'Feminazi' is sadly one of the most common examples of Godwin in our society.

[TotalerKrieger]

Gamers in general are not the people to ask about feminism.
We haven't even started to sort out the sexism in our industry or community!
I can't even say I'm female without being sworn at, threatened or called an attention whore.

All the most reason to discuss and debate if you ask me. Perhaps if more gamers were a little more socially aware, a lot less immature, things like the chainmail bikini, one-dimensional female characters and the harassment female gamers would eventually become a thing of the past. As you said, these problems are pervsive throughout the entire of the video game industry/community. Some of the most sexist small-minded individuals I have ever met are nerdy, gamer types. As a nerdy gamer type, I don't want to be associated these people. Things need to change. It also gives the general public one more reason to view gaming as "lesser" art form.

 

[JoJo]

Godwin's law is stupid. Comparisons to Hitler and the nazis can be very useful, because pretty much everybody knows them and thinks of them as the quintessential representations of evil. It can obviously be misused, but you don't need a law that comments on the frequency or lack of creativity of the comparison to point that out.

I'm glad someone brought this up, Godwin's law is definitely used far too widely by many people. The law (which is only really a joke anyway) is only meant to apply to examples which are unwarranted (e.g. someone arguing against people having more than two kids by bringing up the Nazi's encouragement of German mothers to have many children) rather than genuine comparisons (e.g. someone arguing against fascism by using Nazi Germany as an example of many of the system's flaws).

 

[viranimus]

Feminism is sexism pure and simple. Only difference is that feminism is a tolerated and even accepted form of discrimination that is even passed down from generation to generation. The term Feminazi is simply the extremist position of that end that is created when you allow hatred and discrimination to be socially acceptable.

Allowing and encouraging hatred and discrimination to be considered socially acceptable? Cant imagine why anyone would want to draw comparisons to a group who wished to systematically and fundamentally destroy what it was they were fighting against.

 

[mad825]

You know how the Escapist is so known for calling people out for comparing anything to Nazis, even if it's an appropriate comparison?

This is the one time I've never seen it applied. And this is one of the most appropriate times to tell someone they're a nazi or compare them to nazis. Even if you disagree with some of the more extreme feminists, it's utterly ridiculous to compare them to nazis.

That's because you are missing the point. It's a mere figure of speech used to compare the extremism.

Weren't the Black Panthers like the Nazis so to speak?

They weren't particularly different. Especially when they got attached to the Nation of Islam movements and became Antisemitic. There's even a marginally well-known protest wherein both the Panthers/Nation of Islam and the KKK were protesting the same kind of Jewish bogeyman that Europe had for centuries.


Also, more On Topic, this smacks of Muslims or Christians getting mad because people are talking down about Creationists or al-Qaeda. Normal people in modern 1st and 2nd World countries don't perpetuate sex discrimination, and those who do, either under the guise of Feminism or Tradition, get called out by people who do not agree with them.

...I was just making a point, never meant anyone to go in-depth.

 

[ZeroMachine]

Those guys that gave you shit for simply being female should be banned from whatever game/service/forum/etc. they gave you shit on (in fact, that may be possible if you pursued it). It's understandable that after an experience like that you'd be apprehensive. But if you let apprehension turn into "we shouldn't bother trying to discuss this with ANYONE that plays video games because of what I've dealt with", it becomes bigotry. Do you see my point?

Sort of.
(And I have reported people for sexism before, as far as I know, nothing happened).
I'm not saying I wouldn't discuss feminism and gender issues with gamers, I would, on a one-to-one basis. But with the whole boys club thing that this community has, its easy to get your voice drowned out by people who dont care, or misunderstand feminism at the very basic level. These threads generally just turn into shit-slinging at straw-feminists.
I believe any decent person, male or female, should be a feminist (in the orignal meaning, of wanting men and women to be equal).

You're kind of understanding where I'm coming from, then, if just at a very "entry level" stage.

People that want equality for women are feminists. As you said, any decent person.

I know a few people that claim that all men are either rapists or support rape because they find women that wear makeup and try to look "prettier" attractive. That attitude, among many other things wrong with one of the women in question, has had a SEVERE effect on the emotional, mental, and moral development of her son, a good friend of mine, to the point where he's straight up afraid to admit he likes a girl just because he finds her physically attractive.

Women like that are what I, and many others, refer to as "feminazis". Women who feel that, instead of equality, women should be in charge because men can never be trusted.

ANYONE who uses it in a way to define normal feminists who want equality deserve a nice, hard punch to the face.

Am I helping you understand the opposing argument here at all?

(Also, damn shame nothing was done about those pricks. Next time it happens, pursue it until their ears bleed, make a point of it. Maybe it'll help things.)

 

[Something Amyss]

Also:

We haven't even started to sort out the sexism in our industry or community

It's hard when you can't even mention the term without defensive vitriol about how we're not a sexist community.

 

[Phasmal]

Gamers in general are not the people to ask about feminism.
We haven't even started to sort out the sexism in our industry or community!
I can't even say I'm female without being sworn at, threatened or called an attention whore.

All the most reason to discuss and debate if you ask me. Perhaps if more gamers were a little more socially aware, a lot less immature, things like the chainmail bikini, one-dimensional female characters and the harassment female gamers would eventually become a thing of the past. As you said, these problems are pervsive throughout the entire of the video game industry/community. Some of the most sexist small-minded individuals I have ever met are nerdy, gamer types. As a nerdy gamer type, I don't want to be associated these people. Things need to change. It also gives the general public one more reason to view gaming as "lesser" art form.

You are probably right.
I do get tired of fighting this fight though.
I'm one of those gamers who doesn't hide my gender, because I hope other female gamers will do the same and we will be seen as less of a novelty and a joke.
The problems are many, and a lot you cant report for. Like someone dismissing your kills as lag or luck, insisting on explaining everything or `protecting` you, or loudly exclaiming `DUDE YOU JUST GOT SNIPED BY A GIRL` to anyone I kill.

 

[Jordi]

If you support equality of people in general, then that shapes your opinion on all of these things, but feminism itself focuses completely on the (in)equality between men and women. It is a worthy enough cause on it's own.

Actually, I think for most feminists, certainly educated feminists who have read about the movement, feminism is a system for understanding gender and critiquing inequality in general, not just an argument that men and women need to be equal (whatever that means any more, I don't think it's as clear cut as it was for Mary Wollstonecraft).

You'll often see feminists reading Frantz Fanon, for example, even though he's a black man writing about race. The model of inequality he uses is a very relevant one to feminists, he comes from the same place as other existential humanists like Simone de Bouvoir so he remains hugely important to a particular era of feminist thought. Nowadays, probably the most famous "feminist" writer alive (Judith Butler) is far more famous for her work on sexuality, because to her the regulation of gender roles are absolutely implicated in the treatment of gender non-conformity.

I think I'm with Lilith on this one. Most feminists today, though by no means all, are very invested in wider issues in social inequality. Indeed, you can't just point to "women" as a homogenous mass of people with similar trials and tribulations without acknowledging that there are differences between women which carry their own forms of inequality and discrimination.

Feminism is all about gender. Race and even sexual orientation are just not issues for feminism. In at least certain aspects all of these causes care about (in)equality of groups of people. If you believe in general equality of all people, then you should support gender, racial and LGBT equality. In other words, it is one reason to become a feminist. If this is your reason, then of course you could learn things from people who for the same reason chose to fight against racism.
But there are other reasons. For instance, someone might want to fight the feminist fight because they think women are superior or out of purely selfish reasons (e.g. they're women themselves and want a bigger paycheck), and it wouldn't really make them any less of a feminist. You can clearly see why these reasons would not necessarily lead to e.g. anti-racism.

But aside from the orthogonal nature of these laudable causes, do you really think it's necessary to try to make people like feminists better by saying that "most of them" also support other causes? Isn't fighting for gender equality enough? And if it isn't, then why would you trying to make feminism look better anyway?

 

[manic_depressive13]

After going through your previous posts I have established you're no more than a troll, And im not rising to you, You're not worth the effort.

I beg your pardon? Please point out my mistakes or accept defeat. Randomly accusing people who disagree with you of being trolls without the slightest explanation is the lowest form of trolling. That really is pathetic.

 

[Rule Britannia]

I don't care for the comments on the video but T.J. makes a very valid point about feminism.

Oh and I'm sure people who care nazis to feminists don't actually mean it, they're mean it in a sarcastic way (sorta) they realise feminists don't kill jews and shoot people.

 

[Phasmal]

I don't care for the comments on the video but T.J. makes a very valid point about feminism.

Isn't that the guy who recently told a rape victim to drown in semen?
Yeah, lets ask him about feminism.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/02/08/horrible-people-dont-realize-theyre-horrible/
Yep thats him.

 

[Crazycat690]

IMO the whole idea about feminism in the western world is obsolete, we don't have a society anymore where women are that heavily discriminated against. What I dislike about extremist feminists is that they indeed believe themselves to be superior, they wont stay grounded. They say men are animals because we treat women like sex objects, newsflash, we are all animals and women are indeed sex objects and vice versa, otherwise the human race would die (as said by Hugh Hephner).

Men are really getting discriminated agains in the modern western world... Who gets the child in most cases in a divorce? The woman. Which sex gets more often sent to jail? Men. Who gets laughed at when raped by the opposite sex? Men. The fact is that a woman can simply say that a man raped her and even if it's a lie the man will always have that stamp and the woman will simply laugh. I want to refer to Bill Burr's stand up when he said "woman are assholes", not because they are but they can, because it is socially unacceptable to hit a woman while it's perfectly acceptable to hit a man if he steps over the line.

Yes women are being discriminated against, so are men and different races, children and old people. The word feminism is as earlier said, obsolete, we simply need to fight for equality even though we will never achieve total equality. Just another testamente to the fact that we are nothing but selfish animals, including women.

 

[ZeroMachine]

I don't care for the comments on the video but T.J. makes a very valid point about feminism.

Isn't that the guy who recently told a rape victim to drown in semen?
Yeah, lets ask him about feminism.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/02/08/horrible-people-dont-realize-theyre-horrible/
Yep thats him.

The reasons for me to despise that man keep piling up.

 

[FinalHeart95]

I think it's just an inappropriate title for the movement. "Feminism" implies that they're going for female superiority, not female equality.
As for my feelings about it, it's "meh". While the feminists that actually want equality are good in my book, there are some that just legitimately hate men. Granted, that's not a majority, but it's there.

 

[Catie Caraco]

The problem I have with feminists is that in my experience they dont want Superiority[/I]. In the western world nowadays the amount of genuine sexism in the work place is at an all time low. Men and women are treated equally in society.

There is still an argument about Pay Scales I agree, but I tend to find that feminists are a little bit like PETA, Blowing things completely out of proportion.

There are gender imbalances in society, Take for example the fact that a woman can go out for a few drinks, pull a random guy, take him home and sleep with him, then accuse him of rape. Under UK law drunken consent is not consent, meaning he is guilty of rape. I dont see that as fair, but that's just a gender imbalance.

And, you know, the random guy can always just say no. He isn't an animal to be unable to refuse anyone who flashes him their tits. Also, rape cases rarely, rarely get convictions. She can take him to court and the guy can say "I didn't know she was drunk" and hey presto, freedom. Hardly the tyrinical law you make it out to be.

This. Also, drunken consent works for males too, you know. My first semester at a four year college the R.A. on my floor lost her position and was kicked out of school because she got a freshman male drunk then offered him sex. He said yes, then the next morning felt terribly guilty about it and went to the Campus Police. He had not been a virgin previously, nor did he have a girlfriend. He just, rightly, felt that his ability to consent had been stripped from him. He'd been friends with the R.A. but had no sexual attraction to her. (I happen to know so much because I was friends with his roommate. It all happened on my floor, after all).

So all in all, that's a very weak example, since it protects both males and females. I'm not sure how the case would proceed if both participants were drunk, but unless there was physical evidence of trauma to either of the participants, it would probably be thrown out for lack of evidence.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

It is not the proper meaning of the term.

Actually, it is. You're using a term coined by Rush Limbaugh that was used them to compare feminists to Nazis and still is today.

So please, don't YOU try and change the term. That was too funny.

The other funny thing, aside from you trying to change the meaning of a word and complaining about me trying to change it, is we otherwise seem to disagree about nothing, since your rant was more or less preaching to the choir. Still, the lack of self-awareness is just too good to not point out.

If anyone's co-opting the term, it is NOT the people who coined the term to slur feminists. That's EXACTLY what it's supposed to mean, from the mouths of its originators.

And if you want to use it in another fashion, feel free. Just keep in mind that when you say "Feminazi," it's commonly equated with feminists. As was the exact intention. Don't complain if people "misuse" it since you are yourself.

Additionally, the post you got huffy about had little to nothing to do with you anymore. But thanks for pointing yourself out to me again. Your last rant on the same subject didn't make it to my inbox for some reason, and I would have otherwise missed this "that's not what it means!" Bull.

That may be the origin but the way most people use it is similar to how people say "grammar-Nazi" as has been pointed out in this thread plenty. It may have meant that then but now the meaning has changed and this is what people who say it mean by it. I'm not trying to change the meaning of the term, I'm trying to alert you to the fact that it has changed.


I wasn't complaining about you trying to change it btw, I was complaining about you using the wrongly applied examples of a term to show why it should be not used any more. Many terms are wrongly applied and yet we don't change them or ban them, we just inform those who misuse them that they're being wrong.

 

[dobahci]

It isn't a comparison, nobody is saying they're Nazis by calling them feminazis. What people are doing by calling them that is saying that they're fanatical. It isn't an ideological link, it's an attitude link.

That's still a Godwin though. Even if you aren't saying that feminists are Nazis in any kind of literal sense, you're still essentially poking them in the ribs and saying "Hey, you're kind of fanatical. You know who else was fanatical? I'll give you a hint! They lived in the 1930s in Germany, and MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DIED!"

Yeah, I'm with the OP on this one. The term is pointless, belittling, and not conducive to constructive debate, and I don't see any reason why the people who use it shouldn't be called out right from the outset. There is literally NO reason to use it when you can just use the term "feminist" and discuss the issue like a civilized, educated person.

And if you're talking about one of those "radical" feminists who happens to be in the news, you could always just say "radical feminist". Just as a general observation, guys who casually say "I'm all for gender equality, but I have a few problems with feminism..." as if they can cavalierly critique an entire social movement in the space of a paragraph often show themselves to know almost nothing about it.