Isn't that true of an MMO too? I mean I was always bored to tears with MMOs unless I had friends to party with. Guilds are ok but strangers are by definition strange and don't really compare to playing with people you know.Gearran said:
Eve Online good or bad?
- Thread starter honeymonster
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I completely agree with that I found myself drifting away from it as various people I knew on it started to leave to pastures new (WoW) which does begn to take some of the fun element away from it mining in space with no one to talk to or arrange large scale events can kinda take some of the joy away from it.Gearran said:
For me, it was the shin-kicking combat of EVE that drove me away.
Had combat been something more tactical or skill-based, I probably would still be playing it. Perhaps Battlestar Galactica has set my standard too high for how space combat should be.
Had combat been something more tactical or skill-based, I probably would still be playing it. Perhaps Battlestar Galactica has set my standard too high for how space combat should be.
I advise everyone to try it. Find a good corp and you'll have lots of fun. Compared with other mmos you can actually achieve something other than fancy new armor which you spent hours doing the same thing over and over again to get. Make an effort to get into pvp, its what the game does far better than any other mmo.
Straw Man. That's like saying parkour and walking are the same thing as they're basically moving your legs.mipegg said:
In FPSs you gotta aim, you gotta use the environment, you gotta assess a situation and make split second decisions. In MMOs you have to press the same 2 - 3 buttons over, and over, and over the fuck again till someone dies. FPSes come down to strategy and precision, MMOs come down to who spent the longest grinding.
That is the best advice that can really be given about any game really don't listen to reviews or other peoples opinions unless its pretty unanimous that its a failure and try it out yourself and form your own ideas.DeusFps said:
eve is ok but after about a day or two continuously mining then killing somthing and gradually getting better stuff gets boring, its to slow, boring and complicated to be popular
Oh, it's on now. I'm a fairly experienced player who was willing to put in the time and effort involved to learning how to play it which (again because I'm a fairly experienced player) wasn't all that hard for me. Furthermore, I can figure out what's so cool about EVE Online's capacity to allow players to build their own economic empires and fly a ship around a gigantic universe.mipegg said:
Still, I could recognize that EVE Online had some major problems that were insurmountable for me.
Problem 1: The gameplay was definitively uninvolved.
I've used the George Jetson analogy, and that's a pretty good one: every time he goes to work, he just lays back and pushes a button because it's the future and machines do everything for him. It's important to understand that this is how EVE Online plays.
In other games (not so much MMOGs) you might be aiming your guns or have some kind of important thing you can do to succeed. In EVE Online, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion about whether you succeed based on how you built your ship, and your involvement as a player is pretty much relegated to pushing a button and waiting.
Take your average combat engagement. Instruct your ship to stay at optimum range, turn on the devices you turn on during combat, and sit back and wait until one of you dies, maybe using some "emergency tools" if you have them installed, but even then, the involvement is way down. Yahtzee was spot on in pointing this out about 2 minutes, 37 seconds in [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online], as it is a critical weakness in a game that seeks to be a game. Even the best players will spend more thought tweaking their ship configurations, avoiding detection, and trying to figure out if they'll win a fight than actually fighting.
Combat is pretty much the most interactive thing you'll do. Me, I made the most money mining, which was even less involving: turn on beams, sit, watch your radar for players who are so unbelievably bored that they'd die to Corsec security performing suicide attacks on miners. I did try a bit of mission running that involved combat, stated myself up for some liberal salvaging, but that's pretty much it.
EVE Online has some deep gameplay, but that gameplay is nearly entirely hands-off economic in focus. You decide where the most profit is to be made, how to put together the best shop, ect. Though some concession has been made to try to make the game interesting for the rest of us, EVE Online was launched as a game for the businessman within, and it remains that way at the core. Epic clashes of fleets piloted by hundreds of players are the most epic thing to happen in EVE, and it's not because of the tactics involved, but the ISK (money): when ships are lost, the insurance barely covers any of it.
Problem 2: No matter how good of a player I am, I'm not catching up to the veterans.
EVE Online has made the usual mistake in MMORPGs that it's not a matter of how good of a player you are, it's a matter of how much time you're willing to invest in it. In game, the only purpose you, the player, serve is in making credits and the difference between a good player or a bad player will be how good you are at figuring out ways to do this quickly. That's the upshot - the downside is that, because you earn skills from just waiting - even logged out - the difference between a player capable of piloting (let alone affording) the most effective ships in the game will be somebody who has spent a massive amount of time subscribed.
It ultimately comes off as a gigantic money-making scheme on behalf of EVE's developers, like some kind of Scientology variant without the tax evasion. If you want to ascend to level 30 asskicker, thou must tithe 30 months of subscription and remember to log in periodically to grind credits and set the next skill learning. It's a little worse than Scientology in that I can't just dump a billion dollars on them (as if I had that money) to be the next messiah. There's nothing for me to do but stay subscribed for 30 months and wait.
Meanwhile, during these 30 months as I play an impossible game of catchup, I'm basically every other player's *****. If I wander into 0.0 space (of which the majority of the game is made up of) I'll probably find one of those players so bored of the game that they PK people to try to justify their time expenditure, who instantly explode my shop, pop my pod, and hope that I'll act like I care so they can get some momentary glee in their drab lives.
Problem 3: You can get around some of this, but you have to go rely on strangers
Call me a fellow with trust issues, but this isn't too far removed from the truth. The thing is, if you "join a good corp", yes, you can get around a lot of these issues. It'll feel more involving if you're in a group, and veterans can hardly ground you under their heel if you have other veterans watching your back.
The only trouble is that corps are all about being business partners trusting eachother with eachother's resources and money. That'd be great if I knew a bunch of chaps I wanted to hang around with enough to trust the spoils of dozens of hours of asteroid smashing with, but I don't.
So, like the rest of the Internet, EVE Online is something you'd have to be a Something Awful Goon to enjoy. [/Partial [http://goonfleet.com/] Comic Exaggeration]
Altogether, these problems are the reason why I hesitate to put EVE Online in the "good" category. However, it does indeed remain good if a game that doesn't require you play, which rewards your time expenditure directly, and which rewards large scale player cooperation, is something you want. As for me, I'd rather play a good single player game than EVE Online any day of the week.
There are the odd things that I could counter you on, and not in a fanboy way, but you are the first poster on this forum to give such a detailed account as to why EVE isn't for you, and for that I salute you.
At least you gave the thing a go.
At least you gave the thing a go.
And I could probably counter your odd counters, but I salute your high class reply.
I actually played for about 2 months, so I gave it a pretty good shake. I probably wouldn't have lasted that long, but I actually like the economic side of the game.
It was ultimately knowing that it would be over a year before I could even hold a torch to a veteran player that shut me down. Even with a massive investment in the right core attributes and cyberware, it would take months of waiting to get the necessary skills to be in a competing tier. Even then, if it came down to a clash of the titans, these guys have whole warehouses full of disposable ships that compare to my best, most irreplaceable ship.
It's an inadvertently realistic free capitalism sim in that the rich keep getting richer and those that follow are just feeding them in their impossible struggle to reach the top. Nearly every single unit of ISK you make in that game is from selling something to somebody who can sell it for more than you can because they're sitting on a lot more skills and credits. The ISK that bought the dreadnought that blew me up at the 0.0 gate may just have been earned through my dealings with his corp mates.
[edit] Fabulous economic sim, incredible dynamic universe, but how is this a game I'm being invited to enjoy?!
I actually played for about 2 months, so I gave it a pretty good shake. I probably wouldn't have lasted that long, but I actually like the economic side of the game.
It was ultimately knowing that it would be over a year before I could even hold a torch to a veteran player that shut me down. Even with a massive investment in the right core attributes and cyberware, it would take months of waiting to get the necessary skills to be in a competing tier. Even then, if it came down to a clash of the titans, these guys have whole warehouses full of disposable ships that compare to my best, most irreplaceable ship.
It's an inadvertently realistic free capitalism sim in that the rich keep getting richer and those that follow are just feeding them in their impossible struggle to reach the top. Nearly every single unit of ISK you make in that game is from selling something to somebody who can sell it for more than you can because they're sitting on a lot more skills and credits. The ISK that bought the dreadnought that blew me up at the 0.0 gate may just have been earned through my dealings with his corp mates.
[edit] Fabulous economic sim, incredible dynamic universe, but how is this a game I'm being invited to enjoy?!
Very true, the rich do get richer and until you can invest, this is where you are stuck. The old roads for high profit were removed as well - Tech 2 BPO's, if you won one off the lottery, would transform you into a billionaire almost overnight. Now unless you already have a few billion you cannot get one.geldonyetich said:
Also, Goonswarm. I hate them with a passion, as do most of SA forums from what I have heard.
Like I said, in theory: awesome. Good luck being able to pirate a monkey before you invest a good month into not playing the game.Bulletinmybrain said:
well this thread confirms what I've been telling myself all along, create a FAQ EVE copypasta to insert into threads such as this. Quick answer to some of the precious questions.
and my one comment on the goons: Bwwwaaaaaa, you got scammed/killed/blown up. Be smarter and learn from your mistakes. If your jet can got flipped and somone blew you up, guess what? your never going to do that again. If somone says: give me 100mill and I'll let you join my corp. Chances are its a scam.
Combat: if your in an interceptor and hit approach and activate your weapons, chances are your going to get blown up on your approach. You have to think of transversal speeds, if your target has heavy neuts, meds, or nos. what kind of ships he has, including if he has a web bonus. If he has drones and how to avoid them. If the target is getting back to the gate and about to jump out, or is he bait for a larger fleet.
Unlike most MMOs eve does require brains, and is not just click and F1-Fx
Don't catch up, beat them in other ways. You can be piloting the OMGWTFBBQPWN Battleship, and be locked down and tackled by a 3 day old n00b and watch as your passive tank gets pecked away.
sitting and doing NPC missions IS uninvolved. Don't treat them as the be all and end all of a game. Get involved. Join Corps, Join an alliance, Cause some havoc. Also plotting the destruction of entire enemy capital fleets is fun, doing it is better.
Again the: I must catch up with pros and therefore must train to fly a mothership from day one. Don't fall into this trap. Find something you love doing and do it. For example I'm a 4,5 year player of eve, and I can't fly a capital ship. I still fly around interceptors and interdictors because they are a TON of fun. Everyone likes the guy who brings a faction fitted DPS monster on the field, but everyone LOVES the guy in the interceptor who is tackling hostiles and actually getting kills.
and my one comment on the goons: Bwwwaaaaaa, you got scammed/killed/blown up. Be smarter and learn from your mistakes. If your jet can got flipped and somone blew you up, guess what? your never going to do that again. If somone says: give me 100mill and I'll let you join my corp. Chances are its a scam.
Combat: if your in an interceptor and hit approach and activate your weapons, chances are your going to get blown up on your approach. You have to think of transversal speeds, if your target has heavy neuts, meds, or nos. what kind of ships he has, including if he has a web bonus. If he has drones and how to avoid them. If the target is getting back to the gate and about to jump out, or is he bait for a larger fleet.
Unlike most MMOs eve does require brains, and is not just click and F1-Fx
I'm actually hoping the opposite for the WoD, I'd hate to be in a purely player driven world because that would mean either 1) Players can be ridiculous things from the WoD and thus kicking all rarity in the balls. 2) It abandons the insane amount of lore behind it w/out a ton of NPCs.Singing Gremlin said:
I'm hoping it plays out more like VtM: Bloodlines. Which if you think about it is very MMORPG like in nature already and was an amazing game.
Oh, so this guy thinks I'm some kind of idiot who negative opinions about EVE are so badly reasoned that they can be solved by a stupid FAQs file. It's on again.Robert0288 said:
Yeah, like I'm going to take the Cruiser I earned in 3 days and go trying to gank people in Battleships. Never mind I'm blasting myself back to day 1 if I fail, the question is why would I want to do this? Even if I were so suicidally inclined to transform my one and only good ship into a homicidal pinata for the other players to break, what would it accomplish? Even if it could accomplish something, hoping that they're using some kind of exploitable configuration like a badly built passive tank is wishful thinking.
When I say that I want to be a match for the veteran players, I just mean I want to be able to be treated with casual respect by them. Currently, new players are pretty much playthings of the veteran players, and the way EVE Online is built they were remain that way for years of real subscription time, with no way around it other than joining a corp - which is essentially choosing to be a lackey.
Already explained why that's not an option for me.
You're not getting it. I'm not complaining about not being able to pwn everybody on day one, I'm complaining about being able to match the raw power from the economic bases and character skill sets of people who had 4.5 years of grinding and skill gain in front of me, EVER, no matter how good of a player I am.
For new players like me, I'm a second class citizen, nothing more. If you can't shift your perspective to mine well enough to understand why being a second hand citizen is problematic, then you're going to be perpetually surprised why EVE has such a hard time picking up new players.
You can sit there and say, "well, I'm not my problem, I wasn't late to the party" if you want, but what happens is eventually your game dies from lack of new blood. Right now, you've 4.5 years of power accumulated in broken game - congratulations. Have fun engaging in border conflicts with the other masters of broken game, because it sure won't interest me.
Personally, I've never fallen for any scams or even got blown up in my two months of play because I've been playing MMORPGs for decades and I could see a scam or a player maneuvering to kamikaze me in Corsec space from a long way off. However, these things can and do happen, and when they happen, it could be months of a newbie's progress down the tube and that's all that was keeping them playing the game.
Go "waawaa" at them all you want - players abused like this are likely to quit, consequently new blood dries up, your game remains broken, and you get to take your 4.5 years of power accumulation to a ghost town. Go on, keep blaming the carebears for that.
I've tried to remain optimistic thus far towards EVE Online because it does achieve some fairly impressive things in the dynamic world economy aspect. However, if that's what you call a copy/paste FAQs that defends EVE Online, you might want to toss it in the recycle bin and try straining your neurons instead. As it is, your cut/paste job just made EVE Online look far worse than we started.
I could drag this out of the toilet a bit by saying that maybe we should just let go of aspirations to ever be a match for players who were playing EVE long before we started... but that doesn't make me feel better. "It's okay, you're a loser at this game because you were born a loser of this game, but that's just how it's played. Have fun with it!" That sort of brings a new meaning to "epic fail" as some kind of game genre that takes place in an epic universe in which you're supposed to fail.
what I meant by copy paste, is that with every one of these threads it is the same cons being brought forth over and over again.
The majority of new content and new skills comming out are skills which do not heavily effect the outcome of smaller battles, skills or even stats. There is no billion isk skill which grants you immunity from other players. Most vets who've been playing a long time are training things like carrier lvl5, Hybrid weapon specialization to 5, fleet command lvl 5 etc. They are spending their time training to get that extra 2% points in damage on their T2 guns which might take 35 days. Meanwhile people can still get Large Hybrids to a usable level rediculasly fast now. When I started skill needed to be all at level 5 before you can use T2. Now most skills are at the lvl4 level (saves you between 5-35 days).
EVE's skill system has been changed so that you can still use mods fast, but not to their 100% level unless you want to invest serious time. Example: heavy interdictors. Their bubble @ level one is something like 12km which is really tiny, if you train this skill to level 5 the bubble size gets to 24ish KM. While you can fly the ship at level one to use it to its peak takes a time investment.
Also it is very possible to take on people when your new. Grab a rifter or tristan, head into low sec, meet some of the local inhabitants, get to know who are the pies, who are the residents, what they fly, etc... Look for contacts and go nuts. Corps in the area will make note of you, and might invite you to join them.
#1 rule in eve: don't fly what you can't lose. Don't use cruisers with the most expensive stuff, especially don't use them for pvp. Join one of agony unleashed PVP groups; heck ask if you can join them.
CVA space + space holders are filled with people who do not shoot people on site and are very willing to bring in new blood. Join faction warefare, ask some of the corps activily running ops to go with them, ask if you can join.
Trust is an important part, Just make sure to keep all your stuff in your own hanger, and just be fully aware that YES, people CAN steal from you. Be suspicious. Just don't be paralyzed by it.
You wont be god at the begining, you wont be god at the end. But along the way you will meet a ton of great people, have fun flying and hopefully kill other people, and or build an empire along the way. If that is failing at a game, I really do want to know what winning is
The majority of new content and new skills comming out are skills which do not heavily effect the outcome of smaller battles, skills or even stats. There is no billion isk skill which grants you immunity from other players. Most vets who've been playing a long time are training things like carrier lvl5, Hybrid weapon specialization to 5, fleet command lvl 5 etc. They are spending their time training to get that extra 2% points in damage on their T2 guns which might take 35 days. Meanwhile people can still get Large Hybrids to a usable level rediculasly fast now. When I started skill needed to be all at level 5 before you can use T2. Now most skills are at the lvl4 level (saves you between 5-35 days).
EVE's skill system has been changed so that you can still use mods fast, but not to their 100% level unless you want to invest serious time. Example: heavy interdictors. Their bubble @ level one is something like 12km which is really tiny, if you train this skill to level 5 the bubble size gets to 24ish KM. While you can fly the ship at level one to use it to its peak takes a time investment.
This I don't understand, When I started I got recruited out of the rookie help channel, because I was asking questions, and helping answer stuff I already knew. when I joined my corp, they asked me what I wanted to do, showed me how to get there, and helped me out, splitting mind minerals helping in missions etc... I do this to new guys in our alliance all the time. I know TONS of people that will go out of their way to help a new guy out.
Also it is very possible to take on people when your new. Grab a rifter or tristan, head into low sec, meet some of the local inhabitants, get to know who are the pies, who are the residents, what they fly, etc... Look for contacts and go nuts. Corps in the area will make note of you, and might invite you to join them.
#1 rule in eve: don't fly what you can't lose. Don't use cruisers with the most expensive stuff, especially don't use them for pvp. Join one of agony unleashed PVP groups; heck ask if you can join them.
CVA space + space holders are filled with people who do not shoot people on site and are very willing to bring in new blood. Join faction warefare, ask some of the corps activily running ops to go with them, ask if you can join.
Trust is an important part, Just make sure to keep all your stuff in your own hanger, and just be fully aware that YES, people CAN steal from you. Be suspicious. Just don't be paralyzed by it.
You wont be god at the begining, you wont be god at the end. But along the way you will meet a ton of great people, have fun flying and hopefully kill other people, and or build an empire along the way. If that is failing at a game, I really do want to know what winning is
Pardon the editing earlier.
I suppose if a player is happy enough to accept that their power base will never match that of a player whose been at it for longer than them, that's fine. We could always play as Star Trek-esque space captains who feel content to help out in their own small ways. Sure, we'll get popped like a bubble by bored veteran players, but we can pretend and have fun doing it.
Fair enough, I often lose sight that the journey is the important thing.Robert0288 said:You wont be god at the begining, you wont be god at the end. But along the way you will meet a ton of great people, have fun flying and hopefully kill other people, and or build an empire along the way. If that is failing at a game, I really do want to know what winning is
I suppose if a player is happy enough to accept that their power base will never match that of a player whose been at it for longer than them, that's fine. We could always play as Star Trek-esque space captains who feel content to help out in their own small ways. Sure, we'll get popped like a bubble by bored veteran players, but we can pretend and have fun doing it.
You want a better shipCoziestPigeon said:
You need money to buy a better ship
Missions=>Money
You must mission for money, to buy a better ship/fit it.
Now moving on, if you actually stuck with the agent you get mission chains to break up the flow. Like right now I am at 7.5 with a level 1 agent and I barely see the 6 or so start-up missions. Because maybe the agent would like to test your prowess before giving you big jobs?
Depends, if someone is using laser weapons then I could kill them fairly easy even if they outmatch me in vessel class.(By not much.) by stealing his capacitor, lasers use huge amounts of capacitor, I steal all of his capacitor, he can't laser me. He loses.geldonyetich said:Pardon the editing earlier.
Fair enough, I often lose sight that the journey is the important thing.Robert0288 said:You wont be god at the begining, you wont be god at the end. But along the way you will meet a ton of great people, have fun flying and hopefully kill other people, and or build an empire along the way. If that is failing at a game, I really do want to know what winning is
I suppose if a player is happy enough to accept that their power base will never match that of a player whose been at it for longer than them, that's fine. We could always play as Star Trek-esque space captains who feel content to help out in their own small ways. Sure, we'll get popped like a bubble by bored veteran players, but we can pretend and have fun doing it.
This isn't necessarily true. There are several MMOs out there that are great to play as solo games. Part of the draw of MMOs is that you CAN play with other people, not that it's a requirement (in fact, I'm one of those bizarre creatures that enjoys being able to play an online game on my own, which makes my earlier statement all the more surprising), yet the fact that EVE Online can survive with this possibility metamorphosed into an actual requirement for enjoyment demonstrates that, in the right setting, it is a wonderful, engrossing game.NovaStalker said: