do you know if the game is stable or not? Wait for a month after release. Don't buy it right away! I guarantee if it's broken, the internet will be flooded with people bitching about it and you'll be fully aware of what's in store if you get the game. See how easy that is?

Man I've been listening to the same repetitious, overused, and lame excuses by people who pirate software and movies for a long time. They never get any more right, they never come up with any new (or good) 'reason', and they always end up trying to make it sound like they actually purchase the game if they like it.

I don't care how fast you delete it after downloading, it's theft, it's illegal, it's selfish.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

Man I've been listening to the same repetitious, overused, and lame excuses by people who pirate software and movies for a long time. They never get any more right, they never come up with any new (or good) 'reason', and they always end up trying to make it sound like they actually purchase the game if they like it.

You're doing exactly the same. You're saying the same over and over again; both of you aren't listening to what the other says and you both keep repeating the same points.

And yes, there are people who do buy the game if they like it. I know quite a few of them.

 

[Baby Tea]

Man I've been listening to the same repetitious, overused, and lame excuses by people who pirate software and movies for a long time. They never get any more right, they never come up with any new (or good) 'reason', and they always end up trying to make it sound like they actually purchase the game if they like it.

You're doing exactly the same. You're saying the same over and over again; both of you aren't listening to what the other says and you both keep repeating the same points.

And yes, there are people who do buy the game if they like it. I know quite a few of them.

Well one side is doing an illegal activity for selfish reasons, and another side is on the side of developers who think they deserve money for their work. I wonder which side has more to lose and, therefore, the reason to be the most stubborn?
The one getting the free stuff, or the one getting...nothing?

And pardon me if I'm skeptical (About the 'many' friends who download to 'test'). Even if it's true, the amount of people I know who just download to have is way too big for me to consider that the 'download to test' is the norm.
And even if it WAS the norm, it's still illegal, and still theft.

 

[Zenn3k]

DRM kills the used game market. DRM does nothing to actually stop piracy as proven time and again. DRM hurts and annoys paying customers to the point where the pirated copy becomes a superior choice (IE: Spore). DRM does nothing to improve game sales.

Statistics have shown, people will be willing to pay for a product (even when a pirated alternative is easily available) when the company selling it is honest, trustworthy, and is willing to work on an "honor system".

I read a big article about this particular developing studio, I forget the name and hence cannot find a link, but if you are a frequent Penny-Arcade visitor, you should know what I'm talking about, where he talked about why they DON'T put on DRM, and they see a lot less piracy.

You tempt the internetz who love the lulz with "Ha, this is our new DRM, its copy proof!" and they break it in a day and toss it around the net like free candy. Seriously, what did you expect?
You instead come out and say "We are dropping all DRM software, we are going copy protection free, but there will be services within the game that can't be experienced unless a true unique copy of the game is purchased. Beyond that, pirate all ya like". I bet you get record sales, large numbers of people try the game via pirate and go on to purchase for the "Full Experience" (whatever that turns out to be, Steam, etc) and the customer will respect you for respecting them.

I downloaded Spore, and I have no shame in saying so. I did so for 2 reasons:
1: I didn't like what I was hearing about the DRM
2: I wanted to make sure it was the game I thought it was going to be...and it wasn't.
Spore was the worst game I've played in the last 10 years, I'm GLAD I downloaded it to find that out before dropping $60 on it.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

And you're right that a game shouldn't need 7 patches right away. That is the developers fault and responsibility. But guess what? That still is not an excuse to pirate the game. A company keeps screwing you over like that? Don't buy from them. Easy as that. How do you know if the game is stable or not? Wait for a month after release. Don't buy it right away! I guarantee if it's broken, the internet will be flooded with people bitching about it and you'll be fully aware of what's in store if you get the game. See how easy that is?

With respect, I disagree. A developer makes you digitally sign a contract before you play the game -

if it fucks up your rig, you can't complain.
if you need to install it more than 3 or 4 or 5 times, you need to pay them again.
you can't sell it on or trade it in if you get fed up of it.
worst of all, if the thing simply doesn't work you can't complain.

This is wrong. Someone made an anology recently of a man going into a restaurant and being served food they didn't like. They should pay the restaurant, and not return there again. But this isn't the same. This is like going to a restaurant and the food not even being edible, but being reassured the kitchen "was still working on it". In these circumstances I would refuse to pay and leave. But we can't do this with games.

So the gaming industry has instituted a "buyer beware" ethos into its business model. That's fair enough, but if they want to go down that road there are many people who will take the opportunity to test the games before they hand their hard-earned cash over for what may be a piece of software which is not fit for purpose and shouldn't be sold.

The other thing people need to remember is that illegal downloading is not piracy. I have downloaded several games in the past, after buying them, not before, simply to get at the no-CD/antiDRM crack that it contains. Hunting all over the place for disks or needing to connect to the net merely because some bean counter doesn't trust me with my own software is not my idea of a good business practice.

 

[bitzi61]

Quite a convincing arguement.

Good for you for standing up for what you believe.

 

[Baby Tea]

And you're right that a game shouldn't need 7 patches right away. That is the developers fault and responsibility. But guess what? That still is not an excuse to pirate the game. A company keeps screwing you over like that? Don't buy from them. Easy as that. How do you know if the game is stable or not? Wait for a month after release. Don't buy it right away! I guarantee if it's broken, the internet will be flooded with people bitching about it and you'll be fully aware of what's in store if you get the game. See how easy that is?

With respect, I disagree. A developer makes you digitally sign a contract before you play the game -

if it fucks up your rig, you can't complain.
if you need to install it more than 3 or 4 or 5 times, you need to pay them again.
you can't sell it on or trade it in if you get fed up of it.
worst of all, if the thing simply doesn't work you can't complain.

This is wrong. Someone made an anology recently of a man going into a restaurant and being served food they didn't like. They should pay the restaurant, and not return there again. But this isn't the same. This is like going to a restaurant and the food not even being edible, but being reassured the kitchen "was still working on it". In these circumstances I would refuse to pay and leave. But we can't do this with games.

So the gaming industry has instituted a "buyer beware" ethos into its business model. That's fair enough, but if they want to go down that road there are many people who will take the opportunity to test the games before they hand their hard-earned cash over for what may be a piece of software which is not fit for purpose and shouldn't be sold.

The other thing people need to remember is that illegal downloading is not piracy. I have downloaded several games in the past, after buying them, not before, simply to get at the no-CD/antiDRM crack that it contains. Hunting all over the place for disks or needing to connect to the net merely because some bean counter doesn't trust me with my own software is not my idea of a good business practice.

Look, even if, and in some cases 'when', I agree with you about some of the poor practices in the gaming industry, that is still not an excuse to illegally download a product. Not even close. And don't try to tell me piracy is a form of industry protest. That's a load of bunk. Just don't buy their games any more.

When the industry sees 'piracy', they see lost sales and get pissy and do something stupid like DRM.
When the industry sees 'low sales', THEN they change things around to make sure they do it right next time.
Remember, they are in the business to make money. BUT with piracy such a big issue, they have all their attention on that rather then on the people shouting for quality control. And when low sales does hit (Because of poor quality control), they blame piracy since it is so darned prevalent.

Also, referring to your final paragraph, why don't you just get a crack rather then download the whole thing again?

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Look, even if, and in some cases 'when', I agree with you about some of the poor practices in the gaming industry, that is still not an excuse to illegally download a product. Not even close. And don't try to tell me piracy is a form of industry protest. That's a load of bunk. Just don't buy their games any more.

I never said it was a form of industry protest, simply a method to see if a game is in decent working condition before you pay for it. Games these days are less reliable than used cars, and you wouldn't buy on of those without taking for a spin would you? Especially if you couldn't get a refund if it went wrong.

There is no difference here. Using hard drives and internet connections as excuses to deliver shoddy work on the promise to fix it up later is not good enough. If I pay for something it has to work out of the box. Alternatively, they should let me test it first or offer a full no-questions-asked refund if it doesn't work.

When the industry sees 'piracy', they see lost sales and get pissy and do something stupid like DRM.
When the industry sees 'low sales', THEN they change things around to make sure they do it right next time.
Remember, they are in the business to make money. BUT with piracy such a big issue, they have all their attention on that rather then on the people shouting for quality control. And when low sales does hit (Because of poor quality control), they blame piracy since it is so darned prevalent.

DRM might possibly be about stopping the second hand game market, but it certainly has nothing at all to do with piracy. Any assertions that it is are just spin by the game companies in an attempt to justify a highly unethical business practice. I mean look at this crap [http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/second-hand-game-sales-are-a-huge-issue-epic].

Also, referring to your final paragraph, why don't you just get a crack rather then download the whole thing again?

Depended on the game. For some games finding a working crack was a pain in the arse, and for others it was too easy (i.e. Virus-Mart). In many cases it was actually easier to get a full game DLed than find a working crack on its own. NOTE: I never actually used the game, just extracted the exe file or the crack.

 

[Lord Krunk]

Enter DRM, a last-resort mechanism in a desperate attempt to create a failsafe security measure. Sure, it's harsh, but it's also fair. Plenty of people have screwed them over, and now they are showing the people the repercussions of Piracy. It's hard to trust people, so why do it? Security will get harsher as Pirates continue to thrive, so deal with it.

The thing is that DRM has bugger-all effect on pirates or piracy. Spore was cracked and put up on the interwebs within days of release, then promptly became the most pirated game ever. The pirates don't have to put up with the hassle of DRM, only legitimate customers do. They are essentially being punished for the wrongdoings of others. Regardless of whether you pirate or not, that just isn't fair. DRM doesn't work against piracy. Indeed, it is my opinion that it was never created to combat piracy in the first place. Pirates are notoriously quick at cracking even the toughest security software, and EA and others know this. Why do they use DRM then? Second-hand sales.

Think about it. The big game publishers are always spouting off about how the second hand market is destroying the industry. With DRM, they've managed to find a way to stop people selling games to each other. Who's going to buy my copy of Mirror's Edge if it's halfway through its install limit already, and liable to uninstall itself at the slightest excuse? That's what the publishers are gunning for. This has nothing to do with piracy, and everything to do with money hungry fucks trying to curb-stomp a perfectly legal market into extinction, simply because they feel they're not getting any money from it.

Believe me, this is not fair, and it's not our fault. Regardless of whether people at EA are getting screwed over or not, they as a company are only allowed to take the money we the gamers owe them. We do not owe it to them to buy all their crappy DLC, we do not owe it to them to rent our games to us, and we do not owe it to them to decide whether we can buy second hand or not! If this was any other industry, there'd be outrage, yet somehow games companies can get away with it.

So, to return to my title statement; DRM and Censorship, you brought it on yourselves.

"You"?

The people reaping the benefit aren't the ones suffering the consequences.

...

It's not just piracy that motivates DRM, either. Every big content producer in the world wants to rent stuff out to you instead of letting you actually buy it: "You can use this thing but I will mercilessly control how and how much -- oh, that means you have to forfeit your legally-protected rights as the first-sale owner of a copyrighted work, as well as any pretense of privacy or security on your own computer -- and I reserve the right to take this thing away from you if I decide to be a dick or get tired of keeping my old key server running. Oh, and it still costs just as much as it did back when I actually allowed you to own it."

-- Alex

I understand your plight and agree with you to some extent, but I have to say there's a few holes in your argument.

Now, if you had your car, computer, console etc. randomly stolen under a similar pretense, you would feel screwed over too. Idiot, I would just call the police, you say. Well, change the thief into a guy who steals your possession when no-one?s around, jumps the border so he won?t get caught, and a subsequent turn of events results in the lack of said item causing you to lose you job so you can?t buy a new one. Let?s say that that item was the game they are trying to sell, and no money means that they can?t create a new one. This is Piracy.

The thing is that piracy is NOT the same as stealing someone's possessions. Don't get me wrong, it's still stealing, but of a different kind. The worst part about thievery is the lack of possessions of the person who gets stolen from. If someone steals your car, you'll probably be upset because you're minus 1 car. However piracy thrives in the digital world, where copies of information can be formed almost instantaneously.

Sticking with an analogy, it's closer to a car company releasing a new model of a car intending to sell one to each customer. However, only one customer buys it and, using his magical duplicating machine (I didn't say it was a perfect analogy), makes copies of the car for all his friends to use. Yes, the car company planned to sell one to each person, but someone else figured out they could just make copies and give those copies to other people. The car company is out the money they expected to make, but no one had anything stolen. No one lost any possessions. I'm still not condoning piracy, but put in this context does piracy seem as wrong as it did 5 minutes ago?

And secondly, you can't put down a blanket argument that "we brought it on ourselves" because that's punishing everyone for piracy that not everyone did. Remember in Elementary School when all you wanted to do was go out to recess but some kid did something stupid like crapped in a urinal or wrote an obscenity on a wall, and because no one admitted to it, everyone had to stay inside instead of going out to recess? That's punishing many for the crimes of few, something that seemed stupid back then and is even more rediculous now. DRM means that if I legally buy my music but then decide to scrap my old computer and move from Mac to PC or PC to Mac, I need to re-buy my music. And what if I digitally purchased a movie on my computer, but I want to play it on my X-Box? It has DRM on it, so I can't. It's not my fault people pirate movies/music/software and I shouldn't be the one who gets caught in the cross-fire with restrictions on MY digital property. EDIT: Furthermore, I have a bad habit of managing to crash my computer an alarming amount of times per month and having to re-install all my games and programs and copy back over all my music and movies from my back-ups. I take full fault for my clumsiness with computer OS's, but my software/movies/music shouldn't be threatened. Limiting my re-installs or number of copies, hell even identifying my computer as the computer that software/movies/music can be installed on screws me over in the end, because each fresh install of Windows is recognized as a new computer, and dual-booting my Macbook Pro counts as two different computers.

The biggest problem is that there's no form of Digital Rights Management that is compatible with everything, knows entirely when it's ME making copies for MY personal use only, and yet can distinguish when copies are being made for other people and stop them. Now such measures I'm sure are ridiculously hard to make, but when they're ready I'll move to them. However in the mean-time, I refuse to buy software/movies/music that I know I'm going to have to RE-PURCHASE depending on what OS I settle on, or that may not be compatible with the form I want to play them in the first place.

Now, I'm not saying that you all don't have valid points; you have some very good ones.

The message of my OP is to state that, as you know, DRM does jack-all against Piracy, and, as you guys have stated, has been formed for other reasons. Now, even with all that down, why is it still around?

Piracy is the excuse.

They are making this software under the pretense that it will prevent Piracy, and while it doesn't they are using it as a reason to introduce DRM. Believe me, if piracy continues to thrive, then the big devs will release harsher and harsher security measures, until the industry collapses under its own weight. Which leads once more to the title.

And anyone who claims that 'Piracy isn't theft', that's just one of the idiotic false pretenses that I mentioned in the OP.

 

[Yuriatayde]

"DRM" has gotta die, or companies using such methods will die. Case and point; I wanted Spore, bad, but then it came out, bad reviews came out, and the rumors of the DRM were so bad that I was greatly tempted when I heard that pirated versions removed it. Still haven't gotten it, but it would take a stroke to get me to pay money for it when I have so much better to spend my limited funds on. Fighting piracy with brute force will only lead to a vicious cycle.

It's not possible to defend piracy without losing all of your credibility, because it is stealing kinda... But also take in mind that such exists things as rental stores, and before the internet; we gave our used CDs to eachother. These are ALL under the same catagory as piracy, under the rule that you're getting a game with no money reaching the publishers.

I think it's only a hot subject right now because they can suddenly monitor a huge contributor of second hand gaming, and they see the money, and they want it. So they complain, because the squeaky wheel etc etc.

[edit]

Spoiler

You wouldn't know by reading me, but I've only ever pirated (read; downloaded a hacked version) one game, and I wouldn't do it again anytime soon. One thing they could do, is be sneaky; release pirated versions of their own games RIDDLED with viruses. That would deter alot of people!

[edit #2] Oh yeah, and I absolutely hate the "try before you buy" argument, because I read it as "trust me, I'm a good guy!" when you're doing a bad thing.

 

[Sewblon]

I have never pirated anything, nor do I condone piracy, it is theft. I do not condone DRM either, if Spore is any indication it does not work at all so all it does is restrict the access of legitimate consumers to products that we payed for. By subjecting everyone who buys the game to this EA and other companies who incorporate DRM are lumping all PC gamers in with pirates, and if they don't respect or trust their customers how can they ask their customers to respect or trust them. Most importantly no one could get away with doing this with non-electronic intellectual property, like books, everyone would condemn them, they might even get sued, but the games industry keeps trying to make us accept it. Like all other forms of theft piracy can be reduced but so long as something to steal exists, amoral humans shall steal it. Thus DRM is intrinsically unjust and unfair. If believing this makes me ignorant to bad for developers and publishers, get used to catering to imbeciles and fools.

 

[Baby Tea]

Look, even if, and in some cases 'when', I agree with you about some of the poor practices in the gaming industry, that is still not an excuse to illegally download a product. Not even close. And don't try to tell me piracy is a form of industry protest. That's a load of bunk. Just don't buy their games any more.

I never said it was a form of industry protest, simply a method to see if a game is in decent working condition before you pay for it. Games these days are less reliable than used cars, and you wouldn't buy on of those without taking for a spin would you? Especially if you couldn't get a refund if it went wrong.

There is no difference here. Using hard drives and internet connections as excuses to deliver shoddy work on the promise to fix it up later is not good enough. If I pay for something it has to work out of the box. Alternatively, they should let me test it first or offer a full no-questions-asked refund if it doesn't work.

Again: While I agree that some reforms to the game industry would be great, that still doesn't give an right to anyone to illegally download software. Trying before you buy it is a fantastic way to know if a game is stable/right for you. No doubt. But if the developer doesn't offer that option, then you don't have the right to illegally download the software to 'test it' yourself. It's still theft, regardless of your motives.

 

[Faeanor]

If there was a magical DRM that actually made it impossible to pirate games I'd say you have a point. As it stands, there is no DRM that can actually stop the pirates. And since it doesn't stop them, it's not really a deterrent at all. In fact all that fancy DRM is doing is making the paying customers go through more hoops for the thing they now "own". Or worse, the customer installs too many times and suddenly the thing they "own" no longer works. And that's especially cruel when it's not specifically stated on the box that there is a set install limit. I'm rambling, sorry.

And comparing software theft to material theft doesn't work as a comparison. It's been covered in other threads.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Look, even if, and in some cases 'when', I agree with you about some of the poor practices in the gaming industry, that is still not an excuse to illegally download a product. Not even close. And don't try to tell me piracy is a form of industry protest. That's a load of bunk. Just don't buy their games any more.

I never said it was a form of industry protest, simply a method to see if a game is in decent working condition before you pay for it. Games these days are less reliable than used cars, and you wouldn't buy on of those without taking for a spin would you? Especially if you couldn't get a refund if it went wrong.

There is no difference here. Using hard drives and internet connections as excuses to deliver shoddy work on the promise to fix it up later is not good enough. If I pay for something it has to work out of the box. Alternatively, they should let me test it first or offer a full no-questions-asked refund if it doesn't work.

Again: While I agree that some reforms to the game industry would be great, that still doesn't give an right to anyone to illegally download software. Trying before you buy it is a fantastic way to know if a game is stable/right for you. No doubt. But if the developer doesn't offer that option, then you don't have the right to illegally download the software to 'test it' yourself. It's still theft, regardless of your motives.

Ohh I never said it was "right" in any shape or form. But is it really piracy if that software is being downloaded merely to sample? Please, nobody go running for dictionary.com. You know perfectly well what I mean by that sentence.

In any case, that is neither here nor there. No point in retreading that particular ground.

I think you aren't getting what I am actually saying (my fault for being too obtuse). My general point isn't a defense of piracy but rather a condemnation of the state of gaming right now. Games are overhyped, with promised features that hardy ever actually appear in the games. Many of them are too bugged to even play, and are woefully short. Now they are foisting DRM on us, as well as with-holding content from games to sell it to us later as DLC (horse armour anyone?). The gaming industry seems to want everything its own way, and the gamers to play along and hand over their money like good little monkeys. Piracy being rife is largely as a result of shoddy and/or unfinished games that people want to check out before buying, and also as a result of DRM. The second hand gaming market is down to games that people blast through in less than a weekend before being bored to death by them.

In these cases the gaming industry has options to deal with the problems that they themselves are creating. Whether actually (gasp!) finishing off the game before selling it, making it a decent game, not overhyping and promising shit that isn't there (Peter Molyneux), or simply quietly making a game and releasing it to the market the good old fashioned way (Sins of a Solar Empire), that is what they can do. Instead some game companies are actually punishing customers who do the right thing and buy their products (DRM), complaining to governments that the law isn't doing enough (no law against them lying like fuck to sell games or releasing them half done and not fit for use though eh?)

To prevent a further redundant post - NONE OF THIS IS AN EXCUSE FOR PIRACY. That is NOT what I am saying. What I am saying that most of this is the fault of the game industry itself. Until the game industry bean counters actually start treating their target market with some respect then I very much doubt that their problem with pirates will improve.

 

[CRAVE CASE 55]

So, to return to my title statement; DRM and Censorship, you brought it on yourselves. I?m asking, no, pleading that anyone who commits or supports such an act on these forums take heed to my warning, because if it doesn?t stop, the gaming industry will.

I second that

I third it