Feminism: has it gone to far?

[Generic_Dave]

Women still earn a large percentage less than men for similar work and employment...they make up substantially smaller proportions of high income earners, CEO's, managers, professors etc...

Look at the world of games design...I can't name a single woman connected to gaming...well Rebecca Mayes...but she doesn't make games.

Feminism will have gone far enough when women form a proportion of business, social and political leaders equivalent to their proportion of society. About 52%, there are more of them than there are of us. From social norms (men are "playas" women are "hos", men are "strong" women are "weak".) to the workplace, feminism needs to work harder.

Feminism has not gone too far. In fact it has not gone far enough.

"you did not get a political office because god gave you a vagina, you got a political office because the people trust you" - me.

why don't we instate a CASTE SYSTEM while we are at it if physical attributes trump ideas, rhetoric, and charisma? gender plays no role in jobs and should NOT. fun fact, feminists use the lowest wages wages from one job in an industry and say its the wage for women in the entire industry. feminism is no longer a good organization, merely a corpse used by power hungry assholes as a puppet. same thing happened with religion, unions, etc now it happened with feminism.

Two issues with this, probably both to do with choice of language than the actual idea behind your statement. But anyway, I shall attend them. First "rhetoric and charisma"? Should anyone, apart from someone who is in PR or fund raising get any kind of job based on these? Secondly a Caste System is a fixed system which one cannot move out of based upon parents level in society, I'll admit applying a fixed number (as I admit I did) to the proportion of any group in a work place is a bad idea, but should the number of people in professions at least be closer to the balance of society than it is. I mean the proportion of Fortune 500 companies with female bosses is substantially less than even 10%. Even if some jobs were to appeal to the sexes less broadly than others I still think this is shamefully low.

Also, your end comment about a "corpse held up by power hungry assholes as a puppet" I will agree that those people exist, but to write off an entire movement/ideology because of a few bad eggs (though they be loud, and more noticeable) just strikes me as too broad stroke. There are crazy, stupid or ignorant people pushing everything. That does not mean that everything which is pushed by crazy, stupid or ignorant people is wrong. As with all things, it is not the actual premise itself that is wrong, it is the persons involved.

 

[Citizen.Erased]

It will never go far enough. There will always be misogyny and I laugh at those who say that women are 'equal' in the western world. I am fucking proud to be a feminist.

Being a feminist means to me is that maybe one day women will make as much money as men, that they will have more chances of being employed into high positions, that violence against women will stop being brushed aside, that we will stop living in a rape culture, that we will stop being seen as sex objects or baby making machines and that men will stop thinking themselves better than us.

Bloody hell, what kind of men have you encountered?
I can't name a single one of my mates, or indeed any male I know, who thinks anything like that.

That's because you're a man as well. Either you don't realize the sexism or you have the most angelic group of friends known to mankind. I've known police men who told a domestic abuse victim that she was making a mess out of nothing, I've been catcalled in the streets by strangers and groped in clubs by guys who thought it wasn't a big deal and I've had male teachers not hiding very well that fact they they largely favored the male side of the class. That's without counting all the various stupid shit that I've heard men say in my everyday life. Don't act so surprised because it happens a hell of a lot.

 

[aphex_twin2002]

It's not gone far enough, if you ask me. In the UK at least it's only gone so far as to let women do the things that men do, without giving men any of the things women have.

Women live longer, but retire earlier. If you're female, car insurance is 30% cheaper. Female schoolteachers can look after male and female kids on a multiple day trip, but male teachers can only watch male kids. Only women get any say on abortions. In a rape/domestic assault the law tends to be on the womans side.

Good luck seeing that addressed. (The retirement age is being sorted, but not for another decade or something stupid)

Firstly, insurance quotes are done on a complex set of averages which undeniably show that women are less likely than men to make a claim on their car insurance. You will also find that married people and students get lower quotes. The isn't some conspiracy against the unmarried or non-students. It is just based on statistics.
Secondly, given that only 5% of rape cases end in conviction I wouldn't maintain that the law is on the woman's side.

Apart from a few sensible people defending femenism, this thread has been a cesspool of misogynistic tripe. So many posts from men who have some twisted idea of equality where they have the right to hit whoever they want. The fact men think it is somehow ok to hit another man is just an example of how patriarchy damages men just as much as women and femenism tends to rail against this too.
So many posts where men use anecdotal evidence (or at worst The Hangover) to justify their views on women. I have never been in circumstances where a woman has demanded that I pay for a date and if they did I can safely say that the date would be over there and then. Men who pony up for every date are again being damaged by the patriarchy which dictates that men have to be the ones who pay. Femenism is against this.
Femenism has not gone far enough at all and any man with an ounce of sense will realise that greater equality is in his sex's interest too.

 

[Boba Frag]

Thank you, this sums up my feeling quite well (though if I said it out loud I would probably get maced by someone, a medival mace)

But yes they should really calm down. One memorable moment is when I held a door open for one woman and she repayed that now with a 'thanks' or anything, but lecture on how women can do things on their own and im a chauvinist pig for trying to hold her back.

My reaction: 0_0 wat?

This happened to me, and I didn't hold the door for her later. And got yelled at for not holding the door, and a lecture on chivalry being dead.
I can't win!
Apparently, men need to exercise their telepathetic/telepathic abilities. Or hide in a box.

Wow, sounds like you just had plain bad luck with random crazy people!

I would have unceremonisiously told them to go and f*** themselves- that is just plain rude and horrible.

Male or female, if someone holds the door open for you, they're being polite and you should return the favour by having manners.

Anyway, I think we need to get a good definition of actual modern feminism before this thread goes any further because it's such a huge, huge topic and it's quite complex.

A vague OP doesn't really point is in any particular direction...

That's my two cents.

And now, for something completely different:

http://mrjam.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c00c753ef0120a6139776970c-pi


Yeah, I'm in a funny mood.

if you're going to mention and now for something completly different:
There must be monty python

Absolutely!
Although in my defense, I was practically falling over asleep at the monitor because it was around 3 am...

Well played, sir!

 

[Generic_Dave]

rhetoric is used for higher end offices, and if you cant get people on your side then you wont get the job. limiting people because of who they are should not play a role. CEOs, presidents, government officials all use words to convince people their side is correct. using words is the foundation to being a leader and in a world of follow or be followed that makes a sizable difference.

Yes, I agree it is used for this...but I generally find that it is mis-used...rhetoric is more often used to undermine and mislead than anything else. Personally I prefer my leaders (business of otherwise) to be technically nuanced rather than good at working a room. But while I'm wishing for horses, I might as well wish for a Mechagodzilla for my back garden...

I also reckon that the fact that they are women comes into the equation, and as you state that should not play a role. I worked in a large multi-national company for four years and though the majority of the staff at the base (i.e. my level) were female, there were only about 5 female team leaders (from around 20-30), and there were NO women above that level...I dunno, maybe I'm drawing too much from that, and there is always an argument to be made for special circumstances, maybe most of the women employed in the company did not want to advance, perhaps they had less interest in it...but I find this argument a bit too close to arguing that poor people are poor because they are lazy for comfort. Anyway that's not the argument you were making and I got side-tracked somewhere. It's early here and I am hungover. But I do feel that women are under-represented generally.

[EDIT] Just for the giggles...

 

[JediMB]

Feminism is not the same thing as radical feminism or straw feminism.

Male feminist here, and the goal of equality between genders (not to mention "races", spiritual or political beliefs, and social classes) is far from accomplished.

 

[Palademon]

Well, I hate that most examples I see aren't actually for female empowerment and equality, but for females to take the male's classic role of being in-charge.

 

[Citizen.Erased]

Well, I hate that most examples I see aren't actually for female empowerment and equality, but for females to take the male's classic role of being in-charge.

What's wrong with that? Why can't some women be in charge? Why is it the men's 'classic' role?

 

[tehroc]

No it hasn't come far enough yet, women still clutch on to that victim card and play it more then minorities play the race card.

 

[Generic_Dave]

rhetoric is used for higher end offices, and if you cant get people on your side then you wont get the job. limiting people because of who they are should not play a role. CEOs, presidents, government officials all use words to convince people their side is correct. using words is the foundation to being a leader and in a world of follow or be followed that makes a sizable difference.

Yes, I agree it is used for this...but I generally find that it is mis-used...rhetoric is more often used to undermine and mislead than anything else. Personally I prefer my leaders (business of otherwise) to be technically nuanced rather than good at working a room. But while I'm wishing for horses, I might as well wish for a Mechagodzilla for my back garden...

I also reckon that the fact that they are women comes into the equation, and as you state that should not play a role. I worked in a large multi-national company for four years and though the majority of the staff at the base (i.e. my level) were female, there were only about 5 female team leaders (from around 20-30), and there were NO women above that level...I dunno, maybe I'm drawing too much from that, and there is always an argument to be made for special circumstances, maybe most of the women employed in the company did not want to advance, perhaps they had less interest in it...but I find this argument a bit too close to arguing that poor people are poor because they are lazy for comfort. Anyway that's not the argument you were making and I got side-tracked somewhere. It's early here and I am hungover. But I do feel that women are under-represented generally.

[EDIT] Just for the giggles...

that's the culture's fault. women generally want men to show leadership and it turned into a cultural stigma that women can't lead. we take cultural cues from ancient cultures that used slaves. a society that wants to make a big gap between them and slavers taking cues from a slaver culture? funny isn't it? same thing with the double standards that men cant defend themselves against a woman attacker. women are not kitchen-bound anymore and can be BODYBUILDERS, BOXERS, and have other fighting professions that a average person cant take. hell i know some women large enough to take on male boxers and bodybuilders even if they DON'T hold back punches. people don't have set roles anymore and anyone can become a fighting machine. A five year old boy made headlines years ago by becoming as muscular as a professional bodybuilder for christ sakes.

Yeah, completely off-topic but that kid was the creepiest thing I've ever seen, and I've seen "two girls one cup" and "one man one cup". [As an aside, if you haven't seen "one man, one cup" I strongly advise you do NOT use my mentioning it to Google it and watch...it's not worth it]

 

[Palademon]

Well, I hate that most examples I see aren't actually for female empowerment and equality, but for females to take the male's classic role of being in-charge.

What's wrong with that? Why can't some women be in charge? Why is it the men's 'classic' role?

I have nothing wrong with women being in-charge. My point was that the only examples I've seen lately are those who are complaining purely because a man is in charge instead of them and want all females to control everything.

 

[Hawgh]

Well, I hate that most examples I see aren't actually for female empowerment and equality, but for females to take the male's classic role of being in-charge.

What's wrong with that? Why can't some women be in charge? Why is it the men's 'classic' role?

because women want men to take charge in statistics, especially in relationships. this kept on until it became a social stigma. culture is something that is copy-pasted from ancient patriarch oriented cultures since we seemed to lose the ability to make our own.

But..if they want men to take charge, why are they taking charge themselves?

I'm confused.

Opinion on topic: Lotsa people still think that men and women have radically different worth, so the feminists obviously aren't done yet.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Women are still less likely to be paid the same as men in the same job. Hold less political positions. To make matters worse they are also (still) excluded from working in various fields even in the OECD. I fail to see exactly how you mean that the feminist movement has actually completed it's goal in the proper treatment and respect show towards women, whether in the workforce or politics.