Female Power Fantasy

[The Funslinger]

I agree with Alyx Vance, I don't think I can top that as an example at the moment, but I'm feeling pretty braindead. Maybe Femshep depending on how she's played, or maybe I'm only thinking that because I'm playing ME at the moment. Bonnie from Red Dead perhaps, or Samus Aran, though I've never actually played any Metroid games, just watched LPs.

I'm not sure Bonnie is necessarily the best example. While it's implied that she can take care of herself, it's what John Marston spends all the Bonnie missions doing for her, especially when she gets kidnapped and raped by that gang.

I'm not saying she's a weak female character, or "feminism rawr!" or anything. I think she's less of a female ideal character, and more of a realism character.

In terms of ME (if the borderline xenophobic christian aspect of her personality doesn't irk you) Ashley Williams is a good one.

 

[Batou667]

Of course not, but men get `power fantasies` aimed at them, so this topic is about what the female one would be.
Men aren't a hivemind either, doesn't stop things being marketed to them as a whole.
Your argument just came off `doesn't matter cause people will still cosplay`.

I'll admit, I kind of assumed that we were talking exclusively about videogame characters.

 

[lord.jeff]

I'll use firefly as my reference.
here you go, a good female character.

I'm not sure people want to be her, being slightly mad. I would've thought zoe.

But I'm not a woman, so I really don't know :/

Being a homicidal manic doesn't stop Kratos from being a male power fantasy.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Not a video game, but I remember my younger sister being really into Tamora Pierce's "Song of the Lioness" books when she was younger (so was I, but my opinion doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion). I think the protagonist from those might be a good example, what with all the wizard-stabbing, adventuring, wise-cracking, multiple-love-interest-having (think more James Bond than Bella Swan for that one), etc. I haven't read those books in like ten years, but I remember her being pretty cool.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that what men, essentially, find empowering is the ability to overcome/dominate insurmountable odds and be rewarded for it. The feeling of empowerment, for example, in games is when you are able to complete a complex puzzle or a difficult stage or defeat a big monster.

Apart of me would also guess that women feel the same way, in that what is empowering is the ability to overcome/dominate impossible odds and be rewarded.

EDIT: I could tone back the "impossible odds" thing, but we're talking about Hollywood and games here, so this is the most typical scenario we see.

The only deciding difference is means... which frankly only applies case by case.

Just for the sake of observation, what do the girls in the audience think of this character?

EDIT EDIT: I would also like to point out to certain folk, that being Manipulative is not a positive character trait, for men or women, unless its used to get the upper hand of an even worse manipulator. Even then, I find manipulation as a primary attribute to be less endearing towards a character.

 

[Eamar]

Well, maybe neither "power fantasy" or "role model" are the right terms, but to see what female characters girl gamers like/identify with/find interesting, I suspect we need look no further than cosplayers. What kind of characters do cosplayers pick? Well, usually either cutesy kawaii-neko weeaboo stuff, or some kick-ass chick in a skimpy outfit with swords/guns. So much for the Feminist ideal of a "strong woman", eh?

Where are all the girls cosplaying Alyx Vance or Jade from BG&E, or any of the other slim and fairly dull list of what we'd assume are feminist-approved characters?

I suppose one partial explanation is that the kind of girl who enjoys making costumes and then parading herself around in conventions or her Deviantart page is, by definition, not the kind of girl to whom the concepts of modesty or moderation are familiar.

Another possible explanation is that women actually don't feel universally repressed by overtly sexy female characters (or, for that matter, repulsed by macho male characters). Gears of War 3 actually has a sizeable female fanbase. We needn't be so eager to write off any depiction of masculinity/femininity as LOL PATRIARCHY AND CHAUVINISM. Anybody else remember the initial reaction to SkullGirls? The consensus did a neat 180 from "it's so demeaning" to "it's so empowering" the minute the female-led dev team was mentioned.

This thread has nothing to do with patriarchy (or feminism in general), or how women feel about sexualised characters, or even what we think constitutes a good female character (Alyx Vance, to most people, =/= power fantasy. Good character, but not power fantasy). The OP asked for women's opinions on what they would consider a "female power fantasy", and we've replied by giving examples of characters from various media that we individually feel fit that description.

Your rant is misplaced, is what I'm saying.

 

[Batou667]

This thread has nothing to do with patriarchy (or feminism in general), or how women feel about sexualised characters, or even what we think constitutes a good female character (Alyx Vance, to most people, =/= power fantasy. Good character, but not power fantasy). The OP asked for women's opinions on what they would consider a "female power fantasy", and we've replied by giving examples of characters from various media that we individually feel fit that description.

Your rant is misplaced, is what I'm saying.

Fair enough. I still have something of a head full of steam from reading about this Kickstarter debacle.. that, and whenever EvilTheCat starts talking about gender roles, I get an irresistable urge to contradict him.

 

[Eamar]

This thread has nothing to do with patriarchy (or feminism in general), or how women feel about sexualised characters, or even what we think constitutes a good female character (Alyx Vance, to most people, =/= power fantasy. Good character, but not power fantasy). The OP asked for women's opinions on what they would consider a "female power fantasy", and we've replied by giving examples of characters from various media that we individually feel fit that description.

Your rant is misplaced, is what I'm saying.

Fair enough. I still have something of a head full of steam from reading about this Kickstarter debacle.. that, and whenever EvilTheCat starts talking about gender roles, I get an irresistable urge to contradict him.

I know that feeling... (the head full of steam, not the contradicting EvilTheCat thing). Fair enough then.

 

[Dogstile]

snip

Umm... you do raise some interesting points, but how many adult women do you really know who aspire to be like Bella Swan? There may be some, but she's designed to appeal to pre-teens and teenagers and is something of a fantasy for girls in that age group, but not for many women.

Isn't every typical male power fantasy aimed at immature teen boys?

 

[Lunar Templar]

My contribution:

Spoiler

Lenneth?

she spends pretty much the whole game as a 'tool' (unless you get Ending A, which was fucking AWESOME), she even had her memory's wiped by Freya and Odin, doesn't sound very empowering to me (again, Ending A though)

so ... a little explanation would be in order, if you wouldn't mind

 

[Genericjim101]

All ideas of female power are a fantasy... I kid. I vote for Femshep who was fantastically voiced by Jennifer Hale. Hale got a sharper tone through even FShep's kinder lines and never once came off as cloying. Granted the character animations were funny with FemShep sitting like a guy trying to give his genitals room to hang.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I've found it interesting my my tenure of living that power is defined differently along the lines.

Strength of character in a male might be laughed at, while strength of character of a woman might lead an empire. Joan of Arc is a great example of that. Power for the most part has always been split along these lines. Can a man make a person or a country submit due this his physical endeavors. Can the way he battle not only defeat his foes, but rally his companions to follow his example. It's very telling that no matter the king or monarch, even if he was peace minded, he had his heirs taught in the ways of war because sometimes it's simply unavoidable.

Women to this day are still fighting to be respected. It's actually quite obvious to what a common idea of female power fantasy is to an average woman. Given that a lot of you fellow female posters are gamers, the argument can be made that you are not average women*, so I suspect that a good deal of you might not agree with this but I'll state it anyway.

The Female Power Fantasy of today is The *****. The woman who doesn't care about typical standards and will use any thing in her power to crush whatever is in her way. She is evil. She revels in it. And I can't stop hearing about how great these characters are. Characters like Regina Mills from Once Upon a Time, Vanessa Williams character was in Ugly Betty, Countless Reality tv stars... The woman might not be well liked, but so many women I know admire women like that who really couldn't care less about what people think about them and still reaches for their goals. We had Desperate Housewives, Don't trust that B in Apt 23, GCB... I'm starting to realize how much of this is produced by ABC.

Anyway. My point still stands. Men can prove their power through many ways, but we tend to like to fall on our brute strength. Women still need to prove they are worth our respect to so many people (read: I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE), so the idea of being a ***** who can humble most is appealing to a good number of people.




*Please be aware that I'm not going to make that argument, mainly because I like living. Seriously, I'd want most of you to battle along side me in games, but type the idea in google. Not only are those sentiments shared, but women respond to why average girls don't like games. and I am aware that some women also do respond, but in my travels a lot more women would rather do anything else than sit down to gaming

 

[Terminal Blue]

snip

There's a word the Nostalgia Chick used which I think I'm going to borrow here. The word is linets.

Love interest, non-essential to story.

Okay, so in the typical male-targeted narrative the hero saves the world and gets the girl, but in many cases other than maybe needing her to take a few plot-advancing actions which aren't driven by anything unique about her character and could be performed by any minor character with roughly the same effect, the girl doesn't really need to be there most of the time. She is often literally just there to get some boobies and a perfunctory kiss on screen.

And even if the character isn't a linets, it's often just because she's there to provide secondary motivation. "Oh no, the villain has kidnapped my girl! I mean I was going to fight him anyway because he's a dick and he's building a giant death ray to destroy the moon, but this just gives me even more motivation because now it's personal!" It's like having a support character die, it's a cheap way of ratcheting up the tension by showing that shit just got real.

Now, romantic stories designed for women often present men as crude stereotypes. "Oh, he's the douche with the hidden sensitive side", "oh, he's the nerdy guy who is actually really deep and romantic", "oh, he's the reliable but boring husband who isn't very exciting but will always be there for you", "oh, he's the guy who seems charming and into you but is actually a dick". It's often a bit crude and insulting, but only very, very rarely are these characters non-essential to the plot. In fact, they often are the plot. They're often the main thing the heroine interacts with to produce dramatic tension.

A few years ago I listened to a radio programme about romantic novels. See, this guy had written a story (about a guy) which some people were calling a romantic novel, and they got a bunch of real (a.k.a female) romantic authors in to talk about it. Anyway, several of these women took a really odd line, that actually it was impossible for men to write romance stories because this romantic search for the "perfect man" is the defining female experience. Now, even at the time I was fucking pissed off at that, but that's not because it's not kind of true but because they honestly saw it as a point of pride.

What am I getting at. Well, I think you're right in many ways. I certainly think you're right about men being damaged by the kinds of images they're expected to live up to (oh, so right), but it's a different thing.

snip

Actually, that's a very interesting point which I totally hadn't considered.

 

[ResonanceSD]

River

I think pretty much every other female character in that show is a better example than River.

You're saying that like it doesn't prove my point.

Kaylee ftw

 

[Justanewguy]

I'll use firefly as my reference.

here you go, a good female character.

You know, I'd have used Firefly as a reference for a good female character, but I would not have chosen River to portray that. Not because River isn't a good character, but because the things she embodies aren't necessarily that of a "female" character so much as a "tortured" character. Kaylee, who is sweet and naive at times, yet intelligent and opinionated, as well as portrayed as a genius mechanic, is someone I would consider as a good female character. She has the ability to enjoy the more feminine aspects of her character, she enjoys feeling pretty, and yet she's still going to fight for herself.

Zoe, of course, is a powerful female character as well, strong willed and kick-ass, yet able to still be a sexy and sultry individual.

Femininity, and feeling pretty doesn't preclude someone from being a strong female character. Lara Croft, for example, is often held up as a sexist depiction of a character, because she has a large pair of breasts which are often accentuated by her outfit. Despite this, Lara is also shown as being the most savvy of her compatriots, and the best in her field at what she does. She succeeds not because she's pretty, but because she's skilled.

That being said, I've often had a problem with this implication that beauty can't be useful to a woman or she's looked down upon. If a man is intelligent or athletic or attractive, they use that to get ahead. If a woman is intelligent or athletic, they're praised for using that to get ahead, and yet they're looked down upon for using their attractiveness to get ahead. Being attractive isn't bad, and flaunting attractiveness isn't slutty. That's something that I feel like the majority of males don't seem to understand. We're all so caught up in trying to be feminists that we miss the fact that equality between the sexes doesn't and shouldn't require a woman to hide her looks. A woman should be able to be proud of her beauty, not ashamed, and too many men, in trying not to be sexist, imply that a woman can't or shouldn't be beautiful.

 

[PirateRose]

For a female power fantasy in a game, I want to have that level of authority and respect all the guys get. There's no question about the characters ability because of her gender, everybody just knows she's good at what she does or has the potential to become great.
Mass Effect 2 has two examples for this.

First there is the opening scene when Shepard first appears. It is one of the most memorable scene for any game I have ever played. Just seeing my female Commander Shepard tell Kaidan to get his butt on the escape pod and he doesn't try to be all heroic and manly and crap. He respects his commanding officer and follows orders. If that scene had been written in a movie or a book or even in another game that only had a female lead(no male side the writers are focused on), Kaidan would have played the chivalrous hero and saved her from dying.

Now the other example, it's the bad side though. When you go to recruit Garrus, the batarian mocks female Shepard and acts like she's lost. Really? What the hell? I go through that crap every day because I work with technology. I'm always getting that attitude, do you really know what you're talking about? Aren't you cute, acting like you know stuff about technology. I don't want to hear that crap. I'm playing this game to escape that stuff. You'd think that batarian would have noticed the grenade launcher strapped to Shepard's back like the turian for Mordin's recruitment mission did.

Besides Shepard (Well, except in ME3, Bioware made some major immersion breaking choices for me), other female characters I've highly enjoyed playing as are:

KOTOR2: The Exile(I refuse to call her that awful canon name and I don't accept that she would die in such a crappy fashion. She defeated three and a half sith lords, only one of them she had support for.)

Dragon Age 2: Snarky Hawke ("If they're not dead, watch out for a bunch of boneless women flopping through the streets.")

Tomb Raider 1-5: Lara Croft (6 onward, everything went down the toilet with her personality.)

WET: Rubi Malone (Come on, she has a heart of gold under all that ***** persona.edit: Could have gone without the PMS sequences though)

Velvet Assassin: Violette Summer (Though admittedly, I wish she could have found some cloths for the end levels.)

Fallout New Vegas : The Courier (actually with this one, there were points won for a gender thing: I had wiped out the Legion camp by Cottonwood Cove, then wondered over to Camp Searchlight for the first time. Told this NCR soldier what happened and he said it was ironic with how they treat women, that a woman would come through and wipe them all out on her own.)

I think a lot of the best female characters fall under the RPGs, because the writers are mostly thinking for the male side of things, get lazy, and just copy paste most of the scenarios over. You end up with scenes meant for male characters, but with a female character in place, and it just seems to play out so naturally. Like men and women are just the same human beings with the similar behaviors.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

snip

That's a good word, I should use it more often. I think most good writers use those kind of things you describe as secondary to actually humanize the plot quite a bit. Since we're having a collective nerdgasm over Firefly right now, Joss Whedon has killed off multiple characters in order to amp up the plot, but it (usually) doesn't feel unnecessary. Shepard was a good death. Agent Colson was too. In good stories there really ISN'T anything that's not essential to the story that's in the final product, but that's good stories and that's not the majority by far.

And of course there are differences between things in the romantic comedy and things that are not. That is interesting about the romance writers though.

I was kind of talking about the generally crude stereotypes presented in the media marketed towards men. Because really movies like Transporter, or the Expendables, or the worst James Bond films aren't about the characters, they're about the different action scenes that can be set up.

However, if you take something like Casino Royale, which actually explored James Bond's character more, the love interest is not an accessory. She is in parts, sure, but she is rather central to the story and it couldn't be anywhere near the same without her.

I'm starting to think of this as less of a feminist issue, and more of an our-media-sucks issue.

snip

I think that has quite a bit of merit. Oddly it's specifically those kinds of characters that I dislike because I value respectfulness as a character trait pretty highly. Once somebody earns respect I think they should get it, no matter who they are.

 

[EclipseoftheDarkSun]

Another might be Samantha Carter in Stargate: SG1, or Ripley in Alien.

I am glad I am not the only one who thought of Carter!

So, how about the other strong female character in Alien(s)? Private Vasquez?

I realize some people could consider her a caricature given she's quite a 'tomboy', but..?