Escapists and the military

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Yureina

Who are you?
May 6, 2010
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No.

I considered it seriously for a time, but I don't think that I am the type of person who should go into the military. I have too many internal issues that I have, and also considering my own psychological state, I think I probably would come out with more problems than I went in with, and that little bit would probably be enough to tip me over the edge off the cliff into insanity.
 

CrikeyO

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Jul 1, 2009
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Sporky111 said:
I have no will to join in Canada's Armed Forces. I mean, I'd be fine with defending my country and I support the peacemaking effort, I just don't support the military system in general.

I don't deal with stress well, at all. If I were to be put in a training environment, I'd probably be the one who loses it and end up either going AWOL (and fucking my life over even further) or killing myself.
In my experience it helps if you listen to what your superiors say regarding equipment, drills etc and blank out the insults. In the end, it reflects poorly on them if you fail so they are harsh in a bit to ensure you succeed. I guess their idea is if you can't hack someone screaming in your face, you're probably not going to hack bullets cracking past your ears.

I will admit it was difficult attempting to control my laughter when a sergeant a full foot shorter than me went eyeball to eyeball in an effort to chew me out ...
 

Sporky111

Digital Wizard
Dec 17, 2008
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CrikeyO said:
Sporky111 said:
I have no will to join in Canada's Armed Forces. I mean, I'd be fine with defending my country and I support the peacemaking effort, I just don't support the military system in general.

I don't deal with stress well, at all. If I were to be put in a training environment, I'd probably be the one who loses it and end up either going AWOL (and fucking my life over even further) or killing myself.
In my experience it helps if you listen to what your superiors say regarding equipment, drills etc and blank out the insults. In the end, it reflects poorly on them if you fail so they are harsh in a bit to ensure you succeed. I guess their idea is if you can't hack someone screaming in your face, you're probably not going to hack bullets cracking past your ears.

I will admit it was difficult attempting to control my laughter when a sergeant a full foot shorter than me went eyeball to eyeball in an effort to chew me out ...
See, that would be fine with me if they would let you leave. I'm all for finding out if you're cut out for fighting, but as long as you're reigned in for two years of service and have absent-with-out-leave hanging over your head, I won't be putting myself through that crap just to find out if I can take it.
 

Shock and Awe

Winter is Coming
Sep 6, 2008
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CrikeyO said:
Sporky111 said:
I have no will to join in Canada's Armed Forces. I mean, I'd be fine with defending my country and I support the peacemaking effort, I just don't support the military system in general.

I don't deal with stress well, at all. If I were to be put in a training environment, I'd probably be the one who loses it and end up either going AWOL (and fucking my life over even further) or killing myself.
In my experience it helps if you listen to what your superiors say regarding equipment, drills etc and blank out the insults. In the end, it reflects poorly on them if you fail so they are harsh in a bit to ensure you succeed. I guess their idea is if you can't hack someone screaming in your face, you're probably not going to hack bullets cracking past your ears.

I will admit it was difficult attempting to control my laughter when a sergeant a full foot shorter than me went eyeball to eyeball in an effort to chew me out ...
Same thing in some of the JROTC programs we have here in the states, except funnier in a pathetic way. Some of the cadet commanders(cadres) have probably seen Full Metal Jacket one to many times.

Sporky111 said:
See, that would be fine with me if they would let you leave. I'm all for finding out if you're cut out for fighting, but as long as you're reigned in for two years of service and have absent-with-out-leave hanging over your head, I won't be putting myself through that crap just to find out if I can take it.
If I remember correctly you can quit during basic if you really think that you just aren't cut out for it. I may be wrong though.
 

Infinatex

BLAM!Headshot?!
May 19, 2009
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Nope I haven't and nope I never will. I don't see the point. Our army (Australia) is sent overseas to deal with other peoples problems in countries I couldn't care less about. Why do I want to risk my life to protect them... If we were to be directly attacked I would take up arms to defend my country in a heartbeat.
 

Low Key

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May 7, 2009
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The only reason I never joined the military is because my mom is in a wheelchair and I couldn't leave her for that long, otherwise I probably would be a Marine right now. I knocked all of the aptitude tests out of the park and the physical tests were a breeze and that was when I was smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.
 

Kaymish

The Morally Bankrupt Weasel
Sep 10, 2008
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most defence forces lock their personnel in to contracts up to 20 years some times the rigmarole i had to go through to extricate my self from my 14 year contract was hard enough and i only managed it because i am individually wealthy and managed to get a deal out

the Iraq war has been going on only since 2003 and the grunts that enlisted after it started most likely had no where else to go and need the stability that armies provide

hate on the politicians not the poor people who carry out the orders who have getting shot if they don't hanging over their heads
 

Boba Frag

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Dec 11, 2009
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Konrad Curze said:
Hell no. I will defend my country if it is directly attacked but detest any soldier who goes elsewhere to fuck with some poor other country and its citizens.
To me, if you participate in the war in iraq then you are every bit as guilty as that lying fuck Bush and should be branded a war criminal.

So no, I will never join any armed forces on moral grounds.
That's not really fair on the individual soldiers who, shockingly, are trained and conditioned to follow orders without questioning them.

That's how militaries the world over work. This doesn't leave them with much choice.
If they refuse, then they've basically just shot their careers down and will never see promotion.

I agree with what you're saying, but ultimately it's the leadership that must bear the brunt of the responsibility of the Iraq war.

Look up Generation Kill either on HBO or get the book.
It's quite illuminating as to the opinions of ordinary soldiers on the war- the know they're in the wrong place, but there's next to nothing they can do about it.

Moving back on topic-

I'm Irish (that is, an Irish citizen) and though I'm not in the Defence Forces, I do occasionally visit Collins Barracks in Cork doing research on my MA thesis on Irish peacekeeping ops.
 

KaiRai

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Jun 2, 2008
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I'd quite like to join up after I've finished uni. Although a persistant chest infection my vanquish that idea. Probably mostly influenced by some 70% of all the males in my family have been in at some point.
 

Birdmad

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Mar 19, 2010
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No. Lucky me, girls don't need to join the army! I'm also very thankful my boyfriend haven't joined the army either...
Through Brazil almost never actually goes to wars (we lots of violence going on, though) if the army tried to take him away from me, I guess I'd have to fight them and die or something!
I mean... war traumas, wounds, deaths... I wish no one ever had to face those things!

I don't think the whole nation thing makes sense either... o.õ' always felt like a big make-believe game that everyone agreed on playing. (I don't know if we should stop playing it, though... I'm not sure it's even possible to.)

I mean... it's very strange to me being a brazilian. I don't know most of my country. People from Rio de Janeiro have a different culture from mine, people from Rio Grande do Sul have a different culture from mine, people from Bahia have a different culture from mine, people from the north part of my country... well, you get the idea! o.õ
I mean... what does it mean? (the whole "brazilian" thing...) - besides the fact that I was born in a certain piece of land.

If some country attacked mine I'd have to fight (to keep my house and everything), but I'd rather avoid it.
 

Cody211282

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Apr 25, 2009
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Konrad Curze said:
Hell no. I will defend my country if it is directly attacked but detest any soldier who goes elsewhere to fuck with some poor other country and its citizens.
To me, if you participate in the war in iraq then you are every bit as guilty as that lying fuck Bush and should be branded a war criminal.

So no, I will never join any armed forces on moral grounds.
Yea I would like you to tell that to my friend that over there right now, after you pull your teeth out of the ground you might want to change your mind. you do know only about 20-25% see combat right?


I wouldn't mind joining after I am done with school, probably go in as a medic.
 

Lake Deuteronomy

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Jun 6, 2010
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Konrad Curze said:
Pfft, stupid strawman arguments are weak sauce. You should know better. All it does is erode your own argument and actually makes mine look that much saner.
Hey, hey, whoa, I'm on your side here mate, string em all up and let em hang is what I say!

I just don't think you're going far enough, the military isn't the only branch where we've been letting people get away with things too good for too long. Think of the big picture, think of how much more accountable we could make everyone.

The financial sector for example, Goldman Sachs and all those charlies, they should have known damn well better than what they were doing, and they shouldn't have stood for that shit, just walked out, so what if they lose their bonuses or salaries, it wasn't right to gamble on people's hope and greed like that, then watch it all tumble. When one makes twenty million, and ten thousand people lose, what keeps that one from swallowing a shotgun?

FEMA, trailers laced with formaldehyde for disaster survivors, what the fuck? Someone ought to be taken out back and beat with a pipe wrench over that.

And the Corps of Engineers, I mean, fuck, those levies that didn't just fail when Katrina hit, but actually caused the worst of the flooding, some of them must have known they were doing shonky work, and they should have come forward as whistleblowers rather than wait for it to all fuck up when the hurricane hit. They shouldn't have just stayed silent cause they thought they would lose their jobs, every child who died in that disaster is directly and personally their fault, and they should all be charged for each and every death as if they were mass murderers, which is really what they are.

Speaking from personal experience, when I worked in a delicatessen, and a colleague dropped a handful of shaved premium lite ham on the floor, then proceeded to place it back in the tray for sale like nothing was wrong, I said "No, I've had it with this, and if I stay, I'm just as guilty as them" so I nut punched my guilty and reprehensible colleague, took a dump on my boss's desk and threw in my apron, because I couldn't stand such degrading behaviour.

Like your World War Z example, since so many people here have seen Snakes on a Plane, like Neville Flynn immortalised,

"Enough is enough! I have had it with these motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking plane!"

I do not care what their intentions are either, I just wish they would all get off my motherfucking plane.
 

CrikeyO

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Jul 1, 2009
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Boba Frag said:
Konrad Curze said:
Hell no. I will defend my country if it is directly attacked but detest any soldier who goes elsewhere to fuck with some poor other country and its citizens.
To me, if you participate in the war in iraq then you are every bit as guilty as that lying fuck Bush and should be branded a war criminal.

So no, I will never join any armed forces on moral grounds.
That's not really fair on the individual soldiers who, shockingly, are trained and conditioned to follow orders without questioning them.

That's how militaries the world over work. This doesn't leave them with much choice.
If they refuse, then they've basically just shot their careers down and will never see promotion.

I agree with what you're saying, but ultimately it's the leadership that must bear the brunt of the responsibility of the Iraq war.

Look up Generation Kill either on HBO or get the book.
It's quite illuminating as to the opinions of ordinary soldiers on the war- the know they're in the wrong place, but there's next to nothing they can do about it.

Moving back on topic-

I'm Irish (that is, an Irish citizen) and though I'm not in the Defence Forces, I do occasionally visit Collins Barracks in Cork doing research on my MA thesis on Irish peacekeeping ops.
Could you give me a TL;DR synopsis of why we were in Chad? I know it had something to do with Darfur, but most of my interest in Irish military history ends at the Lebanon.
 

Destal

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Jul 8, 2009
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Been in for nearly 7 years, getting out soon though. I've spent my whole time as National Guard, though occasionally working full time for them. I'm currently a defense contractor.
 

Sporky111

Digital Wizard
Dec 17, 2008
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Shock and Awe said:
Sporky111 said:
See, that would be fine with me if they would let you leave. I'm all for finding out if you're cut out for fighting, but as long as you're reigned in for two years of service and have absent-with-out-leave hanging over your head, I won't be putting myself through that crap just to find out if I can take it.
If I remember correctly you can quit during basic if you really think that you just aren't cut out for it. I may be wrong though.
Well, whether or not that's true I doubt I'm cut out for it anyway. Aside from the issues I already stated, I value individuality too much to join an organization where you must be exactly like everyone else or face severe punishment for it.
 

Shock and Awe

Winter is Coming
Sep 6, 2008
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Konrad Curze said:
Refuse to go. What can they do? Dismiss you? So what? Better being fired than being trash.
Since so many people here have read Max Brooks World War Z you should all know this line. "As a soldier your first duty is to your conscious"
I do not care what their intentions are, even if they go there as friggin army cooks, they are cooking for the bastard soldiers who gun down innocents and blow up hospitals making them accountable as well. Also what good intentions? There were never any good intentions going into Iraq at all. Sure, the completely utterly retarded may buy into the "bringing them democrasy" but if they are stupid enough to believe that then they do not deserve any part in anything that can change or end other peoples lives.
But no, Iraq will not become a "beacon of light" now. After having so many of its citizens butchered, its cities bombed, its economy fucked over and being treated as backwards savages for so many years all that will and has happened is that they have become even more resentful of the west, even more of them have joined the opposition forces and the only way Iraq will now "develop" will be as a US puppet and the people there will always hate the US for stealing their culture and replacing it with their own fucked up one.
Wooooooow, are you trolling? Because you just fulfilled every single stereotype, even if you are, I'll humor you.

1. They do not throw you out for not going. You are thrown in prison, and then thrown out of the military.

2. Your sweeping generalizations of every single serviceman and woman would be funny if it wasn't so ignorant. Do you really believe every sing serviceman that went to Iraq voluntarily went thinking they were going to gun down civilians and such? I guess you never heard of the ROEs that are being enforced in Iraq and Afghanistan; or is the military doing some elaborate cover up that no one has picked up on?

3. I don't think I saw anywhere where the US is trying to change Iraqi culture besides changing the government. Hell, we even made special effort to preserve preexisting Iraqi monuments and Holy Sites. You also apparently seem to be under the delusion that the Iraqi government(which was elected by the Iraqi people) has no power which is far from the truth seeing as if I recall correctly they now give the final word on all domestic matters including involvement of foreign forces.
 

AmayaOnnaOtaku

The Babe with the Power
Mar 11, 2010
990
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Actually refusing to go can get you is serious trouble. court martial, jail time.

warning big ass wall of text

I tried multiple time to get the stupid spoiler box to work but I cannot.


Desertion:

(a) Any member of the armed forces who?

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or

(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another one of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States Note: This provision has been held not to state a separate offense by the United States Court of Military Appeals in United States v. Huff, 7 U.S.C.M.A. 247, 22 C.M.R. 37 (1956), is guilty of desertion.

(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.?

Guide Note: The offense of Desertion, under Article 85, carries a much greater punishment, than the offense of AWOL, under Article 861. Many people believe that if one is absent without authority for greater than 30 days, the offense changes from AWOL to Desertion, but that's not quite true.

The primary difference between the two offenses is "intent to remain away permanently." If one intends to return to "military control," one is guilty of "AWOL," under Article 86, not Desertion, under Article 85, even if they were away for ten years. The confusion derives from the fact that, if a member is absent without authority for longer than 30 days, the government (court-martial) is allowed to assume there was no intent to return. Therefore, the burden of proof that the accused intended to someday return to "military control" lies with the defense.

A person who is absent for just a day or two, then apprehended, could still be charged with the offense of Desertion, but the prosecution would have to show evidence that the accused intended to remain away permanently.

Elements.

(1) Desertion with intent to remain away permanently.

(a) That the accused absented himself or herself from his or her unit, organization, or place of duty;
(b) That such absence was without authority;

(c) That the accused, at the time the absence began or at some time during the absence, intended to remain away from his or her unit, organization, or place of duty permanently; and

(d) That the accused remained absent until the date alleged. Note: If the absence was terminated by apprehension, add the following element

(e) That the accused?s absence was terminated by apprehension.

(2) Desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service.

(a) That the accused quit his or her unit, organization, or other place of duty;
(b) That the accused did so with the intent to avoid a certain duty or shirk a certain service;

(c) That the duty to be performed was hazardous or the service important;

(d) That the accused knew that he or she would be required for such duty or service; and

(e) That the accused remained absent until the date alleged.

(3) Desertion before notice of acceptance of resignation.

(a) That the accused was a commissioned officer of an armed force of the United States, and had tendered his or her resignation;
(b) That before he or she received notice of the acceptance of the resignation, the accused quit his or her post or proper duties;

(c) That the accused did so with the intent to remain away permanently from his or her post or proper duties; and

(d) That the accused remained absent until the date alleged. Note: If the absence was terminated by apprehension, add the following element

(e) That the accused?s absence was terminated by apprehension.
4) Attempted desertion.

(a) That the accused did a certain overt act;
(b) That the act was done with the specific intent to desert;

(c) That the act amounted to more than mere preparation; and

(d) That the act apparently tended to effect the commission of the offense of desertion.

Explanation.

(1) Desertion with intent to remain away permanently.

(a) In general. Desertion with intent to remain away permanently is complete when the person absents himself or herself without authority from his or her unit, organization, or place of duty, with the intent to remain away therefrom permanently. A prompt repentance and return, while material in extenuation, is no defense. It is not necessary that the person be absent entirely from military jurisdiction and control.
(b) Absence without authority ?inception, duration, termination. See paragraph 10c1.

(c) Intent to remain away permanently.

(i) The intent to remain away permanently from the unit, organization, or place of duty may be formed any time during the unauthorized absence. The intent need not exist throughout the absence, or for any particular period of time, as long as it exists at some time during the absence.
(ii) The accused must have intended to remain away permanently from the unit, organization, or place of duty. When the accused had such an intent, it is no defense that the accused also intended to report for duty elsewhere, or to enlist or accept an appointment in the same or a different armed force.

(iii) The intent to remain away permanently may be established by circumstantial evidence. Among the circumstances from which an inference may be drawn that an accused intended to remain absent permanently or; that the period of absence was lengthy; that the accused attempted to, or did, dispose of uniforms or other military property; that the accused purchased a ticket for a distant point or was arrested, apprehended, or surrendered a considerable distance from the accused?s station; that the accused could have conveniently surrendered to military control but did not; that the accused was dissatisfied with the accused?s unit, ship, or with military service; that the accused made remarks indicating an intention to desert; that the accused was under charges or had escaped from confinement at the time of the absence; that the accused made preparations indicative of an intent not to return (for example, financial arrangements), or that the accused enlisted or accepted an appointment in the same or another armed force without disclosing the fact that the accused had not been regularly separated, or entered any foreign armed service without being authorized by the United States. On the other hand, the following are included in the circumstances which may tend to negate an inference that the accused intended to remain away permanently: previous long and excellent service; that the accused left valuable personal property in the unit or on the ship; or that the accused was under the influence of alcohol or drugs during the absence. These lists are illustrative only.

(iv) Entries on documents, such as personnel accountability records, which administratively refer to an accused as a ?deserter? are not evidence of intent to desert.

(v) Proof of, or a plea of guilty to, an unauthorized absence, even of extended duration, does not, without more, prove guilt of desertion.

(d) Effect of enlistment or appointment in the same or a different armed force. Article 85a(3) does not state a separate offense. Rather, it is a rule of evidence by which the prosecution may prove intent to remain away permanently. Proof of an enlistment or acceptance of an appointment in a service without disclosing a preexisting duty status in the same or a different service provides the basis from which an inference of intent to permanently remain away from the earlier unit, organization, or place of duty may be drawn. Furthermore, if a person, without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces, enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another armed force, the person?s presence in the military service under such an enlistment or appointment is not a return to military control and does not terminate any desertion or absence without authority from the earlier unit or organization, unless the facts of the earlier period of service are known to military authorities. If a person, while in desertion, enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another armed force, and deserts while serving the enlistment or appointment, the person may be tried and convicted for each desertion.

(2) Quitting unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service.a) Hazardous duty or important service. ?Hazardous duty? or ?important service? may include service such as duty in a combat or other dangerous area; embarkation for certain foreign or sea duty; movement to a port of embarkation for that purpose; entrainment for duty on the border or coast in time of war or threatened invasion or other disturbances; strike or riot duty; or employment in aid of the civil power in, for example, protecting property, or quelling or preventing disorder in times of great public disaster. Such services as drill, target practice, maneuvers, and practice marches are not ordinarily ?hazardous duty or important service.? Whether a duty is hazardous or a service is important depends upon the circumstances of the particular case, and is a question of fact for the court-martial to decide.
(b) Quits. ?Quits? in Article 85 means ?goes absent without authority.?

(c) Actual knowledge. Article 85 a(2) requires proof that the accused actually knew of the hazardous duty or important service. Actual knowledge may be proved by circumstantial evidence.

(3) Attempting to desert. Once the attempt is made, the fact that the person desists, voluntarily or otherwise, does not cancel the offense. The offense is complete, for example, if the person, intending to desert, hides in an empty freight car on a military reservation, intending to escape by being taken away in the car. Entering the car with the intent to desert is the overt act. For a more detailed discussion of attempts, see paragraph 41. For an explanation concerning intent to remain away permanently, see sub-paragraph 9c(1)(c).

(4) Prisoner with executed punitive discharge. A prisoner whose dismissal or dishonorable or bad-conduct discharge has been executed is not a ?member of the armed forces? within the meaning of Articles 85 or 86, although the prisoner may still be subject to military law under Article 2(a)(7)2. If the facts warrant, such a prisoner could be charged with escape from confinement under Article 953, or an offense under Article 1344.

Lesser ncluded offense.

Article 865?absence without leave

Maximum punishment.

(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.

(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.