God of War 4 so far changed too much for the worse.

[happyninja42]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding of a Greek tragedy is that it's supposed to show how mortal men are but playthings for the gods, and that if one of the gods sets their sights on you you're a slave to their will. And to me Kratos never felt like his hand was being guided by anyone other than himself. His "tragedy" is suppposed to sort of reflect that of Hercules who also murdered his family, but he was driven mad by Hera. So his actions where beyond his control due to the malevolence of a god.

I think you're forgetting how he was convinced by Athena that if he killed Ares, he would be forgiven for his crimes. And the fact that he mis-interpreted what she said to him. The entire narrative thrust of the first game is him going to kill a god, at the behest of another god, with the intent to be forgiven. Which isn't what happens. He realizes at the end, that he can't be forgiven, and so he decides to kill himself by jumping off a cliff. But the gods, deny him his choice of an ending, and literally yank him up to Olympus, and force him to become the God of War. Athena even says something along the lines of "I told you X, I never said you would get Y"

If that's not an example of "plaything of the gods", then I don't know what is. xD

I'm personally very optimistic of this new GoW game, because I'm pretty sure that what we are seeing is the creation of the Norse pantheon, with Kratos becoming Odin, and the little boy being Thor. And the "Ready for what's coming" is Ragnarok, something that Kratos unleashed when he couch fucked the Greek world in GoW 3.

 

[JamesStone]

It's been a decade or so since I played GW 1, but I could've sworn in the final reveal with Ares, that he says it was basically his plan the entire time to have Kratos kill his own family, because basically "They were holding you back! Now look at the instrument of destruction you have become without them!" kind of villain logic? Isn't that true, or am I remembering that game wrong at this point? Also, I'm still pretty sure that Ares ordered him to go into that village and kill everyone, him being a loyal servant to Ares and all. So it would still be Ares fault essentially. Yes, Kratos could've shown restraint and caution, but as we both agree, that isn't(wasn't) in his nature. He was a dyed in the wool, drank the koolaid, loyal servant of Ares. If he told him to go somewhere and kill everyone, he'd do it.

But even if it isn't ultimately Ares fault for aiming him at his own family, I still don't think it lessens the tragedy of it. Plenty of stories depict highly skilled assholes, that let their own ego and ambition and bloodlust get in the way of doing The Right Thing, and then they have to try and atone for it, with varying levels of success.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding of a Greek tragedy is that it's supposed to show how mortal men are but playthings for the gods, and that if one of the gods sets their sights on you you're a slave to their will. And to me Kratos never felt like his hand was being guided by anyone other than himself. His "tragedy" is suppposed to sort of reflect that of Hercules who also murdered his family, but he was driven mad by Hera. So his actions where beyond his control due to the malevolence of a god.

Even with Kratos having killed his family in a dumb, violent rage attack, he could've made for a compelling protagonist in the first game, but unfortunately he's still given these moments where he's a right ****. He doesn't show remorse for his past actions through present actions or even behavior, he just keeps on getting others willfully caught up in his slaughter. The fact that it's about Kratos' revenge and not his retribution says it all. It's sort of a side plot/bonus extra that he thinks performing his task will cease his nightmares, but his blind vengeance is front and centre.

What saves the narrative concept of God of War 1 is the story of the architect of the Temple of Pandora. There you really get a sense of a guy who gets taken in and seduced by the gods, and who ends up sacrificing his own family in the process. It's only short notes, but they get the point across. And the size and lunacy of the temple itself hammers home how insane the demands of the gods are and how completing it would've cost his sons their lives and the archtect his sanity.

But Kratos is too driven into a state of madness by Hares. The cutscene for God of War where his family's death depicted shows him in a Berserker state, unable to recognize anyone. He kills because he's been ordered to by Ares, who saved him from death at the hands of the Barbarian King, and constantly drives him to become more and more bloodthirsty, more rageful in combat.

And he does show remorse for his actions. He merely believes himself tainted beyond all salvation. For example, the trapped Spartan soldier at the beginning of the game. At first he tries to save him and navigate his cage. He then realizes that a sacrifice is needed to continue crossing, and he does it. But the look on his face and his voice tells us he's obviously upset with having to do so, but he does it anyways, because he's after killing a God, and he doesn't believe there's any chance for him to be a better man, and as such embraces his own darkness just enough to try to get vengeance.


Have you forgotten about the ending of God of War? He tries to commit suicide because he cannot deal with what he had done, not just killing his family, but everything up to that point. He is saved by Athena and forced to become the new God of War, literally unable to die and forced to live with what he's done for eternity. Is it such a wonder he ends completely apathetic to everything at 2 and 3?


IMO 2 and 3 didn't have a good story, and Kratos' character was a good part of it. But he certainly wasn't just some rage-filled douche, and you're grossly oversimplifying and wrongly remembering a big part of the first game's story.

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

I might almost be interested in this game, but since it's Kratos, who is literally the most relentlessly unpleasant protagonist I've ever encountered in a game, I couldn't care less.

 

[happyninja42]

I might almost be interested in this game, but since it's Kratos, who is literally the most relentlessly unpleasant protagonist I've ever encountered in a game, I couldn't care less.

And if part of the game concept is that he has changed, is no longer such a douchenozzle, would you be interested in the game?

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think you're forgetting how he was convinced by Athena that if he killed Ares, he would be forgiven for his crimes. And the fact that he mis-interpreted what she said to him. The entire narrative thrust of the first game is him going to kill a god, at the behest of another god, with the intent to be forgiven. Which isn't what happens. He realizes at the end, that he can't be forgiven, and so he decides to kill himself by jumping off a cliff. But the gods, deny him his choice of an ending, and literally yank him up to Olympus, and force him to become the God of War. Athena even says something along the lines of "I told you X, I never said you would get Y"

If that's not an example of "plaything of the gods", then I don't know what is. xD

I know, but that always felt snowed under by the revenge plot. It's neat how Athena only ever says 'forgive' and not 'forget', and how even we as the audience aren't actively aware of it till the end, but I don't feel the game pushes the search for retribution for Kratos' acts. I never felt like I (Kratos) was suffering through these ordeals to be obsolved, but simply to get the power to kill a dude.

And he does show remorse for his actions. He merely believes himself tainted beyond all salvation. For example, the trapped Spartan soldier at the beginning of the game. At first he tries to save him and navigate his cage. He then realizes that a sacrifice is needed to continue crossing, and he does it. But the look on his face and his voice tells us he's obviously upset with having to do so, but he does it anyways, because he's after killing a God, and he doesn't believe there's any chance for him to be a better man, and as such embraces his own darkness just enough to try to get vengeance.

Yeah, but what about the guy he kicks down the Hydra's throat when he could've easily saved him?

Have you forgotten about the ending of God of War? He tries to commit suicide because he cannot deal with what he had done, not just killing his family, but everything up to that point. He is saved by Athena and forced to become the new God of War, literally unable to die and forced to live with what he's done for eternity. Is it such a wonder he ends completely apathetic to everything at 2 and 3?

I've always had a hard time getting behind this idea. Kratos has done terrible things throughout the game's running, but the game obviously wants you to take great joy in it. And not the double sided joy, where you're shocked that you're enjoying it, but the cartoon violence type joy. I had a blast ripping off heads and tearin' shit up. And by the end it seemed like the reason Kratos tries to kill himself is because his vengeance was the only thing keeping him going. There's two cutscenes -- one at the beginning and one at the end -- where Kratos talks about wanting the nightmares to end, but throughout the majority of the game nearly every word from his mouth is about him wanting to kill Ares.

God of War 1 is one of my favourite games, and it does have a more stable depiction of Kratos (though still not as sympathetic as in Ascension), but the way he's written is still kinda crap.

 

[SweetShark]

Okay, the god of war series has been basically a testosterone fueled male power fantasy with no barriers in what it wants to do. Which is ok, I enjoyed that experience also, and I identified why it pulled so many cathartic strings while playing and appreciated that unbridled glee. They didn't care about writing a relatable character, that much is obvious to us all...they cared about making badass shit happens in style. That was a fun experience undoubtedly. Why dissect a pure conduit? I believe that is a waste of valuable neuron burning. Dissect the reason why the conduit was the end result.

But you can only keep that up so much, eventually there needs to come the period of growing up, maturing, becoming self aware enough to know your strengths but not to constantly push them, because if you keep pushing the extremes, you will run out of ways to create "wow" moments pandering to literally one specific emotion. Creators grow up, writers, all these people don't want to ride on their past tropes, not ones with a sense of integrity at least. You have to understand that passionate writers will not keep writing and trying the same old shit purely because it is popular. They want to experiment and go for more nuance. It's kind of like how so many disliked Guy Ritchie's "Revolver" film because it wasn't another lock stock or snatch. He has openly said he will never do a lock stock 2 just because that's what they expect him to make. Creators grow up and want to tell deeper stories. Don't let nostalgia hold you back, dude.

I love you Bear.
Yes, I am in the same boat as you for this. If Developers using all the time the same formula over and over again, they burn up badly. For sure the new God of War won't change a lot from the aspect of gameplay, but it can at least tell us a intersting story of cooldown God which decided to mature as a person and try to help his son learn good examples from him as a father figure.
Plus the change of Theme from The Greek Pantheon to North Gods is very interesting I really want what kind of creature/gods will from the perspective of tjose developers. Also we must not forget the fan of ceatine fan theories of what happened or wht will happen in the game story wise. Maybe Kratos take the hammer of thor, maybe he will fight Hel, maybe become a new god of war again, maybe we will see ****** once again plotting killing us with h** real allies.

On a personal note, I really liked the moment in the trailer which Kratos tried to act more like more suitable father image, but failed maybe because of fear. What kind of fear? We will see.

 

[SweetShark]

Plus we must not forget an interesting thing we saw in the end of GOW 1 ending:
After he sit in Ares throne to become the new God of War, we saw flashback of him causing lot of wars not only his time period, but for many decades. At some point we see he cause the WW1 also...

Maybe the whole point of the seriesis to see Kratos becoming a.....Universal Personification of War.
Maybe it will become loke Highlander at this point: There can be only one!!!

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

The video makes some decent points. It's a rant video, it's emotionally motivated, but the criticism of the choice of camera angle and the (by now) derivative father-son bonding plotline is fair enough. It really hits when you just compare clips of the gameplay, from GoW 1 to GoW 2; they look like completely different types of games.

So, yeah. The video made me think a bunch, then re-think some. They're trying to switch up shit for the fourth installment. They say stupid shit in interviews; that's normal, not everyone can stay coherent during an interview, and quote mining is a thing. What kinda gnaws at me is that the "new" direction isn't...well, it's not that new. It's clearly aiming for a Tomb Raider, Last of Us-style "interactive movie" kind of game. Maybe that's just the natural evolution of the franchise's overuse of quicktime events, but more importantly, the virtue in trying something new with a stale franchise is undermined when the "new" approach is really just mimicking more recent successes.

I get the feeling that this ought to have been a new IP. Perhaps it started out as a new IP, some kind of Viking fantasy action game, and much later on they merged it with the shambling undead horror that the GoW franchise had become. It wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened. Actually, if this was a new IP, I'd be mad psyched about it. But it isn't. It's God of War, aka "the punchline [http://johnnycompton.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/penny-arcade.jpg]."

So it's telling me that it's God of War, but my memories of hauling the coach in front of my friend's borrowed Playstation while my parents were on vacation and spending the day crushing minotaur skulls and de-winging harpies contradict that. It's not God of War, not really. There's a guy, and he's called Kratos, but he's suspiciously bearded (a disguise???) and behaves completely differently to the bloodthirsty edgelord of my teenage summer holidays. Why? Why give me this new and otherwise intriguing game, then doll it up as something it isn't to cash in on my nostalgia? It's like buying a new car, then painting it brown and insisting it's a horse, just because you think it might remind me of that one time I rode a horse called Ocker when I was thirteen and had the most fun than I've ever had riding a quadrupedal ungulate.

Spoiler: Off-topic

Is there a way to balance engaging narratives with enjoyable gameplay without swinging too hard one way and becoming either pretentious or juvenile? I mean, my favourite game in the last three months has been Shovel Knight, which has a plot only slightly more complex than Mario but which made me feel like an electronic god every time a boss went down for the first time. My mother saw me celebrating after killing Spectre Knight for the first time, and I suspect she thought I was having a stroke. She was perplexed to see that I was so agitated over a cartoony, pixellated platformer about a diminuitive knight with a shovel and a thirst for justice.

But then I compare that to something like Bioshock Infinite, which had a genuinely engaging roller-coaster style combat system wrapped around a rock-solid core narrative whose climax dug into my chest like a corkscrew and gently removed my still-beating heart like a loving surgeon.

I like both. Am I allowed to like both? I feel like I should be allowed to like both. I feel like there's this trap that games and gamers keep falling into, where we work way too hard trying to convince people (invariably crusty old farts whose opinions don't matter) that games are True Art, and you know it's Art because it moves slowly and there's a child within line of sight. And then maybe we go too far in the other direction, and try to make it Shocking and Gritty, and then we get turd-sandwiches like Hatred.

I mean...games are meant to be fun. That's their prime directive. They can also tell a gripping and moving character drama about a Guy and a Girl and maybe there is a Child, and the Girl probably dies, and woop-woop-woop single parenthood metaphor, but firstly they need to be fun. Maybe this game is super fun. Haven't played it! But it doesn't look like the same kind of fun as previous God of War games, and that makes me apprehensive.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I mean...games are meant to be fun. That's their prime directive. They can also tell a gripping and moving character drama about a Guy and a Girl and maybe there is a Child, and the Girl probably dies, and woop-woop-woop single parenthood metaphor, but firstly they need to be fun. Maybe this game is super fun. Haven't played it! But it doesn't look like the same kind of fun as previous God of War games, and that makes me apprehensive.

I find that whenever the phrase 'games are supposed to be fun' is used there seems to be only one definition of the word 'fun'; The Nintendo fun. Or at least the only one that's allowed in the world of gaming by the more hardcore crowd. As if putting a greater focus on any other aspect of a game cannot be considered "fun". I didn't exactly have fun in the traditional sense of the word with games like Silent Hill 2 or Resident Evil, yet I still found them thoroughly engaging and memorable.

 

[happyninja42]

I do not understand the rabid devotion to a particular game mechanic. "They changed the playstyle so now it sucks!" Just makes no sense to me. Frankly, I found the combat system for the GoW system a little tiring by the 3rd game that played exactly the same. They didn't deviate at all, which made for some rather cut and paste combat. There isn't anything different in them, game mechanics wise.

They all followed the same stupid pattern too. Kratos gets curbed stomped at the start of the game, sent to Hades, loses his Blades of *Insert name for this game because they can't let him have the same ones again*, and then has to wall climb his way out of hell, fighting grabby rape hands along the way. Then he goes around, collecting red orbs over and over to relevel up his blades, as well as pick up new weapons, all the while killing everything in front of him. I'm sorry but there just isn't anything all that amazing about that game style, especially when it's just wash/rinse/repeat from the last game.

Some have said that this game is slow, based on a fucking trailer. To assume that the entire game will be slow like this, simply because it starts out slow is ludicrous. It's a tutorial, sometimes they are slow paced, sometimes they aren't. It was also a trailer, those frequently feel different from the actual game. Besides, at the end of it, Kratos says "now you are ready", implying that things will get much more intense from that point on.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

I find that whenever the phrase 'games are supposed to be fun' is used there seems to be only one definition of the word 'fun'; The Nintendo fun. Or at least the only one that's allowed in the world of gaming by the more hardcore crowd. As if putting a greater focus on any other aspect of a game cannot be considered "fun". I didn't exactly have fun in the traditional sense of the word with games like Silent Hill 2 or Resident Evil, yet I still found them thoroughly engaging and memorable.

Well, maybe that's the point. It's a different flavour of fun to what people think of when you say "God of War." So people buying this game expecting - as one would - something God of War-flavoured might instead get...whatever the hell flavour this is. A cocktail of one part Skyrim to two parts The Last of Us, with a twist of family drama thrown in for pathos?

I mean, some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla, but no-one likes asking for chocolate and getting vanilla. Or vice versa. It's a poor branding decision, I think is what I'm trying to say. (In my defence, I am super tired right now.)

 

[McElroy]

Stupid American game devs. REAL gamers don't give a shit about some whiny story. Just give us ham and violence. The "actually looks like a script and not a game script" -scripts are for mainstream fools and girls. I'm not being sarcastic, but I also acknowledge taste is subjective even if it sucks.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I find that whenever the phrase 'games are supposed to be fun' is used there seems to be only one definition of the word 'fun'; The Nintendo fun. Or at least the only one that's allowed in the world of gaming by the more hardcore crowd. As if putting a greater focus on any other aspect of a game cannot be considered "fun". I didn't exactly have fun in the traditional sense of the word with games like Silent Hill 2 or Resident Evil, yet I still found them thoroughly engaging and memorable.

Well, maybe that's the point. It's a different flavour of fun to what people think of when you say "God of War." So people buying this game expecting - as one would - something God of War-flavoured might instead get...whatever the hell flavour this is. A cocktail of one part Skyrim to two parts The Last of Us, with a twist of family drama thrown in for pathos?

I mean, some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla, but no-one likes asking for chocolate and getting vanilla. Or vice versa. It's a poor branding decision, I think is what I'm trying to say. (In my defence, I am super tired right now.)

But there's already 4 (6 if you count the PSP) versions of God of War with the same brawling action. That's 6 servings of nothing but chocolate, with now one serving of vanilla.

Look, I would understand if this franchise was still fresh and celebrated, but it's not. It was old and tired. Gameplay and setting had become stale, and Kratos wasn't exactly remembered foundly even as a villainous character. The one thing that this franchise could've strived for in terms of something fresh and new was making Kratos actually engaging as a character, and having him rise above his one-dimensional rage persona. And that's what this new game seems to be aiming for. Whether it succeeds or not is another question (this is the God of War development team after all).

You can say it's not God of War anymore, but besides the change in camera and the lack of chainblades it still is. You're still a lone warrior fighting monsters in an ancient, savage land. Even with Kratos being much more reserved he still feels like Kratos, just not the Kratos who's constantly roaring and shoving his fists through someone's throat.

This franchise has had it's rage boner for so long now that nobody took it serious or even respected it much anymore. So I'm glad that this inevitable sequel went for something different. And no, it's not an original change, but for this franchise it feels like a breath of fresh air.

The only thing I'll criticize it for at this point is them seemingly giving it the bog standard, soft reboot God of War title, instead of God of War 4 or God of War: Valhalla or something.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Some have said that this game is slow, based on a fucking trailer. To assume that the entire game will be slow like this, simply because it starts out slow is ludicrous. It's a tutorial, sometimes they are slow paced, sometimes they aren't. It was also a trailer, those frequently feel different from the actual game. Besides, at the end of it, Kratos says "now you are ready", implying that things will get much more intense from that point on.

I don't know if you noticed, but there's actually a bunch of hidden creatures in the gameplay trailer that are very easily missed. Did you spot the ghost, or the valkyrie (?), or the giant fucking snake?

 

[happyninja42]

Some have said that this game is slow, based on a fucking trailer. To assume that the entire game will be slow like this, simply because it starts out slow is ludicrous. It's a tutorial, sometimes they are slow paced, sometimes they aren't. It was also a trailer, those frequently feel different from the actual game. Besides, at the end of it, Kratos says "now you are ready", implying that things will get much more intense from that point on.

I don't know if you noticed, but there's actually a bunch of hidden creatures in the gameplay trailer that are very easily missed. Did you spot the ghost, or the valkyrie (?), or the giant fucking snake?

No I didn't notice them, because I was mostly focusing on the little boy and Kratos, as I am more interested in their interplay and the developing story they are trying to tell with this game. If by "giant fucking snake" you mean the dragon that flies in at the end? Yes I saw that, but that was at the resolution of the trailer, and not in the actual trailer combat itself. It was a closing dramatic piece. If you mean some other giant fucking snake, no I didn't see it. I also didn't see a ghost or valkyrie, at least not an actual person. Are you talking about artwork or something? I don't recall the tutorial camera focus ever locking onto either of those things.

But what is your point? I'm not sure what your comment has to do with the part of my comment you quoted?

 

[Casual Shinji]

I don't know if you noticed, but there's actually a bunch of hidden creatures in the gameplay trailer that are very easily missed. Did you spot the ghost, or the valkyrie (?), or the giant fucking snake?

No I didn't notice them, because I was mostly focusing on the little boy and Kratos, as I am more interested in their interplay and the developing story they are trying to tell with this game. If by "giant fucking snake" you mean the dragon that flies in at the end? Yes I saw that, but that was at the resolution of the trailer, and not in the actual trailer combat itself. It was a closing dramatic piece. If you mean some other giant fucking snake, no I didn't see it. I also didn't see a ghost or valkyrie, at least not an actual person. Are you talking about artwork or something? I don't recall the tutorial camera focus ever locking onto either of those things.

But what is your point? I'm not sure what your comment has to do with the part of my comment you quoted?

No criticism, just figured I'd point out some cool little secrets that are hidden in what appears to be just a regular onstage demo/tutorial level. It's just neat Santa Monica Studio put this in there as a little taste of things to come.

 

[sageoftruth]

I hate to admit it, but presenting the game this way was probably the right call at least in my case.

After quitting God of War 3 at the final boss fight out of sheer boredom, I highly doubt that I would even give this game a second glance if it was "just another God of War game". Like others have said, it's foolish to make too many assumptions based off of an E3 trailer. An E3 trailer is a nothing more than a promise, and a flimsy one at that. The only thing I took away from this trailer is "things might be a bit different than before", and that actually made me a bit curious, and stoked this entire discussion by extension.

The fact that I'll be checking reviews later to see if it's actually worth playing probably makes this choice a victory on their part.

 

[Danbo Jambo]

The more I watch the trailer, the more I dislike the look of it and the more I agree with the video rant's points.

It's baffling why they've decided to shift the tone of the franchize from pure MDK, rage-fuelled slaughter, to one of heart-felt bonding and emotion.

And with every watch the combat just looks more and moer cumbersome.

That whole gameplay trailer puts me off with each watch.

 

[hermes]

I mean...games are meant to be fun. That's their prime directive. They can also tell a gripping and moving character drama about a Guy and a Girl and maybe there is a Child, and the Girl probably dies, and woop-woop-woop single parenthood metaphor, but firstly they need to be fun. Maybe this game is super fun. Haven't played it! But it doesn't look like the same kind of fun as previous God of War games, and that makes me apprehensive.

No, no no no no... no!

The idea that games can't be nothing but "fun" is what is holding them back. Toys are meant to be "fun". Videogames are meant to be enjoyable. That is the reason why we have different genres in every other single medium. A horror movie is not meant to be fun, a dramatic book is not meant to be fun, a romantic song is not meant to be fun; but depending of what you are looking for and the mood you are in, they can be enjoyable, decent escapism or even (gasp) thought provoking. But since video games started as shinny electronic toys (they even have "games" in the name), they still hold the stigma that "fun" (in the most puerile definition of the word) should be their ultimate goal.