Escape to the Movies: Halo Legends

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nightwolf667

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paragon1 said:
nightwolf667 said:
paragon1 said:
If you think Gears of War and Halo are the only Western games out there Bob, then I think it's time you payed a visit to ANYWHERE THAT SELLS VIDEOGAMES. If you do, you'll see a wide range of titles with a wide range of characters in a wide range of genres that you appear to have missed.
Let me name a few that break your stereotype that are sitting on my shelf right now.
Brutal Legend
Mass Effect 1 and 2
Assassin's Creed II
Dragon Age
Uncharted 1 and 2
Bioshock
So...yeah.
You know, there are Western video games out there that break MovieBob's stereotype. You haven't named one yet. Actually, you've proved his point.

So...yeah.
Yeah nothing. Almost none of the main or supporting characters in those games fit his description of western game characters. Hell, half of those let YOU pick what the character will be like.
No half of those let you pick what the character is going to look like not what the character will be like. Including the ones that offer "morality choices". All of those main characters while not technically the "grunting space marine stereotype" fit MovieBob's description of the "hyper masculine stereotype" that is dominant in American gaming. In case you didn't notice: the "grunting marine stereotype" comes from American values that worship the hyper masculine. This includes those games you listed that let you play a woman as Female Shepherd really isn't a woman, just a man with boobs. And before you jump all over me for not being fair to women, remember this: I'm a girl.

Now that we've mentioned Mass Effect 2, you also seem to have missed the part where the game is trying to be both Halo and Gears of War (at the same time while simultaneously failing at both) and is trying to draw in that same crowd of gamers who make the ultra masculine stereotype so popular. It's about what the characters do, what they say, and what they're trying to be. Besides, all that talk about you getting to decide your own path is just that, talk.

On a side note, the choices given to you in Mass Effect are themselves black and white that usually wind up in the land of Lawful Good and Chaotic Stupid, neither of which making much sense when compared more closely with the overall objective. It's a false sense of freedom to make you feel like your in control when in reality it's more like reading one of those old school Choose Your Own Adventure novels. You get to pick your path, but there's really only one right choice and the game itself will punish you for not playing it the way it thinks you should. Even worse than the Choose Your Own Adventure books, the choices you make in Mass Effect have no real direct effect on the plot. There are times when you make either a renegade choice or a paragon choice and receive the exact same dialogue from the characters around you or sometimes from Shepherd himself/herself. Whatever the choices you made in Mass Effect 1, the way they carry over is purely cosmetic offering you more game play and side quests than if you chose to ignore them entirely. It's there to promote the feeling that you are affecting this universe, while hiding from you the fact that nothing you do in this game really matters. The path is set. No matter what you do, did, or didn't do you'll still have to do point A to get to point B to get to point C and collect your plot coupons like a good little player. No matter whether or not you chose to save the Council, let them die, or replace them with a contingent of humans, they will still not believe you. You will still have to work with Cerberus to stop the Collectors and your choices will still only be that of the A) game decided morals of good or B) game decided ideals of a racist psychopath. Either way you will be violent. Therefore by all standards that matter, choice itself is irrelevant.

Back on topic.

Since you seem to believe that the stereotype is based on looks alone, here are a few examples for looks: the canon version of Shepherd in Mass Effect (the one who appears on the game box and the posters) is bald, muscular, and wears powered armor.

The protagonist from Brutal Legends also fits the image stereotype by being overly muscular, in a fashion that is very similar to that of Gears of War.

The protagonist of Uncharted and Uncharted 2 is toned down on the muscle side, but also has the same adventurer, tough guy look and the black hair.

The guy in Bioshock is basically a cardboard cutout with no personality, but Jack from his arms alone one can gather that Jack himself is athletic. Still, he's a blank slate that allows the player to ascribe their own (or whatever personality they want) to him, while still having him fit that same hyper masculine stereotype present in all the other games you've listed.

Dragon Age? My God, Dragon Age is a blatant LotR rip off (I'm honestly not joking far too many of the cut scenes are basically identical with scenes from the movies), which itself is a standard bearer for the hyper masculine stereotype. Also a book which came before the days when there either were space marines or space marines were popular. Now, I'm willing to admit that there's a lot more to LoTR than just that but there really isn't to Dragon Age, which managed to attach now outdated cultural values and stereotypes from the 1930s-40s into a modern day game while still failing to add anything that is unique or new.

The last is Assassin's Creed II which appears to still be fitting the stereotype, though I haven't played it yet, so I wouldn't know. The first one did though, so if it follows in the footsteps of its predecessor then it probably is.

The majority of western video games (or video games that don't come from Japan, those ascribe themselves to an entirely different set of stereotypes that they rarely veer away from), especially those video games made by or for American companies for an American audience support the American cultural ideal of what it is to be a man. It's that same hyper masculine stereotype present in the majority of action movies, novels, and TV shows. It has it's variations and some companies do a better job of hiding it than others. Due to their massive popularity Gears of War and Halo are the easiest to point to and say: look there it is, this is what American gaming is all about. It's a broad over generalization of a very large sub-genre, but it's one that's legitimate. There isn't a lot of variety in the character types of most mainstream video games (including ones from Japan, right now Metal Gear Solid's Solid Snake and the protagonists from Resident Evil are coming to mind).

Before jumping on the train to deny the stereotype, it's important to know what it is, what it looks like and the many varied forms it can take before decrying that it exists in your favorite games (given that your screen name is "paragon1", I'm going to make the assumption that you are a fan of Bioware's). This way, when you point to something and say that's not true, you can drag out examples that actually work like the GTA games which are parodies of American culture.

The problem becomes that with games that are popular, they often become that way because they are supporting a stereotype (or look like they are) which the varied factions of culture have been taught to accept. Then, other games come out trying to mimic those games to achieve the same level of success. Example: God of War. Kratos himself is a poster boy for the hyper masculine stereotype and is wildly popular. Plenty of people on this site alone have been complaining about all the terrible rip offs lately and yet they keep coming because people buy them anyway. From a marketing standpoint, it's much safer to go with a formula you know will work, rather than attempt to break ground by being original or incorporating new stereotypes into the protagonist. (Often only to receive scorn and poor profits that lead to inevitable bankruptcy when you do.)

People like the familiar and the hyper masculine is just that. This is why MovieBob mentions the sports game in the same breath as the space marines, they both are proponents of the same overarching stereotype that make them so very popular. (Granted, Gears of War itself is basically a parody of the stereotype, but moving on.)

So yeah...
 

obliterate

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MovieBob said:
Doug said:
I don't really give a flying fuck about Halo, but I am utterly sick of Bob's Wapanese attitude to everything western.
Consider yourself very lucky I didn't have this job back when they remade "Godzilla" ;)
Ouch...That hurt (giggle)
Anyway the review was super :) Thank you Bob
 

droppingpenny

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Stabby Joe said:
Would it really not sell well? It would depend on how it's done. God of War for example is really epic and violent. Okami was odd since I have no clue at all why it didn't sell in the bucket loads.
The problem with japanese mythology based games is expecially with okami, that the game is too creative and too good for an average western player, they just don't know who f.e. Amaterasu is, and what does everything mean, and they don't want to know, they want more of the stuff they know. God of War on the other hand, was epic, but it was also familiar, because it was set in greek mythology, and it's violent, the protagonist is a Man who slaughters everyone in his way.(not that there is something wrong with it, except it doesn't have giant cyborg hares...)

Agent 47 works incredibly well, because in a stealth game necause the assassin has to look average in order to stay unnoticeable, you buy it, but Hitman looks also different than an average guy because of some details here and there: Tatoo, red tie etc. of course a giant cyborg hare with chainsaw ears would work as well ^^. I know that in Demon Souls it is supposed to be bland, but it kind of is a let down in terms of design. There are Shooters, where the protagonist is as iconic as the enemys he is opposing and it works, like in Megaman, Earthworm Jim, Red & Blue in Gunstar Heroes, Rad Spencer in Bionic Commando Nes.
 

gilgamesh32

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Something was strange about this review. Where is the "(I know not all...)" message that should follow the comment on western gaming? The usual pre-emptive counter? I'm a pretty avid Bob-follower and I am dissapoint.
 

Stabby Joe

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droppingpenny said:
The problem with japanese mythology based games is expecially with okami, that the game is too creative and too good for an average western player, they just don't know who f.e. Amaterasu is, and what does everything mean, and they don't want to know, they want more of the stuff they know. Agent 47 works incredibly well, because in a stealth game the assassin has to look average in order to stay unnoticeable, you buy it, but Hitman looks also different than an average guy because of some details here and there: Tatoo, red tie etc. of course a giant cyborg hare with chainsaw ears would work as well ^^. I know that in Demon Souls it is supposed to be bland, but it kind of is a let down in terms of design. There are Shooters, where the protagonist is as iconic as the enemys he is opposing and it works, like in Megaman, Earthworm Jim, Red & Blue in Gunstar Heroes, Rad Spencer in Bionic Commando Nes.
I don't think Japanese Mythology is "too good" for American audiences, which is a rather negative slant on their part not to mention insulting to the many great and rich (and in my view much better) mythologies they do enjoy like Greek, Egyptian and MesoAmerican.

Not sure about Hitman's red tie being unqiue on the other haha!

Now the example you've used for unqiue shooter characters are all comical in their style. Those who people complain about are serious in their setting.

As for Demon's Souls I massively disagree with your view on it's design. It had elements from both West and East designs, many looking very unique. Sure you had your dragons and knights but then you've got your flying string rays, tattooed toad monsters, men made of worms, squid faced monks, warrior jesters, scaly mole men and many more. The other characters to had east deigns with the obscure armor and weapon they sport.

God of War was epic, but it was also familiar, because it was set in greek mythology, and it's violent, the protagonist is a Man who slaughters everyone in his way.(not that there is something wrong with it, except it doesn't have giant cyborg hares...)
Not really familiar since other games of its type before it aren't as such with it's characters. Most of Greek Mythology involves deaths and pissing off the Gods... God of War just increases it (btw the cyborg hare fetish is creepy haha jk).
 

Stabby Joe

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nightwolf667 said:
The last is Assassin's Creed II which appears to still be fitting the stereotype, though I haven't played it yet, so I wouldn't know. The first one did though, so if it follows in the footsteps of its predecessor then it probably is.
I don't care much about your other points raised, some I agree with but two stand out. The first is Mass Effect but you're clearly not a fan so I won't bother (I just feel the choices give more variety to the standard RPG format).

Instead I'll shed some light on Ezio of Assassin's Creed II. Altair and Ezio are very different.

Ezio has a large family who he cares about and wants to protect, is forced to work with some unsavory characters that seems to depress him while at the same time working with some very interesting ones (EG a young Da Vinci). He has a relationship in secret but is respectful about it and greets friends and associates with hugs and sometimes kisses. In short, his "European-ness" is what's emphasized.

Altair is just sort of... there...

Assassin's Creed II improvement not just in gameplay and design but also characters. Ezio might fall into an archetype but it's not the all American space badass people are complaining about.
 

droppingpenny

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Stabby Joe said:
I don't think Japanese Mythology is "too good" for American audiences, which is a rather negative slant on their part not to mention insulting to the many great and rich (and in my view much better) mythologies they do enjoy like Greek, Egyptian and MesoAmerican.

...

Not really familiar since other games of its type before it aren't as such with it's characters. Most of Greek Mythology involves deaths and pissing off the Gods... God of War just increases it (btw the cyborg hare fetish is creepy haha jk).
Sorry I didn't mean the japanese Mythology is too good for the average player, I meant Okami is too good for the average player, because it has so much interesting stuff in it, that many people are not familiar with. Because of that it keeps failing, because people like familiar stuff and Greek Mythology is one of them because there are many Movies and TV Series and Comics based around that mythology even pop culture icons like Wonder Woman borrow elements from there. And though Greek Mythology is Violent, it has most of the times a message, and a meaning on a different level as well.

Not sure about Hitman's red tie being unqiue on the other haha!
I have yet to see an assassin wearing a red tie ;-)

Now the example you've used for unqiue shooter characters are all comical in their style. Those who people complain about are serious in their setting.
People complain, because the "serious" protagonists are mostly walking stereotypes who look like grocery store owners, supermarket employees, landscape contractors, you name it. They just have nothing interesting or special, that pops into your eyesight... unlike a giant cyborg hare with chainsaws for ears.

Btw. the games i named are serious:

Gunstar Heroes is very serious in it's setting: The world is getting destroyed, two siblings have to save the world from aliens.

Bionic Commando is Serious: Hitler was resurrected and wants to take over the world (this is some serious sh*t right there!)

Megaman: Technology runs mad, and Rock volunteers to become Rockman/Megaman to save humanity

As for Demon's Souls I massively disagree with your view on it's design. It had elements from both West and East designs, many looking very unique. Sure you had your dragons and knights but then you've got your flying string rays, tattooed toad monsters, men made of worms, squid faced monks, warrior jesters, scaly mole men and many more. The other characters to had east deigns with the obscure armor and weapon they sport.
There is a good chance I didn't notice most of these things, because I suck really hard at Demon's Souls and keep dying.
 

Stabby Joe

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droppingpenny said:
Sorry I didn't mean the japanese Mythology is too good for the average player, I meant Okami is too good for the average player, because it has so much interesting stuff in it, that many people are not familiar with. Because of that it keeps failing, because people like familiar stuff and Greek Mythology is one of them because there are many Movies and TV Series and Comics based around that mythology even pop culture icons like Wonder Woman borrow elements from there. And though Greek Mythology is Violent, it has most of the times a message, and a meaning on a different level as well.
With Okami, did you mean the art style? True that could have been it but I know the story and characters are "marketable".

I have yet to see an assassin wearing a red tie ;-)
I can only think of 3 others, all different.

People complain, because the "serious" protagonists are mostly walking stereotypes who look like grocery store owners, supermarket employees, landscape contractors, you name it. They just have nothing interesting or special, that pops into your eyesight... unlike a giant cyborg hare with chainsaws for ears.
First off, the two offenders people keep bringing up are Master Chief and Marcus Phoniex... neither looks like they work in a shop. Secondly could you use a better example then your rabbit since such a thing would not fit into those game worlds and if it had its own it would most definitely be a comedy orientated style.

Btw. the games i named are serious:

Gunstar Heroes is very serious in it's setting: The world is getting destroyed, two siblings have to save the world from aliens.

Bionic Commando is Serious: Hitler was resurrected and wants to take over the world (this is some serious sh*t right there!)

Megaman: Technology runs mad, and Rock volunteers to become Rockman/Megaman to save humanity
I'll give you Gunstar since that's the only one I don't know much about in all honesty. If I look into on the other hand...

As for Megman, describe the plot in any way you want but everything is so cheery and cartoony. Oh and Bionic Commando? Anything with Hitler coming back as a story can't be taken seriously in the slightest.

There is a good chance I didn't notice most of these things, because I suck really hard at Demon's Souls and keep dying.
Really? Some of those are on the first levels. Heck the first boss is a giant blob with a spear and shield.
 

Edthebed

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I don't know man.

I'm a big fan of these reviews but leaving movie-land and wading into the waters of gaming does not seem like a great choice. Without getting too deep into the whole West vs Japan gaming culture issue (though I would like to point out that there are many "Otaku" who are just as unpleasant as Halo players on XBL), I was disappointed by MovieBob's close-mindedness here. He generally does an excellent job of limiting the influence of his own taste and discuss films based on their quality within the genre, but he doesn't seem able to in this case. As easy as it is to mock western stereotypes, ANY game or genre can be made to sound idiotic if you try (ie. FFVII is just a guy with amnesia and a sword stabbing people till the world is saved).

Writing that, even to illustrate a point, was pretty painful and I feel kind of dirty, so I'm going to go shower. But overall I liked the review of the movie, but felt the gaming part was unnecessarily aggressive and dangerously close to fanboyism.
 

droppingpenny

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Stabby Joe said:
With Okami, did you mean the art style? True that could have been it but I know the story and characters are "marketable".

I have yet to see an assassin wearing a red tie ;-)
I can only think of 3 others, all different.
Could you name them, I know only Agent 47?

Stabby Joe said:
First off, the two offenders people keep bringing up are Master Chief and Marcus Phoniex... neither looks like they work in a shop. Secondly could you use a better example then your rabbit since such a thing would not fit into those game worlds and if it had its own it would most definitely be a comedy orientated style.
Ok I'll give you Master Chief, but Marcus Phoenix looks like an average misproportioned guy in an armor.
Btw. You don't know how Master Chief looks like, but he looks really familiar doesn't he *cough*Metroid*cough* but more boring as a character since there is no "omg it's a woman" twist, and almost no backstory to him.
as to the Setting: This is the problem! most of teh "Serious" shooters are set in our world on Earth, which is a huge limitation by itself. If it was set in a fantasy world like Star Wars, the designers could be more creative.

Stabby Joe said:
I'll give you Gunstar since that's the only one I don't know much about in all honesty. If I look into on the other hand...

As for Megman, describe the plot in any way you want but everything is so cheery and cartoony. Oh and Bionic Commando? Anything with Hitler coming back as a story can't be taken seriously in the slightest.
It's meant to be Ironic. I didn't mean it, though Gunstar Heroes is more serious than megaman.

Stabby Joe said:
Really? Some of those are on the first levels. Heck the first boss is a giant blob with a spear and shield.
I've never seen the first boss either :'-( .
 

droppingpenny

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Edthebed said:
I don't know man.

I'm a big fan of these reviews but leaving movie-land and wading into the waters of gaming does not seem like a great choice. Without getting too deep into the whole West vs Japan gaming culture issue (though I would like to point out that there are many "Otaku" who are just as unpleasant as Halo players on XBL), I was disappointed by MovieBob's close-mindedness here. He generally does an excellent job of limiting the influence of his own taste and discuss films based on their quality within the genre, but he doesn't seem able to in this case. As easy as it is to mock western stereotypes, ANY game or genre can be made to sound idiotic if you try (ie. FFVII is just a guy with amnesia and a sword stabbing people till the world is saved).

Writing that, even to illustrate a point, was pretty painful and I feel kind of dirty, so I'm going to go shower. But overall I liked the review of the movie, but felt the gaming part was unnecessarily aggressive and dangerously close to fanboyism.
He was "The Game Overthinker" before he was featured here on the Escapist, he knows this stuff as well and has already adressed the Issue of West vs. Japan. (just look for him at screwattack.com under "partners", TheGameOverthinker, or on his Youtube Channel)
He doesn't like this type of Otakus either, watch his Shane Acker's 9 Review.
 

TheSeventhLoneWolf

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Blingling said:
Dinosaurs! Of course - thats what Halo was missing all along.
Gosh darn it. I'd love to crash into a T-Rex in a giant Scarab tank thing.

I saw this review on the homepage. I was just like: ''Halo animation? Wow.'' with half-arsed glee.
 

Stabby Joe

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droppingpenny said:
Could you name them, I know only Agent 47?
Splinter Cell - Fully equipped with gadgets.
Thief - Black clothed.
Assassin's Creed - Very foreign cloak with (before their time) weapons.

Ok I'll give you Master Chief, but Marcus Phoenix looks like an average misproportioned guy in an armor.
Btw. You don't know how Master Chief looks like, but he looks really familiar doesn't he *cough*Metroid*cough* but more boring as a character since there is no "omg it's a woman" twist, and almost no backstory to him.
as to the Setting: This is the problem! most of teh "Serious" shooters are set in our world on Earth, which is a huge limitation by itself. If it was set in a fantasy world like Star Wars, the designers could be more creative.
I don't think Gears is... but it's close enough... true. But if that was the case why the hell are people complaining about Mass Effect if Star Wars is A OK?

It's meant to be Ironic. I didn't mean it, though Gunstar Heroes is more serious than megaman.
It's hard to tell on the internet these days haha!

I've never seen the first boss either :'-( .
...dam.
 

droppingpenny

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Stabby Joe said:
Splinter Cell - Fully equipped with gadgets.
Thief - Black clothed.
Assassin's Creed - Very foreign cloak with (before their time) weapons.
The third and forth ones would be
Solid Snake - oldschool almost without gadgets Assasin, and
Cyborg Raiden - a cyborg assassin (which sounds kind of badass now when I think of it), though they aren't western at all, I just wanted to mention them as well, since there aren't that many stealth action games in general.

But not a single on of them wears a red tie! ;-)
So from now on the Red Tie is oficially iconic to Hitman! ^^

But if that was the case why the hell are people complaining about Mass Effect if Star Wars is A OK?
Star Wars was just an example, you could make anything, expecially when you see how powerfull the consoles are(even the Wii). As for Mass effect, like I said earlier, the character design of the Protagonist is not present at all, the designers force you to duct tape a character from stock body parts, I think this is the problem.

It's hard to tell on the internet these days haha!
The more you know ;-) *NBC music playing*
 

nightwolf667

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Stabby Joe said:
I don't care much about your other points raised, some I agree with but two stand out. The first is Mass Effect but you're clearly not a fan so I won't bother (I just feel the choices give more variety to the standard RPG format).

Instead I'll shed some light on Ezio of Assassin's Creed II. Altair and Ezio are very different.

Ezio has a large family who he cares about and wants to protect, is forced to work with some unsavory characters that seems to depress him while at the same time working with some very interesting ones (EG a young Da Vinci). He has a relationship in secret but is respectful about it and greets friends and associates with hugs and sometimes kisses. In short, his "European-ness" is what's emphasized.

Altair is just sort of... there...

Assassin's Creed II improvement not just in gameplay and design but also characters. Ezio might fall into an archetype but it's not the all American space badass people are complaining about.
Thanks for the light shedding, :D! Like I said I haven't played Assassin's Creed II (mostly because I'm poor and cannot afford it), so I don't have the opportunity to critique it more thoroughly. But I wasn't really arguing that he belonged in the archetype of the all American space badass, if that were true then I wouldn't have had a bone to pick with Paragon1 (except over Mass Effect which does fall very solidly into that genre). It was more about the stereotype behind it: the hyper masculinity one that manages to cross over most genres of the Western games. Which is what I assumed MovieBob was really getting at when he made the joke about the West versus Japan.

When it comes to Bioware, I was a pretty happy fan of theirs before Dragon Age came out. Then I played it and my English Major education got the better of me. That was when I really noticed that I was just playing Mass Effect or KoTOR or whatever is next down the list, with a different skin and characters that didn't belong in the setting. I completely bought into the fact that they'd said it would be dark, then it wasn't dark, it was just blood spattered. Everything went downhill from there. (That and the arbitrariness of the influence system made me want to strangle them.)

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. But I don't play it for the story and I don't expect it's characters to break away from the archetypes, or be anything other than archetypes (except when a few manage to escape by accident) or even *gasp the family drama. (I think Garrus is the only one who doesn't have any? Zaeed doesn't count because you could make a pretty decent case that the Blue Suns were his family.) The game play is fun and it has some redeeming qualities, but there is one thing it's not. Original. Parts of it are, the choices can be fun and they would be more fun if they had real effects. It has a certain narm charm with the hammy dialogue and the ham handed use of plot devices, plus the twists are easy to see coming. They do a better job than some when it comes to the writing, but I haven't been able to take them seriously ever since I took a chapter from on of the Mass Effect novels (written by the head writer) and read lines of it interchanged with the Eye of Argon. The sad part was that there was little difference between the two in terms of interesting prose.

So, no, I'm not a fan but I've beaten it, tried to play through as male Shep on a new save, and so on. Like I said, it's not that there's nothing redeemable there, it's just that there isn't a lot there except newly infused quicktime events that can be buggy and the choices themselves are nothing I haven't seen done somewhere else and done better. (They also mattered more.)

Thanks for the info on Enzio though, I'm thinking of playing Assassin's Creed II when I have the money and the time.
 

Edthebed

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droppingpenny said:
Edthebed said:
I don't know man.

I'm a big fan of these reviews but leaving movie-land and wading into the waters of gaming does not seem like a great choice. Without getting too deep into the whole West vs Japan gaming culture issue (though I would like to point out that there are many "Otaku" who are just as unpleasant as Halo players on XBL), I was disappointed by MovieBob's close-mindedness here. He generally does an excellent job of limiting the influence of his own taste and discuss films based on their quality within the genre, but he doesn't seem able to in this case. As easy as it is to mock western stereotypes, ANY game or genre can be made to sound idiotic if you try (ie. FFVII is just a guy with amnesia and a sword stabbing people till the world is saved).

Writing that, even to illustrate a point, was pretty painful and I feel kind of dirty, so I'm going to go shower. But overall I liked the review of the movie, but felt the gaming part was unnecessarily aggressive and dangerously close to fanboyism.
He was "The Game Overthinker" before he was featured here on the Escapist, he knows this stuff as well and has already adressed the Issue of West vs. Japan. (just look for him at screwattack.com under "partners", TheGameOverthinker, or on his Youtube Channel)
He doesn't like this type of Otakus either, watch his Shane Acker's 9 Review.
Sorry I was unclear, I'm not implying that he lacks experience in gaming, I was pointing out that his criticisms of movies are generally more specific.

This sounded to me like the sad black and white discussion of games where everything is either "OMG greatest game ever! Every aspect of the game is the best ever anywhere forever!" or "This is garbage, everything that anyone likes about it is literally the worst anyone has ever done it, and people who like it are all idiotic fanboys. I'm super smart." It might be possible that no one has made a perfect game or a perfectly bad game.

You are right though, I hadn't seen his "9" review so my Otaku comment wasn't 100% accurate.
 

droppingpenny

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Edthebed said:
Sorry I was unclear, I'm not implying that he lacks experience in gaming, I was pointing out that his criticisms of movies are generally more specific.

This sounded to me like the sad black and white discussion of games where everything is either "OMG greatest game ever! Every aspect of the game is the best ever anywhere forever!" or "This is garbage, everything that anyone likes about it is literally the worst anyone has ever done it, and people who like it are all idiotic fanboys. I'm super smart." It might be possible that no one has made a perfect game or a perfectly bad game.

You are right though, I hadn't seen his "9" review so my Otaku comment wasn't 100% accurate.
I see, but this isn't this sort of Discussion, rather then more "I don't like Halo" statement but more exaggerated ;-) . However, a perfectly bad game was made, E.T. for the Atari 2600, this game killed the whole american console market, you can't go worse than this.
 

Stabby Joe

New member
Jul 30, 2008
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droppingpenny said:
Star Wars was just an example, you could make anything, expecially when you see how powerfull the consoles are(even the Wii). As for Mass effect, like I said earlier, the character design of the Protagonist is not present at all, the designers force you to duct tape a character from stock body parts, I think this is the problem.
I on the other hand see it as a small throw back to the original on paper RPGs, giving the player a bit more structure to their character. Even though it may not be much, it's still there.

nightwolf667 said:
Thanks for the light shedding, :D! Like I said I haven't played Assassin's Creed II (mostly because I'm poor and cannot afford it), so I don't have the opportunity to critique it more thoroughly. But I wasn't really arguing that he belonged in the archetype of the all American space badass, if that were true then I wouldn't have had a bone to pick with Paragon1 (except over Mass Effect which does fall very solidly into that genre). It was more about the stereotype behind it: the hyper masculinity one that manages to cross over most genres of the Western games. Which is what I assumed MovieBob was really getting at when he made the joke about the West versus Japan.

When it comes to Bioware, I was a pretty happy fan of theirs before Dragon Age came out. Then I played it and my English Major education got the better of me. That was when I really noticed that I was just playing Mass Effect or KoTOR or whatever is next down the list, with a different skin and characters that didn't belong in the setting. I completely bought into the fact that they'd said it would be dark, then it wasn't dark, it was just blood spattered. Everything went downhill from there. (That and the arbitrariness of the influence system made me want to strangle them.)

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. But I don't play it for the story and I don't expect it's characters to break away from the archetypes, or be anything other than archetypes (except when a few manage to escape by accident) or even *gasp the family drama. (I think Garrus is the only one who doesn't have any? Zaeed doesn't count because you could make a pretty decent case that the Blue Suns were his family.) The game play is fun and it has some redeeming qualities, but there is one thing it's not. Original. Parts of it are, the choices can be fun and they would be more fun if they had real effects. It has a certain narm charm with the hammy dialogue and the ham handed use of plot devices, plus the twists are easy to see coming. They do a better job than some when it comes to the writing, but I haven't been able to take them seriously ever since I took a chapter from on of the Mass Effect novels (written by the head writer) and read lines of it interchanged with the Eye of Argon. The sad part was that there was little difference between the two in terms of interesting prose.

So, no, I'm not a fan but I've beaten it, tried to play through as male Shep on a new save, and so on. Like I said, it's not that there's nothing redeemable there, it's just that there isn't a lot there except newly infused quicktime events that can be buggy and the choices themselves are nothing I haven't seen done somewhere else and done better. (They also mattered more.)

Thanks for the info on Enzio though, I'm thinking of playing Assassin's Creed II when I have the money and the time.
Ok, you've got yourself a pretty big post there so I'm going to try and make a collect point to all of yours.

Now I do play Mass Effect for the story along with the gameplay. The reason being is that it appears to be fast becoming gaming's space opera. Film has Star Wars and TV has... well, a good few shows. The reason being is that while people might complain about the generic space marine, I focus on the lore involving politics, racial and class division, personal turmoil etc in a new setting. You could make a case of "archetypes" but it annoys me when other medias somehow get away with this and while ME might be familiar in some ways, in my personal opinion it does those things better.

The prime thing I agree on with you is the lack of new features but on the up side, more of the same is good if you like that, I'm mean it's only two, I'd be pissed if it was 4 or 5. The decision making an impact do work BUT I find it's better if you imported the other character. For example many decisions that don't appear on the import screen do come up, this adding an extra personal touch that people yern for RPGs just like it's first incarnations on pen and paper form.

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My view on this entire subject is simply there is an issue with western cliches and archetypes but many (not those who I've been talking to at the moment, you seem to have a somewhat different case) who make it either pretend or ignore those east side.
 

Vrex360

Badass Alien
Mar 2, 2009
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CORRODED SIN said:
How do the Elites go from "WootWootWoot!" to Japanese/Samurai/English speaking culture???
They had always had a warrior culture and heritage based around honor and nobility. In Halo 1 humans had very limited access to technology that could actually translate what the elites were saying so it came out kinda.... distorted.
From Halo 2 and then onwards however the elites have been displaying more of the valiant warrior side that they always should have been showing, largely I think they speak english just so that people can understand what is being said.
Point is, part of me feels that Samurai fighting is actually quite fitting for the elites given their culture and background so heavily emulates that.

Hooray for me I was able to make a post about the elites without reminding everyone how godly and holy they are and without telling the humans that they inevitably face doom at the hands of the elites and.... oh... never mind.