Fallout 3 did not ruin the lore established in previous games.

[MaulYoda]

Fallout tactics doesn't really exist, 95% of what was said in it was never treated canon by ether interplay or Bethesda.

the only thing from tactics that actually happened is that some BoS members were exiled and ended up in Chicago, and even only that is true because of Bethesda.

Not quite. Major events in Tactics happened, while some minor events did not necessarily happen. The only game that doesn't exist in Fallout lore is FOBOS. And yes, that's only true because of Bethesda. Bethesda owns the series, they get to decide what's canon and what's not, even if they don't really know enough to make fair judgments in all areas (Fallout 3 should be semi canon like Tactics, but it's not)

The core of Fallout is choices and consequences in quests, around the theme of rebuilding the world. That's what is important and that is what Bethesda ignored.

Choice and consequence is more of a general theme of RPGs. Fallout just did it REALLY well (that is, 1, 2, and New Vegas, not 3)

around the theme of rebuilding the world.

No it isn;t, in fact it is the exact opposite, its about how humans are destined to destroy ourselves, and the world around us time and time again.

Its Fallout's motto "war, war never changes"

Rebuilding has never been important to Fallout in anything other then a means to destroy it again.

Its why even in New Veags the NCR shows signs of collapsing, and both Marucs and House claim Caesar's legion is just going to fall apart shortly after he dies.[/quote]That's not quite what the saying means. It more refers to the fact that while the players and technology might change, the nature of war, the reasons it is fought, do not. That people continually fight for the same reasons they always did, and no conflict is never in that sense

As for rebuilding, you're right it's not necessarily a theme, but it was the general progression the series was taking. Fallout 1 showed society had begun rebuilding since the Great War, and Fallout 2 expanded on this, showing a more rebuilt society. New Vegas continued this, while Fallout 3 made society look like it had only been 50 years since the Great War. Which would've been fine if Fallout 3 had been set in 2127, but that wasn't the case

 

[Nomanslander]

Let's go point by point here:

1. For starters, construction on Vault 87 began in 2066 and ended in 2071. FEV was first developed four years after; hell, the Pan Immunity Viron Project, which became FEV, didn't even start until 2073. So how did Vault Tec build a vault that revolved around something that hadn't even been created yet?


Original intentions for the Vault 87 dropped in favor of testing FEV which seemed more interesting.

If that doesn't immediately undermine the existence of Vault 87, then what about the fact that human testing of FEV didn't seem succesful until 2076, at which point the military was told to construct a base, Mariposa, for this purpose. And upon Mariposa's construction in 2077, ALL FEV research was moved there. So tell me why the US government would spend more money reformatting Vault 87 to become an FEV experiment lab (because if it was already built, it had a different role in the experiment, which raises the question why they would change the role to begin with)

They find the results for the original experiment not so productive or the result were concluded and they choice to start experimenting with Vault 87 differently. And if money is an issue, you really have no clue how stupid governments are in spending the tax payers money on B.S.

Also not all FEV research. They made alteration to FEV and wanted to see what the results would be, hence why the mutties from Vault 87 are so different. In any experiment, there's always hundreds of different alterations made for testing to see different results. Or another words I bet all over American and Canada there's dozens of Vault 87 like vaults experimenting different alterations of FEV to see what other results were made. All this info classified then to the highest authority.


when they've been spending money on the war with China, the development of a number of technologies, mining what little oil is left, and already built an FEV research center and spent $645 billion on the vaults? Or tell me how Vault Tec got a hold of FEV if it was moved to Mariposa and if it was so secret that even some of the soldiers at Mariposa didn't know testing was going on?

It's called compartmentalization, I use to be in the Navy, so I use to be part of that system. You have several different people doing separate jobs, and no one knowing exactly what the mission details pertain. All I knew was I had to load bombs onto an F-14 and they went and bombed something. ALL militarys and governments work that way.


I mean, Vault Tec was a big corporation, but so was West Tek (who reluctantly gave up the research as it was), and the military is pretty powerful too. The point at which they would definitely know about it is in February 2077 when FEV research was leaked, but then they'd be months behind Mariposa by the time they got Vault 87 refitted, so what's the point.

Any results can prove to be valuable.

Let's also remember that Vault Tec wouldn't have had the military prisoners that Mariposa used for human testing. Vault 87 would be empty until the Great War, so how could Vault Tec test any modifications they made to the FEV?

Don't you think the vaults were experimented on with living test subjects before hand to make sure they could sustain a community after the bombs fell? Well there you go! lol


What, did they just blindly modify FEV without testing the results on anything before this?

Test researchers do it all the time.NO REALLY!


That seems stupid, especially when Mariposa was testing and achieving success with the FEV modifications they made, so what would be the purpose of starting from scratch and making inferior modifications?

RESULTS, any result might prove valuable.

Unless you want to argue that the FEV in Vault 87 is the same as the FEV in Mariposa, but then the super mutants shouldn't be stupid.

I'm not!

Vault 87 was full of vault dwellers, people untouched by post-war radiation (the radiation from the nuke outside the vault didn't seep in), and the Master concluded that these kinds of people made for the best and most intelligent super mutants; that's why he was going after Vault 13. So if Vault 87 used this strand, the super mutants in Fallout 3 should all look the same as those in the first two games and New Vegas, as well as be incredibly intelligent. But that's not the case.

That's the Masters, West Tek and Vault Tek and the Government wouldn't care, they'd rather throw darts around blindly til one hit bullseye.

So what is it? Did they used the same strand and it's inconsistent with how FEV works? Or were they given the base strand that Mariposa received before modifications were made and asked to modify it themselves, which wouldn't serve much of a purpose, not to mention they did a horrible job? Of course, them doing a horrible job would result in the mutants being stupid, but they're even less intelligent than the least intelligent of mutants in the first two games. So how do the Vault 87 mutants form an organized fighting force, train themselves in weapon use, replicate the FEV transformation process with captives, and do it all without an intelligent leader like the Master in Fallout 1 or some intelligent super mutant (because they lock up Fawkes)?

They were intelligent? Honestly, how hard is it to pick up a gun, point and shoot? The vault 87 mutants were a scattered miss/mass band of wanderers that went around blindly terrorizing the capital waste. Not exactly an army there.

Speaking of Fawkes, why is it that he has been a super mutant for 200 years and yet hasn't grown to behemoth size? And why specifically did he retain his intelligence?


There's always a black sheep to every experiment. Look at any scientific research that's been done in ANY field and you'd see how somehow different results are produced even when the exact same measures are taking. Especially with live subjects.

ETC ETC ETC

Honestly, it seems like you're taking every measure to argue against any possibilities in Vault 87 being plusable and not for the sake of logic. Instead, for the sake of bashing on the idea with great prejudice.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

3. We don't know how Eden was able to contact the West coast, furthermore the Oil rig was able to minor the vaults despite the communications cut, and the vault system was DESIGNED to fail by its nature, ofc it went offline, it most likely NEVER worked in the first place.

This depends upon, in part, what you think the purpose of the vault network was. Even if you assume experimentation, that data is of no use without a way to collect it. The vault communication network provided a means to collect said data and direct it to the one vault that was not part of the experiment: vault 0.

5. Yes and? I'm not sure of the point you were trying to make here.

If there existed a mechanism of communication, you would not send data by courier. Nor would you send data by courior to a group that was wiped out 30 years prior.

Except DT makes all heavy armor in New Vegas pointless.

It doesn't, really. At least not in the base game. With the heaviest "light" armor, you get up to about 18 DT - sufficient to mitigate all damage (save for the 1 that always leaks through) from all .22 weapons, 9mm weapons, and shotguns. Anything heavier (the common cowboy repeater for example) makes it through easily and powerful weapons (like the reasonably common brush gun or hunting revolver) ignore the armor entirely.

It was one of the biggest complaints about New Vegas, it got splattered all over the Fallout forums.

Heavy armor caps your DT at around 45 or so in the base game, sufficient to ignore most damage from all common weapons found in the game. Even brush guns and hunting revolvers have limited effect upon T51b which leaves only attacks that bypass DT (rippers, chainsaws, deathclaws, etc).

DT makes anything except light armor 100% pointless.

Actually, I'd argue that DT makes medium armor pointless. The advantages of light armor are not fully realized without the DLC where increasingly protective light armor can be found and new perks are given. Certain light armor sets provide enormous bonuses (the Lonesome Road dusters for example) or are incredibly protective (The Burned Man's clothing for example). Couple that with new perks and light armor becomes incredibly attractive. Additionally, given that the heaviest armor is relatively difficult to come by and is only available late in the game (Power armor is hard to come by and enclave armor is only available at the end and even then only if you fulfilled a number of requirements leading to that point). Still, with the heavy armor related perks, heavy armor becomes even more protective making you all but immune to energy weapons as well.

By contrast, there are no perks to make medium armor more attractive save for the fact that in the DLC armor is available that is nearly as protective as heavy but it allows for slightly better mobility.

As far as the perception that they are unnecessary in general, I'd argue that at level 50, armor has no purpose. You are capable of killing anything in such short order that getting hit regularly is hardly a problem. Light armor is thus only favorable because it directly aids the task of killing and navigating through use of perks. Beyond that, the choice of armor is basically one of style more than anything.

 

[Studsmack]

As much as people hate on Bethesda for "ruining the lore" lets take a good look at how Interplay/Obsidian was taking the west coast storyline.

On the West Caost
-Super Mutants? almost completely gone
-Ghouls? almost completely gone
-Enclave? gone
-BoS? dieing out at an extreme rate

If we look at the overall storyline of Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas a clear patterns emerges. Interplay had been systematically killing off everything that made Fallout... well.... Fallout.

Had Interplay been allowed to continue to Fallout series there would be nothing Fallout left in it by the time Fallout 5 got around, it would just be
-Normal Humans
-Mutant monsters

In Fallout New Vegas super mutants, enclave, and BoS felt like Easter eggs in their own game.

People Hate on Bethesda for ruining the Fallout lore by making a new source of super mutants, bringing back the Enclave, and making a larger BoS but that whats made Fallout 3... FUN.

Bethesda may have "ruined the lore" with Fallout 3, but they only had to do that because Interplay was driving the series into a creative pit by destroying everything that made their series unique.

Ok I just want to stress that I mean no offence by fallowing statement. But I think you hit an oil field when you where mining for gold. What I mean by that was that would be a good answer but not to this question.

What I think this answers best is "why are triple A games becoming Stagnant?" And the answer simply people don't' want them to change. I mean all the changes in Fallout NV kind of make sense.

There are only so many Ghouls and Super Mutants that can be exist, so they will die off in time. The Enclave and BOS kind of saw them self's as "above" the rest of the human race, and those groups don't tend to do well over time. And yes the BOS is better Enclave, but they do sill see them self's as better. IE, "We hold knowledge they must never have."

Everything they did had a reason behind it and good one at that, so it needed to change it couldn't stay the same. I would rather them evolve the story then invent contrivances to make things the same as they where before. And if you are relay resistant to it changing like this then you can't complain when things become stagnant. If you are ok with things never changing ok ignore this but if you don't like that then, well this is part of the problem.

I liked what Sajuuk had to say and agree with it for the most part, but Eddie does have a point. What I think Fallout 3 helped with was introduce the Fallout universe to gamers who didn't know what the heck Fallout was for the PC. I was fortunate enough to know, myself, but there are younger players now who have taken a liking to Fallout's established lore that Fallout 3 helped revive after the series' prolonged hiatus.

I think having New Vegas after Fallout 3 by the originators was the smartest thing Bethesda could have done. Fallout 3 is the nostalgic fan-service the community needed, while New Vegas helped progress and evolve the lore of the Fallout universe.

That said, I'm really holding out hope for something extraordinary in the next Fallout. If it's even the slightest upgrade similar in change from Oblivion (eh.) to Skyrim (woo!), I'll be a happy gamer.

 

[Nomanslander]

2. To Bethesda's credit, they explained why the BOS were soft. It's just that the reasoning didn't make a lot of sense. I mean, Lyons is trying to help people by fighting the super mutants, right? Well, instead of sending his soldiers out to die in battle and wasting resources, why doesn't he hoard everyone up in the Citadel and focus on Liberty Prime? I'm pretty sure that would get it running much faster, and then he could use it against the super mutants. Plus, fixing Liberty Prime would help the BOS by giving them technology, so it wouldn't piss off the Outcasts

Because there was probably always a chance the Scribes could never get Liberty Prime to work properly, and Lyons knew he couldn't place too much fate in that project.

Or, why doesn't Lyons do some scouting, conclude Vault 87 (whose location is listed on the giant map in the Citadel) is the source of the super mutants and attack it. Or at least conclude it's an area of high super mutant activity and attack it, discovering it's the source in the process. And hey, wouldn't the GECK that the terminal in the Citadel says Vault 87 has be a reason to check it out anyway? And couldn't that also lead to Lyons discovering the source of the super mutants, destroying it, and acquiring a piece of technology that could also be used to help people? Wouldn't that be better than just sending his troops in random assaults (in T-45d power armor no less, not the vastly superior T-51b armor that they'd have brought over from the West Coast) or fixing a radio station and generally wasting resources, causing a schism amongst his followers, the West Coast BOS to cut ties, and undermining is whole effort? I think it would

Limited time, limited resources, and poor decision making. Plus, there's the Enclave in all this, and the interfighting between the two factions added with the fact that half of his forces decided to leave because he decided to abandon a lot of BoS protocols... well... you get the point.


3. Because McDonald's is a giant franchise, and we live in a globalized world where giant franchises can spread to other countries. By contrast, jet was a local drug, and although it was quite popular in Fallout 2, the death of its creator and cures for addiction curbed the jet craze, so it didn't spread that far. Not to mention that the East Coast is severed from the West Coast, so communication between the two isn't normal. So something like jet, a post-war drug developed on the West Coast, wouldn't reach the East Coast (and certainly wouldn't be found in vaults like it was in Fallout 3; you can call it sorting error, but I didn't see it in New Vegas). Not to mention no one on the East Coasts seems to know how to make it. I mean, that ghoul who makes ultrajet doesn't have a brahmin (you know jet is the fumes from brahmin s***, or chemicals in the fumes, right?). And no, the Wasteland Survival Guide shouldn't be in New Vegas either, but I'll take that as an unnecessary/forced shout-out to Fallout 3 fans, as they didn't get many in New Vegas; doesn't excuse it, but I think there were other reasons for it rather than ignoring canon

Someone brought up the fact that the jet that's used in the Capitol Wastes isn't exactly the same jet that was used on the West Coast. Chances are, the myth of jet spread all through out the caravan lines, and someone decided to take it upon his own to create his own version. Sounds plausible to me.


6. I mean, we're talking about the same country, not different ones, but primitive isn't really the right word. I'd say that Fallout 3 looks more destroyed than it should at this point in the timeline; the game takes place 200 years after the Great War, yet it looks like it has only been about 50. I'm not saying it has to be equally as restored as the West Coast was by this point, but more progress should have been made (especially since that's the path the series had been going with), and it should've been comparative. Then again, a lot of the characters in Fallout 3 are pretty stupid, so maybe not (although that's a result of Bethesda's writing). You could call it a difference of circumstance, D.C. was no more or less destroyed than L.A., is also dealing with raiders and super mutants (both of whom are less organized, less efficient, and less intelligent than their West Coast counterparts, and shouldn't be as much of a problem as such), and had access to a lot of the same pre-war tech (and the East Coast didn't have the BOS hoarding it either). So either the East Coast is behind the West Coast because Bethesda didn't follow the progression of the series or because the wrote so many of the characters to be idiots.

I think it could have something to do with the fact that the East Coast stayed irradiated for as long as it did. Severally ruining the chances of the populace to move on. As for the reason to why DC stayed irradiated as long as it did. That there is a plot hole, considering the half life of radiation in water. Something kept the Capital Wastes radiated longer, and if you apply enough Star Trek plot hole fixing powers (=P), you can bullshit that the source of the radiation was coming from Vault 87 or someplace else.

7. I completely agree that a small contingent of Enclave troops could've fled eastward, eventually reaching D.C. if they made it that far. But we're talking about a SMALL contingent. A small contingent that would be stripped of most of their resources after the destruction of the Oil Rig and the seizing of Navarro (namely vertibirds). And a contingent that would be pretty old by the events of Fallout 3, which took place 35 years after Fallout 2. So if the average age of Enclave soldiers who were around for Fallout 2 was between 25-40 let's say, they should be between 55-70 by Fallout 3. And based on all of this, they could've played the same small role in Fallout 3 as they did in New Vegas, which is the role the Enclave should play at this point

But they didn't play a small role, did they? The contingent in Fallout 3 isn't exactly all that small. In fact, I'd say they're pretty on par with the Enclave in Fallout 2 (which they shouldn't be). And while Raven Rock could've had some vertibirds lying around (with gun turrets, which the vertibirds in Fallout 2 didn't have), it was a small base and wouldn't have too many. The Oil Rig was their main base with most of their resources and Navarro was their biggest base on land, so they shouldn't have such an abundance of vertibirds and other resources. On the other hand, of all the resources they should have, the vastly superior advanced power armor found in Fallout 2 and that they should've brought over would be one of them, but it's not (and then they develop the "superior" Hellfire power armor, which is still inferior). And wouldn't you say they're all quite young? I'm not saying that the Enclave couldn't have had children that grew up in the 35 years between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3, but the fact that they're all pretty young seems a little odd. I mean, what, did the Enclave just have daily orgies in order to repopulate their numbers, let alone have enough children that the Enclave would be entirely composed of youthful members. And why aren't there any older members in the Enclave. Some might've died of old age, sure, but all of them? And not all of them were that old. "Well," you say, "Then maybe the Enclave was made up of members who weren't 'that old' and not all children." Well then the Enclave should still be a small contingent of survivors, not a large one.

If you remember in Fallout 3, there was an eyebot that went around broadcasting how apple pie and wholesome the Enclave were to anyone willing to listen in the wastes. What this means to me is, what the Enclave were doing up till this point were recruiting. They were trying to win the hearts of anyone in the Capitol Wastes, and they were recruiting young members to fill in their numbers. As for their arsinal, well... chances are they've been digging up any safe houses along the way East. I mean this is the America we're talking about. Where there's statistically three rifles to ever person.

Let's also not forget that New Vegas is not Fallout 3 (and thank god for that). The Enclave in Fallout 3 isn't any less dark in their motives. They haven't abandoned their goals, or are struggling with loyalty to a cause vs. personal views. They're just genocidal a**holes who are trying to make the world safe for "humans" again. Albeit, not the morally conflicted ones in Fallout 2. In Fallout 2, they were led by a human. A human who indeed had to weigh what they were doing and chose the option they felt best. So when President Richardson said he wasn't entirely happy with what he had to do, it was somewhat believable. And the fact that you could convince Dr. Curling to see the error of his ways (as Richardson was quite steadfast in his) meant that perhaps there was some dilemma amongst the Enclave. But the Enclave in Fallout 3 is led by a computer. A computer who is just replicating Richardson's choice without all the reasoning. A computer who, even as an AI, can't entirely comprehend morality the same way humans can, so there's not as much of a moral dilemma. And followers that are still quite committed to what the Enclave is doing. And the Enclave is doing the same exact thing they did in Fallout 2

I'm pretty sure the Enclave in FO3 were up till then trying to keep a lower profile of being evil all humanity hating nazis in favor or recruiting more members to fill their ranks.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Not quite. Major events in Tactics happened, while some minor events did not necessarily happen. The only game that doesn't exist in Fallout lore is FOBOS. And yes, that's only true because of Bethesda. Bethesda owns the series, they get to decide what's canon and what's not, even if they don't really know enough to make fair judgments in all areas (Fallout 3 should be semi canon like Tactics, but it's not)

The problem is every single ending for Tactics contradicts with Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

Every ending for Tactics ends with the BoS becoming a super power and taking Vault 0 as thier main base.

However by the time of Fallout 3 they are apparently only a very small group in Chicago, and Caesar's Legion controls the area right next to were Vault 0 is, and Caesar makes no mention of having to fight BoS on his Eastern flank.

In fact all Caesar mentions is that hes captured one or two BoS members in the east who don't know who their founder is, probably due to the MWBoS time away from the main group.

that is almost what i wanted to say.
it looks like bedestha has taken some parts of fallout tactics as cannon...

Bethesda admitted they took "only the high level events" as in, only that a BoS group got trapped in Chicago and probably fought some shit, as canon.

 

[Lectori Salutem]

What's up with all these Fallout 3 complaint/defending threads I've seen lately? You would think the game had just come out or something, and not 4 flipping years ago.

Does this mean in 2016 we'll get a flood of Mass Effect 3 ending threads again?

Nah, we're going back in time.
Just wait until the Ultima IX threads

 

[ninjaRiv]

As someone who has played the first two, I can honestly say I agree with the OP. Besides, in my opinion, FO3 was a better game. A better game, over all. I feel sad when people ***** about how they hate it because they changed so much in the third game. So, go play the first two! Just because a new one came out, doesn't mean FO1 and 2 vanished from the face of the earth! I understand how people dislike a sudden and drastic change in the franchise they love but, come on... Are you judging the game or your own preferences? Because if you don't like the game because it's not a genre you like, just say so.

 

[MaulYoda]

Not quite. Major events in Tactics happened, while some minor events did not necessarily happen. The only game that doesn't exist in Fallout lore is FOBOS. And yes, that's only true because of Bethesda. Bethesda owns the series, they get to decide what's canon and what's not, even if they don't really know enough to make fair judgments in all areas (Fallout 3 should be semi canon like Tactics, but it's not)

The problem is every single ending for Tactics contradicts with Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

Every ending for Tactics ends with the BoS becoming a super power and taking Vault 0 as thier main base.

However by the time of Fallout 3 they are apparently only a very small group in Chicago, and Caesar's Legion controls the area right next to were Vault 0 is, and Caesar makes no mention of having to fight BoS on his Eastern flank.

In fact all Caesar mentions is that hes captured one or two BoS members in the east who don't know who their founder is, probably due to the MWBoS time away from the main group.

Well that would count as Caesar fighting them, no? And that definition of canon comes from Bethesda itself. But I think Fallout 3 (and by extension, New Vegas) assumes that although these events happened, the Midwestern BOS eventually declined and were rather weak by the time of Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I mean, there's an 80 year or so gap between Tactics and Fallout 3 and New Vegas, so that seems possible. And the West Coast BOS declined in the 80 years between Fallout 1 and Fallout 2, despite the fact that they seemed to be growing in strength by the end of Fallout 1

Point is, I think there are inconsistent elements in Tactics, but I don't think the ending contradicts Fallout 3. I think Fallout 3 just assumes that the events after the ending didn't play out as one might think

 

[SajuukKhar]

Well that would count as Caesar fighting them, no? And that definition of canon comes from Bethesda itself. But I think Fallout 3 (and by extension, New Vegas) assumes that although these events happened, the Midwestern BOS eventually declined and were rather weak by the time of Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I mean, there's an 80 year or so gap between Tactics and Fallout 3 and New Vegas, so that seems possible. And the West Coast BOS declined in the 80 years between Fallout 1 and Fallout 2, despite the fact that they seemed to be growing in strength by the end of Fallout 1

Point is, I think there are inconsistent elements in Tactics, but I don't think the ending contradicts Fallout 3. I think Fallout 3 just assumes that the events after the ending didn't play out as one might think

Caesar doesn't mention them fighting him, just that he has captured some on his eastern flank.

The BoS members he caught were most likely part of a BoS patrol, probably checking to see if they could tear anything more out of vault 0 and take it back to Chicago.

Also, Fallout 2 showed that the BoS was going into a decline, them getting more powerful at the end of Fallout 1 was kinda shown to not be so in Fallout 2.

I personally like to think that the MWBoS being small was just them hiding their true strength.

 

[MaulYoda]

Let's go point by point here:

Original intentions for the Vault 87 dropped in favor of testing FEV which seemed more interesting.


They find the results for the original experiment not so productive or the result were concluded and they choice to start experimenting with Vault 87 differently. And if money is an issue, you really have no clue how stupid governments are in spending the tax payers money on B.S.

It's called compartmentalization, I use to be in the Navy, so I use to be part of that system. You have several different people doing separate jobs, and no one knowing exactly what the mission details pertain. All I knew was I had to load bombs onto an F-14 and they went and bombed something. ALL militarys and governments work that way.

Any results can prove to be valuable.

Don't you think the vaults were experimented on with living test subjects before hand to make sure they could sustain a community after the bombs fell? Well there you go! lol

Test researchers do it all the time.NO REALLY!

RESULTS, any result might prove valuable.

I'm not!

That's the Masters, West Tek and Vault Tek and the Government wouldn't care, they'd rather throw darts around blindly til one hit bullseye.

They were intelligent? Honestly, how hard is it to pick up a gun, point and shoot? The vault 87 mutants were a scattered miss/mass band of wanderers that went around blindly terrorizing the capital waste. Not exactly an army there.

There's always a black sheep to every experiment. Look at any scientific research that's been done in ANY field and you'd see how somehow different results are produced even when the exact same measures are taking. Especially with live subjects.

ETC ETC ETC

Honestly, it seems like you're taking every measure to argue against any possibilities in Vault 87 being plusable and not for the sake of logic. Instead, for the sake of bashing on the idea with great prejudice.

I'll just say this before anything else: you're trying to justify Bethesda's work when they should've justified it themselves but never did. No harm in trying on your part, but some foresight on their part could've sorted this out. Anyway:

1. I countered that in an earlier post, so in the interest of conserving space, I refer you to that

2. Except they couldn't test the results of the vault experiment until there were people in the vault and the vault was closed. And that wouldn't happen until the Great War, so before that, they couldn't conclude anything about Vault 87's previous experiment success or probable failure (since most of the experiments were failures). Perhaps they judged it inferior to the whole FEV thing, but a decision like that would take time, and by the time they made a decision and retrofitted Vault 87, it would be months behind Mariposa in research (if not too late overall because the Great War would've happened). And it wasn't Vault Tec's call, it was the military's since they had possession of all this research and weren't exactly giving it up. And Vault Tec certainly wouldn't have gotten it from West Tek either, given how reluctant West Tek was to give it to the military (and that they opposed human testing). Nor the Enclave, as that brings up the question of why the Enclave would need to acquire FEV from Mariposa if they had all the research and were able to get a hold of it themselves? Maybe they gave some away, but they would've saved some for themselves, no?

And I know governments are wasteful, believe me. But then again, not always, and I'm not sure how much money the US government would have by this point. I mean, we're already struggling to pay for stuff now, and conditions are way worse by 2077. Plus, it would be discretionary spending, so it would have to pass through some sort of legislative body (I'd say Congress, but I'm not sure how many of them were in the know about the whole vault experiment). It might, but it also might not, and that kind of debate takes time. Time that, considering how close to the Great War this would be occurring, Vault Tec might not have

And yes, it was ALL seized by the military. It says so in documents from Fallout 1 (http://www.falloutwiki.com/FEV_experiment_disk#Log_Date_January_7.2C_2077); I don't know how to format links on this forum, by the way, so sorry about that

3. I've never heard of that term (thanks for being something new), but that wasn't my point. My point was that if the military could hide something so well from their own people in a base where all of this is going on (and on a general basis, as you said), how would Vault Tec find out about it before the leak in February 2077? And at this point, they only have so much time to start their own research, by which point they'd be far behind Mariposa

4. Inferior results would be useful? And remember, this was a vault, so the super soldiers it intended to create were for the post-war period, not pre-war like Mariposa. Maybe the Enclave could make use of super soldiers, but they seemed just fine without them, and wanted to destroy the super mutants anyway

5. The equipment was probably tested, sure, and there were even nuclear war drills. But people living in the vault aside from maybe the Vault Tec employees (who wouldn't be experimenting on themselves)? No. And hell, I'm not even sure that happened; Vault Tec never caught the GECK-Water Chip mix-up between Vault 8 and Vault 13, so any examinations clearly weren't thorough. Also, the Vault Experiment wasn't exactly concerned with the survival of its people (aside from the control vaults). Furthermore, even if people did test the living conditions of these vaults (which that exhibit in Fallout 3 seemed capable of doing anyway), it's not like the experiments were conducted with these people. And for some of the more obvious experiments, they could be revealed and people might back out of the vaults knowing how horrible it would be. And who would volunteer? People who signed up for the vault but obviously didn't want to enter it until the time came? Or people who didn't get a spot in the vault and would refuse to leave?

6. Maybe when they have to. In the case of FEV, they didn't

7. Refer to point #4

8. Well, the OP mentioned the intelligence question, and people have brought this up before when I've had this discussion with them, so I'm just bringing it up in case you or anyone else decided to

9. Vault Tec, not Tek, but I digress. I don't know what you're referring to that they wouldn't care about. Maybe you mean a successful strand of FEV? Well, the last batch West Tek produced was successful enough that it was moved to Mariposa. And then Mariposa made modifications based on human testing, and this eventually resulted in FEV-II. Mariposa did not get to thoroughly test FEV-II, but it was preserved until the Master found it. In other words, the FEV the Master is using is the same as how Mariposa left it before the Great War and works the same way. And if Vault 87 is using this strand, it should also work the same

10. Some of the Mariposa mutants were intelligent, yes. Only two of the Vault 87 mutants were. The rest of them were so stupid they were almost primitive in terms of intelligence (they also lost their memories). And if you gave a cave man a gun, would they know how to shoot it? Hell, could they shoot it well? Could they use it as effectively as the super mutants did? And for as scattered as they were, each of those scattered squads fought in a pretty organized manner, or at least was pretty damn effective. I mean, the GNR raid certainly seemed organized. They certainly seemed to guard areas of higher radiation more heavily. They were certainly enough of a formidable army that they were problematic to the Capital Wasteland. And again, they knew how to go about the FEV changing process. Point is, they were far more organized and efficient than they should've been given their intelligence, and without an intelligent leader at that

11. Go back to my post. I'm not saying Fawkes couldn't have turned out differently, I'm saying that a reason was never given as to why. Again, there was a reason why some super mutants were more intelligent than others in Fallout 1. Hell, Bethesda even tried to explain why some ghouls went feral. But they couldn't give some correlation for super mutant intelligence? I mean, if we're already assuming that the mutants can do everything that they do with such low intelligence, wouldn't they notice some test subjects turning out differently than others? Or wouldn't Fawkes notice something like that, considering he's been in Vault 87 for 200 years or so? Or one of the Vault 87 scientists would've discovered it? And it'd be one thing if Fawkes was the only example (and in that case, Bethesda could give some stupid reason like "he was a good person and resisted the change" and I'd just live with it), but there are two: Fawkes and Uncle Leo. So there's clearly a reason, but it's never explained

12. Really? I think I'm being pretty damn analytical in my criticism. It's not like I bashed everything in Fallout 3, or that everything I criticized in Fallout 3 I criticized just because it was in Fallout 3. I mean, there were ways of putting the super mutants in Fallout 3 without making it contradictory. Not that I thought they needed to be in Fallout 3 (and certainly not in the way they were), but if you're going to do it, do it as best as you can. Simple example: make Vault 87 a private Vault Tec lab separate from the vault experiment that was constructed in 2077 and funded with Vault Tec's own money, and experiments were done on Vault Tec employees who signed up for a "company alternative" to the vaults. Solves a few issues, no? Not everything obviously (and a few new issues might arise, albeit smaller), but it would've made it more plausible with minimal effort

 

[MaulYoda]

Caesar doesn't mention them fighting him, just that he has captured some on his eastern flank.

The BoS members he caught were most likely part of a BoS patrol, probably checking to see if they could tear anything more out of vault 0 and take it back to Chicago.

Also, Fallout 2 showed that the BoS was going into a decline, them getting more powerful at the end of Fallout 1 was kinda shown to not be so in Fallout 2.

I personally like to think that the MWBoS being small was just them hiding their true strength.

I guess. It's still an interaction, and if the Midwestern BOS had declined to such an extent, a plausible interaction

Also, the fact that the BOS declined between Fallout 1 and Fallotu 2 is EXACTLY my point: it is very possible for the BOS to decline in the span of 80 years, so why couldn't it happen to the Midwestern BOS? Plus, if they did decline, then the Enclave could cross through their territory en route to D.C. without having to fight a much more powerful faction that would've defeated them (and added another problem to their appearance in Fallout 3)

 

[beastro]

everything in red are areas your not supposed to go to until you level up and backtrack, which is to say most of the bottom half of the map.

And again, I shouldn't have to use an exploit back path to get around a monster barrier that your not supposed to get around, because monster barriers are fucking pointless.

The only true red areas in your map are Blackrock and the Quarry. All the other areas to the south and east I always clear out as I swing east and then north.

What's so challenging about them?

 

[beastro]

them not reofrming into a larger nation like the NCR shows, if it shows anything, is that they know what NOT to do in order to ensure they srurive longer.

Yes, we must be high minded when bare survival is necessary.

By staying small, indipendant, towns, with just a little bit of trade between them, they get to void the same disease that destoryed the pre-war peopels, and indeed is destrying the NCR.

Take the village democracy somewhere else.

States are created for a damn good reason in real life and in the game. It's the very reason why the NCR arose from Shady Sands, spread across South Cal: To tame the land and drive the raiders to allow trade and civilization to spread..

 

[Twilight_guy]

Yes, fallout 3 ruined everything... because it was all going so well, you know. Except for this:

but let's casually ignore that because we can ***** about a much more recent game and pretend it was sunshine and rainbows before fallout 3 ruined everything.

 

[beastro]

Lets see the entire town of Megaton was built, and places such as Rivet City, and Tenpenny tower do get maintenance.

Doesn't fly.

Rivet City is an aircraft carrier sitting in the Atlantic for 200 years with no ability to drydock and repaint the keep. It would barely even look like a warship once salt water ate through the hull and spread through the lower decks.

Look up the condition of USS Texas and it's history of hull problems. It's been lackluster for ever since it was mothballed (as in even semi-decent measures taken to prepare it for extended periods without of maintenance) 70 years ago.

 

[MaulYoda]

Because there was probably always a chance the Scribes could never get Liberty Prime to work properly, and Lyons knew he couldn't place too much fate in that project.

Limited time, limited resources, and poor decision making. Plus, there's the Enclave in all this, and the interfighting between the two factions added with the fact that half of his forces decided to leave because he decided to abandon a lot of BoS protocols... well... you get the point.

Someone brought up the fact that the jet that's used in the Capitol Wastes isn't exactly the same jet that was used on the West Coast. Chances are, the myth of jet spread all through out the caravan lines, and someone decided to take it upon his own to create his own version. Sounds plausible to me.

I think it could have something to do with the fact that the East Coast stayed irradiated for as long as it did. Severally ruining the chances of the populace to move on. As for the reason to why DC stayed irradiated as long as it did. That there is a plot hole, considering the half life of radiation in water. Something kept the Capital Wastes radiated longer, and if you apply enough Star Trek plot hole fixing powers (=P), you can bullshit that the source of the radiation was coming from Vault 87 or someplace else.

If you remember in Fallout 3, there was an eyebot that went around broadcasting how apple pie and wholesome the Enclave were to anyone willing to listen in the wastes. What this means to me is, what the Enclave were doing up till this point were recruiting. They were trying to win the hearts of anyone in the Capitol Wastes, and they were recruiting young members to fill in their numbers. As for their arsinal, well... chances are they've been digging up any safe houses along the way East. I mean this is the America we're talking about. Where there's statistically three rifles to ever person.

I'm pretty sure the Enclave in FO3 were up till then trying to keep a lower profile of being evil all humanity hating nazis in favor or recruiting more members to fill their ranks.

1. Worth a try though, no? Not focusing on Liberty Prime and just assaulting the super mutants didn't seem to do much as it is, so why not give the Liberty Prime option a shot? At least then, if it didn't work, Lyons would have a plausible reason to abandon the project without many of his followers abandoning him, and he could go after the super mutants at full strength

2. The BOS arrived in the Capital Wasteland in 2255. The schism with the Outcasts didn't occur until 2276, and the Enclave, while certainly making their presence known (which I'll get to later), wasn't sending out troopers and engaging with the BOS until 2277. Not to mention that Lyons was still in contact with the West Coast BOS and receiving resources from them until this point. That gives Lyons about 20 years to stage a raid on Vault 87 at full strength, with a number of resources, and without interference from the Enclave. The only poor decision making here was Lyons' decision to waste this opportunity when he had plenty of time to take advantage of it. Furthermore, Lyons and his squad were hardened BOS veterans, so it's not like they would've been slaughtered by the super mutants. Also, Lyons completely crushed the raiders at the Pitt, but the far less organized and less powerful band in the Capital Wasteland is still standing. Again, he wants to help the people, right? Why not start with an assault on Evergreen Mills?

3. What caravan lines run across the country? They're all local. Albeit, the West Coast lines are bigger, but they don't extend much more eastward than Utah or Colorado. So yeah, maybe they carried jet to the Mojave (which isn't to far from New Reno at that, so they probably could've acquired jet even without the caravans), but to D.C? I just don't see that (and like I said, the Wasteland Survival Guide being in New Vegas didn't make much sense either). And again, the effects of jet come from some specific chemicals. If those chemicals aren't used, then you're not making jet, you're making another drug. And in that case, why call it jet and not something else? Also, the difference in jet between the games is that it's less addictive in Fallout 3 and New Vegas than Fallout 2. I could buy this (maybe the jet produced after Myron's death was less efficient, or maybe the only way for jet to survive as a drug after some of the backlash was if it were less addictive), but that would still entail people knowing how to make jet. People in New Vegas should know due to their close proximity to New Reno and other areas in Fallout 2. People in Fallout 3 though? I don't see that being possible, especially since the ghoul making ultrajet doesn't even have all the ingredients to make regular jet

4. As you said though, the East Coast shouldn't have been irradiated this long. And even if you bulls*** a plothole, you're still bulls***ing it and it doesn't fix the problem. Also, it's not the East Coast is just one giant radiation pool; radiation isn't everywhere, and some settlements popped up pretty quickly at that. So the East Coast should've had plenty of time to rebound, no? Certainly enough to get to at least Fallout 1 levels. And how the hell would Vault 87 be the source of radiation, even with the bulls*** approach? The radiation from the nuclear explosion outside of it is pretty contained, and the FEV isn't going anywhere either, so that wouldn't work

5. The Enclave doesn't recruit. They consider anyone not tainted by outside radiation to be the only "pure" or "real" humans, and that group only includes members of the Enclave and vault inhabitants who remained in their vault all these years. Everyone else is considered a "mutant," and recruiting them would go against the Enclave's principles. And while the Enclave Remnants in New Vegas might not agree with this, the contingent in Fallout 3 is still clearly devoted to this and wouldn't recruit outsiders as such. And hell, why would they recruit people who they're planning to kill, or why would people join an organization trying to kill them? It doesn't make a lot of sense, and it still doesn't explain the lack of senior Enclave members in Fallout 3. As for resources, I'm sure they could find guns, but the more powerful energy weapons used by the Enclave are a bit rarer. And vertibirds were pretty damn exclusive, not to mention still in the prototype phase when the Great War happened, so they wouldn't find any of those lying around. And any of the remaining ones were seized by the Enclave, most of which were transported to their main base, the Oil Rig. Again, Raven Rock probably had some advanced tech and maybe a couple of vertibirds, but not enough to completely restock the Enclave. Hell, I'm not sure if Raven Rock would have any vertibirds. After all, all of the vertibirds at Navarro and in the Mojave Outpost were flown in from the Oil Rig, so they might've all been stored at Oil Rig.

As for safe houses, most Enclave outposts on the mainland were established post-war and in close proximity to the Oil Rig. They might've had a few lying around like Raven Rock or Chicago, but not too many. And again, the Oil Rig was still their main base of operations, so it would be the most fully stocked. The outposts, on the other hand, probably wouldn't

6. Again, the Enclave doesn't recruit wastelanders or "mutants," and the contingent in Fallout 3 was still adamant in that belief. If they weren't, they would be trying to forget the past and move on with their lives like the Remnants in New Vegas, not try to finally fulfill the goals of the Enclave from Fallout 2. And you call sending out eyebots that are blasting propaganda "keeping a low profile?" Granted, it made them seem like nice people, but if they didn't do this and just remained inside Raven Rock, it wouldn't matter what the wastelanders thought of the Enclave because they'd all be dead. At least the Enclave in Fallout 2 hadn't been on the mainland in centuries, so they needed to do some scouting to assess the situations and eventually acquire FEV from Mariposa to carry out their plans. Not to mention that the vertibirds had limited operational range, so they needed to establish outposts for refueling and whatnot. Other than that, any mainland activities remained pretty secretive. But still, the Enclave had a need to do some things more in the open, so you were going to eventually spot them (especially after they kidnapped your village, which they needed for testing)

On the other hand, the Enclave in Fallout 3 has all of the FEV research (somehow), it's all been tested, and they're fully aware of the situation on the mainland. So all they need to do is rebuild whatever machinery they needed in Fallout 2 to launch it into the jet stream (if they don't already have fully repaired machines at Raven Rock, as Raven Rock did have labs and whatnot), and they could successfully wipe out the "mutants" without ever leaving their base. Hell, even if they needed to leave their base for resources and whatnot, they could do so in small patrols without every really revealing their existence to most people. But the eyebots ruined that. As did the fact that Eden chose water instead of the jet stream, which means he had to reveal the Enclave in order to seize Project Purity

 

[beastro]

I liked what Sajuuk had to say and agree with it for the most part, but Eddie does have a point. What I think Fallout 3 helped with was introduce the Fallout universe to gamers who didn't know what the heck Fallout was for the PC. I was fortunate enough to know, myself, but there are younger players now who have taken a liking to Fallout's established lore that Fallout 3 helped revive after the series' prolonged hiatus.

I think having New Vegas after Fallout 3 by the originators was the smartest thing Bethesda could have done. Fallout 3 is the nostalgic fan-service the community needed, while New Vegas helped progress and evolve the lore of the Fallout universe.

That said, I'm really holding out hope for something extraordinary in the next Fallout. If it's even the slightest upgrade similar in change from Oblivion (eh.) to Skyrim (woo!), I'll be a happy gamer.

This is the only reason why FO3: It was to reestablish the franchise on a solid foundation and that wasn't the time or place to be taking risks, like resurrecting Van Buren as NV did.

 

[MaulYoda]

Yes, fallout 3 ruined everything... because it was all going so well, you know. Except for this:

but let's casually ignore that because we can ***** about a much more recent game and pretend it was sunshine and rainbows before fallout 3 ruined everything.

Believe me, the only reason Fallout fans pretend it doesn't exist is because they wish it didn't. Fallout fans bitched about that one for a while (just go to the FOBOS section on Duck and Cover and read any of the articles), and all of us believe it's the worst thing to ever bear the Fallout name. And yes, it was much, MUCH worse than Fallout 3. The difference is everyone thought FOBOS sucked, so it's not like there was some divide between older Fallout fans and newer Fallout fans. But with Fallout 3, that divide exists so each side wants to prove itself right, hence the debate