Female Power Fantasy

[Thaluikhain]

However! Here is my answer; Medea.
Medea is the greek play about the woman who killed her children in order to get revenge on her disloyal husband. I would use a spoiler tag but it is literally millennia old so I think it's okay. And most people know the story. I digress.

Not exactly true. In Euripides' play about Medea, she kills her children, but the play wa baed around the legend, and in that they are killed by vengeful local soldiers after she escapes.

Euripides' play just happens to be the most famous depiction of the legend.

...

Otherwise, yeah, what evilthecat said.

Spoiler: snip

I'll agree "power" is not exactly a right word, but I do have an image of my 'ultimate form of self'. Firstly, I'm sort of what you could call post-feminist -- I'm totally not interested in tropes in media of ball-breaking, manly-strength, violently predatory chicks who are at the same time oversexualised and young. It seems pathetically overcompensatory in a distinctly juvenile male way.

I am, however, proud of my feminine qualities such as charity, care for others, resilience and wisdom. I guess I'm getting to the age where I'm actually discovering "mom qualities" in myself (I'm totally not a mom and I'm in my early 20s but I'm starting to respect and value these traits).

So, if I picture myself in the ultimate form, I would be someone that many people depend upon for care and wisdom, and also respect and fear (potentially) and trust me, and I'd have some serious skills in things that make everyone look up to me. That's probably how you can describe Femshep or a bunch of other game and movie heroines. But yeah, just highlighting how it's not strength or raw power, per se. It's an aura of respect that you can gain from a number of other traits like knowledge, resilience and beauty.

I think that is one thing that made Ripley's character admirable is her "maternal strength". For those of us who had amazing mothers, you'd know that admiration and respect for a woman who is both sensitive and tough, or even some of you guys know what it's like to have a woman partner who is dependable, dignified, and carries herself with a natural elegance, not necessarily sexual but awe-inspiring.

That is what I'd want to be

Erm...not sure how not being in favour of juvenile ideas of being powerful is post-feminist, nor holding to things held as traditional female virtues.

Now, I don't have anything against motherhood, only it sometimes seems that people have a hard time thinking of motivations for strong female characters beyond it.

You have Ripley, you have Sarah Connor whose entire purpose was to protect hers, you have Beatrice Kiddo whose entire purpose was to avenge/rescue hers (and the woman in Ultraviolet, if anyone would admit to watching it).

Or, for that matter, Molly Weasley, she spends the first 6 books/movies knitting jumpers and cooking dinner for the other characters, only it turns out she's capable of killing off the Dark Lord's most powerful Death Eater all by herself when her daughter is threatened (had to be daughter and her female friends, cause you couldn't have male wizards fighting a female Death Eater).

Now, not saying that there's anything wrong with motherhood, and yes there's examples of female characters motivated by other things, but it's massively over-represented.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Ellen Ripley in Alien, Wonder Woman (although she?s not really that good a superheroine), Samus Aran in Metroid (excluding Other M), Lara Croft in the earlier Tomb Raider games, and Chun-Li in Street Fighter. Out of these, Ripley?s probably the best ?female power fantasy?.

By the way, a female protagonist wearing skimpy clothing does not automatically mean she?s being degraded. In real-life, many women wear skimpy clothing. Get over it.

 

[LadyTiamat]

I'll use firefly as my reference.
here you go, a good female character.

I'm not sure people want to be her, being slightly mad. I would've thought zoe.

But I'm not a woman, so I really don't know :/

though she may be mad she can snap your neck in to if she wanted and that is what i think is female power fantasy.

 

[Eamar]

Now, I don't have anything against motherhood, only it sometimes seems that people have a hard time thinking of motivations for strong female characters beyond it.

Oh god yes. Yes, yes, yes. Though I admit this may well be due to my own personal biases (I am fully prepared to admit that motherhood is a major driving force for the majority of women, that's just basic biology, and my own complete lack of desire for it is pretty unusual), it pisses me off when a character suddenly comes over all broody when they showed no signs of it before. I much prefer Ripley in Alien than in Aliens (the other two don't exist ) for this very reason.

I mean, the majority of men want kids to some degree too, but not every strong male character has to run with the theme of fatherhood. Some do, and that's great, but it's not anything like as universal as it is with female characters. Don't just shoe-horn it in to your story because "OMG guize she's a chick and they like babies, right?" >.<

 

[Relish in Chaos]

I will say the whole Xenomorph-mother bullshit with Ripley in Alien Resurrection, when she turned all weird and maternal, was just fucked up. She wasn't even Ripley anymore. Part of the reason why I disliked that film.

 

[BiscuitWheels]

Now, I don't have anything against motherhood, only it sometimes seems that people have a hard time thinking of motivations for strong female characters beyond it.

Oh god yes. Yes, yes, yes. Though I admit this may well be due to my own personal biases (I am fully prepared to admit that motherhood is a major driving force for the majority of women, that's just basic biology, and my own complete lack of desire for it is pretty unusual), it pisses me off when a character suddenly comes over all broody when they showed no signs of it before. I much prefer Ripley in Alien than in Aliens (the other two don't exist ) for this very reason.

I mean, the majority of men want kids to some degree too, but not every strong male character has to run with the theme of fatherhood. Some do, and that's great, but it's not anything like as universal as it is with female characters. Don't just shoe-horn it in to your story because "OMG guize she's a chick and they like babies, right?" >.<

Well, I think Ripley can be given a bit of leeway in this regard. It's only in the director's cut (I think), but we do learn that in the 57 years Ripley's been lost in stasis, her daughter Amanda grew up and died without her.

 

[Eamar]

Now, I don't have anything against motherhood, only it sometimes seems that people have a hard time thinking of motivations for strong female characters beyond it.

Oh god yes. Yes, yes, yes. Though I admit this may well be due to my own personal biases (I am fully prepared to admit that motherhood is a major driving force for the majority of women, that's just basic biology, and my own complete lack of desire for it is pretty unusual), it pisses me off when a character suddenly comes over all broody when they showed no signs of it before. I much prefer Ripley in Alien than in Aliens (the other two don't exist ) for this very reason.

I mean, the majority of men want kids to some degree too, but not every strong male character has to run with the theme of fatherhood. Some do, and that's great, but it's not anything like as universal as it is with female characters. Don't just shoe-horn it in to your story because "OMG guize she's a chick and they like babies, right?" >.<

Well, I think Ripley can be given a bit of leeway in this regard. It's only in the director's cut (I think), but we do learn that in the 57 years Ripley's been lost in stasis, her daughter Amanda grew up and died without her.

Perfectly fair point. I still prefer "original" Ripley personally though

 

[Phasmal]

By the way, a female protagonist wearing skimpy clothing does not automatically mean she?s being degraded. In real-life, many women wear skimpy clothing. Get over it.

I dont think anybody has a real problem with characters being sexy, it just sucks when that's pretty much all they are. Then they're just sex objects, not real characters.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Erm...not sure how not being in favour of juvenile ideas of being powerful is post-feminist, nor holding to things held as traditional female virtues.

Now, I don't have anything against motherhood, only it sometimes seems that people have a hard time thinking of motivations for strong female characters beyond it.

You have Ripley, you have Sarah Connor whose entire purpose was to protect hers, you have Beatrice Kiddo whose entire purpose was to avenge/rescue hers (and the woman in Ultraviolet, if anyone would admit to watching it).

Or, for that matter, Molly Weasley, she spends the first 6 books/movies knitting jumpers and cooking dinner for the other characters, only it turns out she's capable of killing off the Dark Lord's most powerful Death Eater all by herself when her daughter is threatened (had to be daughter and her female friends, cause you couldn't have male wizards fighting a female Death Eater).

Now, not saying that there's anything wrong with motherhood, and yes there's examples of female characters motivated by other things, but it's massively over-represented.

To be fair, Ripley wasn't really primarily motivated by protecting that little girl in Aliens. She was sent to accompany that team of space marines, but also perhaps to avenge her own team who were killed in the last film. I think the maternal undertones was only a minor part.

With Sarah Connor, she did pretty much fill in the role of "damsel-in-distress" in the first Terminator, but in the second film, it wasn't just that she was trying to protect John. They were trying to destroy Skynet too.

But yeah, Molly Weasley was already the stereotypical "mother hen" of the series (she never had much more character than that), but I think that was half the joke of it. This overprotective and frumpy mother shows just how much of a badass she is by killing the most powerful Death Eater when her daughter is threatened.

By the way, a female protagonist wearing skimpy clothing does not automatically mean she?s being degraded. In real-life, many women wear skimpy clothing. Get over it.

I dont think anybody has a real problem with characters being sexy, it just sucks when that's pretty much all they are. Then they're just sex objects, not real characters.

Yeah, I know, but far too often, I see people so quick to push the "objectification" button whenever there's a strong female protagonist who just so happens to be wearing a pair of short shorts, even if it's practical for her mission. Like Lara Croft in the earlier Tomb Raider games, although to be fair, she didn't get negative criticism for that and it was more positive for rejecting gender stereotypes.

Anyway, what about Cammy from Street Fighter? She's pretty leggy, to say the least, but she has a strong and motivated character with no maternal bullshit and her own self-contained story.

 

[Thespian]

Not exactly true. In Euripides' play about Medea, she kills her children, but the play wa baed around the legend, and in that they are killed by vengeful local soldiers after she escapes.

Euripides' play just happens to be the most famous depiction of the legend.

...

Otherwise, yeah, what evilthecat said.

Oh I know. But I was talking about the play. As it's the most famous depiction of the legend. And the child-killing doesn't really pertain to the power fantasy point.
Actually, you mentioning that is interesting... I prefer the version where she doesn't kill her children. It doesn't cast such negative aspersions on the idea of a powerful female.

 

[Colour Scientist]

River

I think pretty much every other female character in that show is a better example than River.

 

[loa]

I think maytag from flipside [http://flipside.keenspot.com/] tries to be that.
She isn't portrayed as physically strong at all.
Her "superpower" is the ability to bend every situation to her favor.

 

[Raika]

I immediately thought of Battlestar Galactica. The vast majority of the movers and shakers in the plot are female, and the ladies of the piece are much more independent and self-sufficient than television usually allows women to be. Mary McDonnell plays the president of twelve planets. I mean, yeah, the planets themselves aren't really inhabited anymore, but it's the principle of the thing.

 

[Batou667]

Well, maybe neither "power fantasy" or "role model" are the right terms, but to see what female characters girl gamers like/identify with/find interesting, I suspect we need look no further than cosplayers. What kind of characters do cosplayers pick? Well, usually either cutesy kawaii-neko weeaboo stuff, or some kick-ass chick in a skimpy outfit with swords/guns. So much for the Feminist ideal of a "strong woman", eh?

Where are all the girls cosplaying Alyx Vance or Jade from BG&E, or any of the other slim and fairly dull list of what we'd assume are feminist-approved characters?

I suppose one partial explanation is that the kind of girl who enjoys making costumes and then parading herself around in conventions or her Deviantart page is, by definition, not the kind of girl to whom the concepts of modesty or moderation are familiar.

Another possible explanation is that women actually don't feel universally repressed by overtly sexy female characters (or, for that matter, repulsed by macho male characters). Gears of War 3 actually has a sizeable female fanbase. We needn't be so eager to write off any depiction of masculinity/femininity as LOL PATRIARCHY AND CHAUVINISM. Anybody else remember the initial reaction to SkullGirls? The consensus did a neat 180 from "it's so demeaning" to "it's so empowering" the minute the female-led dev team was mentioned.

 

[Phasmal]

snip

That was a bit rambly and had almost nothing to do with the point, but A for effort I guess?
Also, women- not hivemind.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Umm... you do raise some interesting points, but how many adult women do you really know who aspire to be like Bella Swan? There may be some, but she's designed to appeal to pre-teens and teenagers and is something of a fantasy for girls in that age group, but not for many women.

And Bella Swan, really? I don't think that being some helpless toy in the affairs of men, who are all better in everything than you, is something very desirable.

To be fair, I was kind of exaggerating. I mean, the Hunger Games and Harry Potter are equally popular amongst a similar demographic, both written by women and both featuring some very "strong" female characters. In fact, literally fiction in general is now kind of a female-dominated market nowadays.

But can you think of a film focusing on female characters designed for an adult female audience? You're probably thinking of some god-awful RomCom, right? If you're lucky, you might be thinking of a romantic drama or post-feminist "sassy" comedy like Sex and the City, but the vast majority of material aimed at women is still insipid, unoriginal and low-risk, because marketers have got used to the idea that if women want something more, they'll go and watch media designed for men.

Which is why, even though a significant number of women do watch science fiction, fantasy, horror and other genres designed for men, it's only really in the youth market that we get movies with these themes specifically targeted at a female audience (and then generally only when they've had proven success as a book).

Thus female equivalent to the 80s action movie hero is still, unfortunately, the romantic heroine. She might be a bit more sassy or outrageous than her 18th century ancestors, but her primary concern remains finding a man to take care of her, because that's how women have historically gained power and legitimacy in society, by influencing the men who can be presumed to have all that power. A woman who can attract a "special" or powerful man, whether a rich businessman or a fucking sparkly vampire, is succeeding by the standards of her social role, and that's still very attractive.

Fortunately, the world is changing. It's changed more than those early feminists feared, but certainly less than they hoped. We do have genuinely strong female characters in women's media now, particularly in young women's media.

But it's still not about "powerful" women in the same way action movies are about "powerful" men. Exaggerated ultra-competent "tough-chicks" or dominatrix super-seductresses are almost always written by men for a male audience.

I think the issue is that writers write what they know, and most writers are men so they write men. (movie writers and game writers is what I'm mainly referring to) That combined with the fact that most stuff in the media is pretty shallow anyways is where the problem seems to stem from. Most male characters seem just as shallow as the female ones, except they are all some combination of cool and strong rather than beautiful and nowadays generally smart.

But on the romantic interest thing, finding that one special woman has almost always been a staple for male characters too. Save the world and get the girl, right? In fact it's sometimes portrayed as the most personal reason for doing these heroic things. Just look at Mario.

Honestly, it's not that the media portrays women badly and unrealistically, it portrays EVERYONE badly and unrealistically. It's just in the most shallow male action movies no one cares about the characters, they come for the explosions.

Now I really want to make an action movie that stars an explosion as its main character

 

[Eddie the head]

Unlike most guys I am not going to even pretend I can understand the female mind. What I mean is I have no idea.

 

[Batou667]

snip

That was a bit rambly and had almost nothing to do with the point, but A for effort I guess?
Also, women- not hivemind.

Haha, thanks.

Yep, I know women aren't a hivemind, that's why I made the point of saying that we can't universally say X is offensive to women or Y is sexist or Z is something that appeals only to men.

 

[Phasmal]

snip

That was a bit rambly and had almost nothing to do with the point, but A for effort I guess?
Also, women- not hivemind.

Haha, thanks.

Yep, I know women aren't a hivemind, that's why I made the point of saying that we can't universally say X is offensive to women or Y is sexist or Z is something that appeals only to men.

Of course not, but men get `power fantasies` aimed at them, so this topic is about what the female one would be.
Men aren't a hivemind either, doesn't stop things being marketed to them as a whole.
Your argument just came off `doesn't matter cause people will still cosplay`.