DRM, Censorship, you brought it on yourselves.

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Look, even if, and in some cases 'when', I agree with you about some of the poor practices in the gaming industry, that is still not an excuse to illegally download a product. Not even close. And don't try to tell me piracy is a form of industry protest. That's a load of bunk. Just don't buy their games any more.

I never said it was a form of industry protest, simply a method to see if a game is in decent working condition before you pay for it. Games these days are less reliable than used cars, and you wouldn't buy on of those without taking for a spin would you? Especially if you couldn't get a refund if it went wrong.

There is no difference here. Using hard drives and internet connections as excuses to deliver shoddy work on the promise to fix it up later is not good enough. If I pay for something it has to work out of the box. Alternatively, they should let me test it first or offer a full no-questions-asked refund if it doesn't work.

Again: While I agree that some reforms to the game industry would be great, that still doesn't give an right to anyone to illegally download software. Trying before you buy it is a fantastic way to know if a game is stable/right for you. No doubt. But if the developer doesn't offer that option, then you don't have the right to illegally download the software to 'test it' yourself. It's still theft, regardless of your motives.

Ohh I never said it was "right" in any shape or form. But is it really piracy if that software is being downloaded merely to sample? Please, nobody go running for dictionary.com. You know perfectly well what I mean by that sentence.

In any case, that is neither here nor there. No point in retreading that particular ground.

I think you aren't getting what I am actually saying (my fault for being too obtuse). My general point isn't a defense of piracy but rather a condemnation of the state of gaming right now. Games are overhyped, with promised features that hardy ever actually appear in the games. Many of them are too bugged to even play, and are woefully short. Now they are foisting DRM on us, as well as with-holding content from games to sell it to us later as DLC (horse armour anyone?). The gaming industry seems to want everything its own way, and the gamers to play along and hand over their money like good little monkeys. Piracy being rife is largely as a result of shoddy and/or unfinished games that people want to check out before buying, and also as a result of DRM. The second hand gaming market is down to games that people blast through in less than a weekend before being bored to death by them.

In these cases the gaming industry has options to deal with the problems that they themselves are creating. Whether actually (gasp!) finishing off the game before selling it, making it a decent game, not overhyping and promising shit that isn't there (Peter Molyneux), or simply quietly making a game and releasing it to the market the good old fashioned way (Sins of a Solar Empire), that is what they can do. Instead some game companies are actually punishing customers who do the right thing and buy their products (DRM), complaining to governments that the law isn't doing enough (no law against them lying like fuck to sell games or releasing them half done and not fit for use though eh?)

To prevent a further redundant post - NONE OF THIS IS AN EXCUSE FOR PIRACY. That is NOT what I am saying. What I am saying that most of this is the fault of the game industry itself. Until the game industry bean counters actually start treating their target market with some respect then I very much doubt that their problem with pirates will improve.

*claps* Said it better than I could.

 

[Baby Tea]

To prevent a further redundant post - NONE OF THIS IS AN EXCUSE FOR PIRACY. That is NOT what I am saying. What I am saying that most of this is the fault of the game industry itself. Until the game industry bean counters actually start treating their target market with some respect then I very much doubt that their problem with pirates will improve.

Now I could go back on your post and nitpick at the opening for argument sake about how I do, indeed, still call that piracy, but I'll save that dead horse a further beating.

I quoted your last paragraph because I really liked the last sentence. I'll be at the front of the crowd in demanding some better quality control and consumer respect in the video game industry. No doubt that a reformation, of sorts, needs to happen.

However, while I don't doubt that piracy would be effected by such a reformation, the fact remains: People like getting things for free. And, to be honest, I think fixing the industry problems would only really remove the peace of mind that so many have when they illegally download games...but then they'd just become apathetic and not care to have a reason beyond 'I want it'.

I'm sure that sounds a bit cynical, but if there is anything I learned in my many years of customer service and retail work, it's this: People will use whatever excuse at their disposal to get what they want for free because they think they deserve free things. Take away the poor reasons and lame excuses, and all you're left with is simple selfishness and greed.

So I'll certainly concede that work needs to be done on the industry side to win back and maintain the trust of their customers, but I won't say it's (entirely) their fault. The underlying theme with all of this is greed, which is why piracy will always be a problem and never be gone...but is still never permissible.

 

[ragestreet]

I doubt piracy is stealing. It's creating a copy of something and making it freely available to a hungry market while leaving the original intact and able to be sold for profit. As long as the number of buyers outnumbers the number of pirates i see no problem.

 

[Siegreich]

The problem is that the extreme measures that EA takes on piracy is fucking over just as many legitimate users, who then have to call in get more authentications, or can't play at all because they are not connected to the internet, also lan gaming goes out the window because now everyone who wants to play has to spend 50$ on a game they might play once at a lan party. basically for every pirate the drm try's to stop (you can still get torrents of most drm locked games), several gamers who just want to install their game on multiple computers or play on the go get screwed over, and that's the problem with drm.

Yes, but the idea of it is just and fair.

Ah, piracy. A prominent example of how people will do wrong if they don't have to suffer any consequences for it.

It's kind of sad that piracy is pretty much unavoidable. Your friend drives you somewhere in their car, they play a CD of pirated music. You watch a movie at their house, it's pirated as well.

Well, there is hope. I mean, the anarchist movement died in the space of a decade, Piracy could do the same with a bit of help from communities.

The idea for for communism was considered just and fair and look how that turned out

 

[Dramatic Flare]

I understand your DRM arguement, but how is censorship involved in that? they're completely unrelated. Censorship comes in when people complain about adult material, excluding the fact that the games are meant for people over 17 anyway...
And you didn't even touch on it in your original post, Lord Krunk. I'd drop the Censorship part or explain yourself.

 

[Tekrae]

It's even worse when it comes to smaller companies.
STALKER Clear Sky, for example, is one of my favourite games. The graphics are as good as Crysis', the gameplay is excellent, and it's got more mutants than you can shake a stick at. And yet, despite how awesome this game is, it has to be sold at Penetration price just to get sales in the western world. The thing is, when they release their games they are buggy as hell because their budget can't cover much playtesting (If any), although they do their best to fix as many as these bugs as they can quickly.
And I think the reason for things like this is pretty clear to me, since everybody else I know who has the game torrented it.

And then, of course, this leads to cases like Spore. It quickly became the most pirated game ever due to the fact nobody wanted SecuROM 7 on their computer, which I find understandable. And of course, EA probably thought this meant that they weren't being hard enough with their security, taking it up a notch.
And yet, while the DRM screws up the computers of those who legally bought the game, those who pirated the game do not have the game's DRM on their computer.

 

[HSIAMetalKing]

So, to return to my title statement; DRM and Censorship, you brought it on yourselves.

How is censorship part of this equation? I understand DRM and am not too bothered by it... but in what way is censorship justified by pirating?

 

[Wyatt]

it occures to me that i can set here smugly knowing, not thinking, but KNOWING that when companys declare war on their customers they wont be in business for long.

i truly do agree that piracy is theft, its taking someone elses work and using it without their consent, there is no way around this. my only issue is with the war that certian companys have declared on ME, a paying customer.

for many many years companys the world over in all kinds of businesses have had things more or less their own way. all transactions are established by the COMPANY not the customer, the prices are set by the company, all (if any) terms of sale are set by the company, any after purchase support is up to the company to provide. with this and this type of related businesses the power isnt in the hands of the company anymore. its in the hands of the consumer. if we arent treated fairly the company WILL suffer for it. simple common sence tells you taht a single copy of any media is more than enough to provide for everyone who has access to the net need's. one copy can be given out for free after a single purchase by one kind soul that uploads it. thats the simple truth. and any company that doesnt relize that not only do they now have to provide a good product but they have to provide a good service totaly, to include reasonable pricing, good support, and a product free from defects, and to go the extra 20 miles to ensure happy customers wont be in business long because their choices are to either include awsome customer support or to decalre war on their customers, DRM is the second choice and you can see the hit that EA took on not just spore but a whole slew of their games. there was several titles that EA was involved with taht i WOULD have purchased, i wont purchase anything from them ever again untill i see in big bold highlights on their websight that they are removing any and all forms of DRM from all of their products, past , present, and future. and say what you like im not making a threat im simply stating a fact and im certianly NOT alone. and furthermore the first thing i check into now when i think of buying a new game is to see what if any DRM it has, so not only has EA fucked themselves out of my business they have fucked their fellow publishers out of it too potentialy if they follow the same DRM path.

there are companys out there that dont use ANY DRM, stardock for one, in fact there is 4 games on my drive now that i dont even need to put a CD in to load, they dont have ANY form of DRM beyond validation codes for patches/updates. THOSE are the companys that will eventualy prosper when customers rebel against being fucked over by companys like EA. their business model works and word of mouth spreads like wild fire on the net. in a sea of asshat companys like EA those that DONT attack their paying customers will rise to the top and get MUCH more business and attention by the public that they might otherwise have gotten.

and another thing to ponder, while the impression is that kids play games and are the 'core market' and the assumption taht kids are so stupid that they will put up with anything to get that 'must have' game, if you think that way your in for a wakeup call. its not kids paying the bills its the adults, and when my choice as an adult is to buy that 'must have game' and get fucked after purchase by a totaly unreasonable DRM scheme, or too say screw you to EA and not buy it at all (or pirate it) as an adult and with cash in MY pocket to spend ill be sure and spend that cash on something of value not something that i KNOW will be a coaster inside of 6 months. there its lots of games and lots of companys to choose from that DONT treat me like a theif, and if it comes right down too it, and somehow tommorow every game publisher in the world started using unreasonable DRM than i would stop playing new games.

im NOT going to give you my money so you can screw me over. and argue all you want, but most people feel the same way i do. and its starting to show up on the bottom lines for those companys that have chose this path of conflict. the PR machine isnt working, with respect too the OP your pissing in the wind, as much as your right about piracy being wrong, the companys involved are doing things just as, if not MORE wrong and the simple truth is i dont work for any of those companys so my sympathy is lacking, i HAVE however been screwed over BY those companys before, and i dont actualy think i know anyone who plays video games that HASENT in one way or another. so with both sides being equil from a moral/ethical view (and they are) though i dont pirate, i get a certian ammount of glee from reading about those that do. when i read that Spore was the biggest pirated game of all time i enjoyed that. it was a fitting reward for EAs actions, one good fucking diserves another. those pirates became champions paying back EA for all the poor saps that actualy spent their cash on spore and got the shaft for it. those people that did the 'right' thing and actualy purchased the game got screwed so any screwing that the company gets in return just makes my day. its would be WORTH not having any new games to play, it would be WORTH loosing the entire video game industry totaly just for once in the entire history of the God damn world to have the customer be able to take a just revenge on asshole companys.

EA and companys like them dont care about us at ALL other than what they can get out of our wallet/pocketbook you seriously expect that any kind of an appeal to morality or ethics will work? when i see some glimmer of morality and ethics out of the COMPANY in how they treat ME than ill certianly reconcider how i treat them but as long as im a cash cow and my dollers are all the company cares about than dont expect me to care about anything but MY dollers as well.

 

[lazerwolf]

I only got up to about halfway of page 2 so if I'm repeating anything, sorry...

I see a lot of people misunderstanding exactly what Piracy does and is. Piracy is essentially Copyright Infringement. Its not straight up theft, its slightly different.

from wiki, "Copyright infringement (or copyright violation) is the unauthorized use of material that is covered by copyright law, in a manner that violates one of the copyright owner's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

For electronic and audio-visual media, unauthorized reproduction and distribution is occasionally referred to as piracy"

So basically lets say a developer makes 1000 units of a game and sells it to a local game store. If you were to physically steal one of those units resulting in 999 actual copies of the game to be left, that would be theft and therefore someone (the dev or the game store however distribution actually works) would be out one copy of the game.

However, Piracy makes illegal extra copies of the game so if 50 people pirate the game you have 1050 copies of the game. Now if all 1000 copies sell from the store then the Developer and the gaming store aren't missing out on anything. What they actually are missing is +50 POTENTIAL sales. I use potential because you can never be sure whether or not a pirate would actually buy the game at all if it wasn't freely available or not.

Now i'm not saying that this justifies the act at all but it definitely shows how it actually effects the industry. If you look at the sale numbers while ignoring anything pirated, copied or installed on multiple computers, all of the numbers will match up and nothing appears to be missing.

The real crime, as i've mentioned before, is copyright infringement and distribution. Anything you make an extra copy of that you do not own the rights to is technically copyright infringement. So even if you burn a copy of the game for whatever reason you are violating the law. This is where it gets into a gray area. I see no problem in sharing a game or whatever media with a friend or using it on multiple computers. This is where the biggest fault in the DRM falls. the DRM does not fight Piracy in the slightest, it punishes second hand gaming (i.e. used) and sharing which is the wrong approach.

lets say I bought a game and loved it so I burned a copy for my friend so we both could play. What would be the level of Piracy in that act? What if after I burned the game for my friend he loved it too and went out and bought it. Lets say instead of burning a copy I just lent it to my friend. The DRM in its current state is actually FIGHTING THIS PROCESS!!! That is absolutely ridiculous.

The DRM is based around Greed and disdain for the honest consumer. Its not piracy that will destroy the gaming industry (or any industry for that matter), its the DRM in its current state because it actually causes more piracy.

The weird fact is they actually only crackdown on those who distribute copyrighted material and not those who download it

* no words were pirated in this post

 

[Logan Keller]

For the people asking about the censorship part I believe it is a reference to a government (Danish?) censoring thepiratebay because of the amount of piracy going through it.

 

[A.I. Sigma]

Games I will always buy. No doubt about it.

However, especially in the area where I live, DVDs and music are so grossly overpriced. It's not about 'fighting the power' or 'they have enough money', it's simply because I can't afford the damn things, and I'm getting pissed off with having to fork out ridiculous amounts for their stuff.

I myself don't actually rip it off, I get it from elsewhere (sometimes paying a small amount for a high quality version), but I don't do it often, because I will admit I feel guitly. However, manufacturers should consider stopping the overpricing of the stock before whining about how it's getting ripped off.

 

[Enigmers]

I see where you're coming from, but, even with DRM, spore is (as far as I've heard) still easily piratable without the DRM, so the only people that get screwed over by DRM are the people who bought it legally. I have no problem with anti-piracy measures as long as they don't screw over the people who buy games normally.

Now, if it wasn't for DRM, I'd have no problem with buying Spore, however, DRM is there, so I will neither buy nor pirate it.

 

[Soigieoto]

The only game that i have thought about pirating was Fallout 3.(I didn't though)


The reason being I already bought it for Ps3 and really wish to not have to fork over more money to play the DLCs.


I agree with the original posters veiws.

 

[theultimateend]

Its such a relief to see that I am not the only anti piracy nut here. I agree whole heartedly. yes, its a sucky measure, but its the best we have

Keyword bolded.

If Piracy ended, I would no longer have the only quick way of seeing if a game is worth my time or my money. Every single game I've ever demo'd has been purchased and every single game I've hated has been lamented (I think that's the word I'm looking for).

Now for most pirates that I've ever known, this is how the system works. I don't care what you 'think' all the pirates are doing, that doesn't matter to me, I'm not here to defend all pirates. But every single one I've ever known has worked like this. We all have copius gaming shelves full of only the best games, what makes a game the best game you might ask "IT'S A GAME YOU ACTUALLY LIKE REGARDLESS OF WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SAY!"

That's what annoys me when people say "Just read reviews." Frankly they've never been an accurate tally for me, I love some games many people hate and I hate quite a few games people get boners just thinking about.

Now you might say "That's what Demo's are for." and I agree. Any company that has ever provided me a Demo has never seen my IP on any torrent site for their game. Well I suppose I should rephrase that. Any company that has provided me a real demo has gotten that courtesy. DoWII for instance gave me the option to demo their game (because I bought Soulstorm, a game I pirated first I might add) and I appreciate that. I mean I'm not going to buy it because to me it's a complete piece of shit. That's my opinion, I know many of you don't agree with it but that's how >I< feel. (I'm being specific here to limit the amount of bitchy responses if anyone is curious)

The problem is most companies don't probide proper Demo's anymore, all the major review sites now have immense levels of pressure and integrity issues (Seriously people who gave SPORE a 9 or a 10 even with my open mind I feel there is a disconnect). There is also the issue of the new car smell that catches many people by surprise. Sure for the first week you think its the greatest thing ever and you tell all your friends, then reality hits you and now all your friends are 50 dollars out too and likely feeling the same thing.

There are exceptions to some of the above of course. If a game is properly priced I will buy it without checking in advance, a few of my DS purchases have been like that, they were cheaper than their competitors and I appreciated that nod to me. They realized that I have other bills in my life and while I want to support them I can't fork out 35 dollars everytime I want a handheld game. In the end they get a thank you, some money, and I get a product which is how I used to feel the gaming world worked.

DRM has never and will never stop piracy, what it does do is insult people. I've made multiple products that at any point anyone could have given out on torrents and essentially killed my (albeit small) income from those products. Likewise I've had things I've toiled over stolen because other people didn't understand copyright laws (for instance the act of editing an image to get to that 'original content' % people talk about is already a crime without permission of the original author ). Do you see me doing things differently? No I have a very stardockian way of viewing things.

You should notice a popular quote I like to steal quite often from the late Henry Ford.

"There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible. "

Lemme say why this is important, if you feel I'm incorrect in my logic show me a company that has followed this and not had my results:

Any company following Henry Fords one rule garners respect from the consumers.
Anyone who has respect from the consumer will gain their support.
Anyone with support from consumers will have enough gains to survive and to grow.

Now we can argue that business's should be able to milk you for every penny you have on you. But that is not the ideal form of Capitalism. The idea is to create a business of the highest quality while not lessening the quality of the lives of those you cater to.

It is entirely possible to produce games of exceptional quality with absolutely minimal protection (See CD Key) and still survive and become a thriving and utterly dominating company.

All that DRM does is remove that tie of respect between customers and businesses. Look at EA's stock after SPORE was released, it has been on a relative free fall since that date and with each report of a new more advanced DRM their stock takes another hit (it may be recovering lately but it still has ages to go before it is back to normal). You might say "It's the recession" but keep in mind EA was the biggest loser of all other business's multiple times in the last year. Even if you take into account other people are losing money EA is losing money at a far more impressive rate.

Now I've lost my place but I'll continue from where I think I was going with this . If Piracy stops I will merely stop buying games from any company that doesn't provide me with a sincerely accurate portrayal of their product. That means companies like Bethesda will lose sales from me (considering I've bought every single thing they've released since Morrowind, each time pirating before I bought to make sure I liked it). In fact I'm quite certain every company except for indie developers, valve, and stardock would instantaneously lose my business.

There ARE people who abuse piracy, likewise there ARE people who go into the store and steal things, does that mean that everyone should be treated as a criminal that walks into a store? Most businesses find that the amount of theft in the store is directly related to the amount of customer relations completed in that store. Likewise you'll find the companies working the hardest the distance themselves from consumers (Like EA who tends to ban anyone who questions their practices) are the ones suffering the hardest from this all.

The biggest issue I think I have is that piracy nuts believe there is a direct and almost unanimous correlation between piracy and loss in sales. Never once questioning the developers or the product. It is no wonder that SPORE was pirated so many times and didn't get many sales, I imagine most people pirated it and were appalled at what had become of a revolutionary concept. Games like Crysis complain about piracy but frankly it was a turd with a shiny crown on it, it did nothing exceptionally well except cover up its problems with beautiful landscapes. That's admirable but I have high definition images when I want pretty.

Plus DRM companies aren't here to protect the people making the products, they are here to make money. Starforce released a live link to Stardock's Galactic Civilization II in response to Stardock refusing their DRM service. Sony's team behind SecuROM is no different, these services are run by children who charge many thousands of dollars to put an easily crackable block on products. Last I knew it cost 3k dollars per movie (not per copy of movie mind you) to use blu-ray's DRM. DRM that was cracked on what...day 0? Week later? That's why you don't see small time movie makers using Blu-Ray, you end up spending more money on the DRM than you make back in many many sales.

The cost of DRM has never and will never offset the little that it does especially when the little that it does is drive away consumers and create more of the very thing it is said to create.

I just have trouble understanding how you all defend censorship and DRM when the latter has been caught red handed abusing piracy for its own end and the former merely causes the crimes to become even harder to detect. Many illegal activities now are no less prolific than they once were they are just harder to see and I feel that it is far less safe to be amidst crime that goes undetected than crime that is.

Extra Note: Likewise these fantasy characters that pirate because they refuse to pay for things (that are in many examples on this site and others) would not buy the games if you got rid of piracy entirely. They'd (almost entirely) just turn to something else.

 

[Wicky_42]

As far as I see it, the VAST MAJORITY of pirating is because people see that they can get something for free, so they figure, "why pay?" and just download it. There's none of this 'fighting corporation' bullshit that gets thrown around here by people defending their actions and laying scorn on the people who have made their entertainment.

If no-one pays for the games, who will make them? We live in a capitalist society, which runs on the flow of money. The programmers, designers and artists have all put time and effort into producing these games, and if you don't pay then the company makes less money, maybe even a loss. People get lain off, quality of work goes down, the industry stops taking risks and just churns out the same unimaginative stuff year after year. Well, we've already seen that last point come into force over the last couple of years - I'm betting we're going to keep seeing a lot of sequels and fewer innovative gems over the years to come.

A big problem piracy-wise is in university, I've found - you're regarded as an idiot if you can't get hold of movies, games and music for free when everyone else is. On the filesharing network set up over my hall's network there's a variety of games and over a terrabyte of music and movies, conveniently and freely available. Now there's a temptation that you can't resist as a student, with limited funds and too much time on your hands. Hell, I didn't even realise that World of Goo wasn't freeware! When piracy has become so prevalent and easy to commit, you have to think of just how much money the industry is missing out on.

There was an article linked in one of the other piracy posts about DRM - a tweakguides article, if I remember right - which claimed that the main purpose of DRM is to delay the cracking of the game for long enough that there's at least a few days post-release during which the game is not available for free, encouraging those eager to play the game to get their fat asses down to the shops rather than downloading it. (This is of course sabotaged by the industry's insistence on staggering release dates globally...)

My issue with this is that if this is the case, why not patch the protection out after the first couple of weeks or so? Make life easier for those who have purchased - get rid of the need for the cd or continuous online activation or whatever. Make additional content available for download directly to those with a registered copy of the game, again rewarding those who purchase it.

Additional online available content and MORE DEMOS are what I would like to see as a means to combat piracy. Oh, and reduce prices - lower prices means people are more likely to try a game out, obviously. There's only so many times I'm willing to shell out £30 - £40 on some potentially dodgy, buggy software with limited entertainment value. Preorders are great and all, but with the current state of demos it's all a bit hit n miss.

 

[theultimateend]

A big problem piracy-wise is in university, I've found - you're regarded as an idiot if you can't get hold of movies, games and music for free when everyone else is. On the filesharing network set up over my hall's network there's a variety of games and over a terrabyte of music and movies, conveniently and freely available. Now there's a temptation that you can't resist as a student, with limited funds and too much time on your hands. Hell, I didn't even realise that World of Goo wasn't freeware! When piracy has become so prevalent and easy to commit, you have to think of just how much money the industry is missing out on.

It's neat to see the different areas outlook on pirating. On the network at our college the people passing around World of Goo were called all sorts of wonderful words that rhyme with things like punt, bass pole, rock ducker and the likes.

Most my friends are pretty militant about piracy as a means to avoid buying something you actually like. To anyone on this forum who things otherwise, I do agree that anyone who steals things they like to avoid payment is an absolute douche that needs to be shot (or something I dunno).

However those people will NOT become honest citizens if you remove their avenue . A dick is a dick even if hey can't find a *woopsie*.

Likewise if it is a VAST MAJORITY, considering the amount of people who do pirate certain games how is it that just about any company still exists or ever has profits? I would think that considering how many people DO pirate if the VAST MAJORITY don't but the stuff they like then there is absolutely no way most game companies exist to this day (or post large profits as quite a few of them do).

 

[Mizaki]

$20-60

What? 60 Dollars maximum? What are you whining about? Games over here in the Netherlands cost over 60 euros, which is over 80 dollars. And that's still quite cheap compared to certain other countries. Really, you don't have much to complain about price-wise.

Do you really think (dramatic pause) that people who pirate (one more!) give a shit about what other people pay? Yeah, it sucks for people who have to pay even more, but guess what? 60 dollars is still money. The whole "people have it worse" thing does not take away the fact that the complaining person has it the way they do. Spending money is still spending money no matter how much some dude across the ocean is spending.

Also, every single anti-piracy statement can be defeated with one word, which pro-piracy folk pretty much say except in long defense-ridden paragraphs: "So?" Really, read any anti-piracy post or statement and follow it with "so?" and well that's how the logic works. The long posts and the excuses are just long ways of saying it. And well I guess it actually doesn't really get the point across. Because, even when the "What about the children?" type argument is brought in, the answer is still "So?" Obviously, pirates who pirate for their own pleasure are not as emotionally invested into the situation as the people against it, so you can't make them feel bad about it. It ends there. All the posts after this one are just further proving this. No matter what anyone says, no matter what companies do, things will be the same.

 

[Flour]

I never said that. I said it would be downloaded a lot less than now.

Bullshit you didn't say that. It was a direct quote. Maybe it wasn't what you meant, but it was what you wrote.

I don't see how that post could have meant anything other than "less copy protection = less chances of something going wrong = less excuses to download games"

[...]

You're really stuck in your own little world, aren't you?
People who have been disappointed by a product, will be much more careful when buying another, similar product. Game sales would drop if piracy was made impossible.

It's more common than you think, and it's not irrelevant why I pirate games. It's only irrelevant for your little "every pirate wants everything for free" argument.

Then, how exactly would I get educated on a game when there is no proper demo and reviews can't be trusted? Yeah.. that would have meant that the total amount of games I would have bought in the last 3 years is exactly one. The Orange Box, because Valve automatically gets my money if I get to play a new Half Life game.
I don't think I ever meant to use it as an excuse, I already stated that there was absolutely NO chance of me buying games if I didn't play downloaded games.(technically I never download anything, my brother is the one with the high-speed torrent site, I just abuse the fact that we're on the same network)

Yes, developers and publishers have the right to protect their products, but I have a right to get a product that does not fuck up my computer the way SecuRom does. It's fun trying to install games when SecuRom disables my DVD drive, but does nothing against daemon tools and all those other programs to play .ISO's.

Actually I brought up Jericho to show you that I didn't like the same games as the majority of the internet.
You're really going to find complaints about a game that wasn't hyped. All I could find for Jericho is how much people hated it. A torrent solved this problem, showed that I could run it and that I didn't get any game breaking errors.

Apart from maybe 2 or 3 points I've been giving you the stock responses, I know. But you don't deserve anything better.
You have shown that you have absolutely no argument beyond yelling that piracy is stealing.
I found the article I meant to include in my first post [http://www.positech.co.uk/talkingtopirates.html]
Give me a decent response and I might choose to not ignore your next post.

EDIT: Also realize what you're saying. I'm allowed to test a car before I buy it, music can be heard on the radio, movies are relatively cheap, I can see a house before I decide to buy it, hell I'm even allowed to return console games within 24 hours(7 days online) and hardware in 30 days. But PC games are special and should be bought on nothing more than blind faith and other people's opinions.