Goddamnit Bioware

[RYjet911]

http://gza.gameriot.com/content/images/orig_320200_1_1257581825.png
You're welcome.

In my eyes, Bioware has done nothing on the story-side and character-side but copy and paste (and occasionally build on) the first KOTOR. Sorry.

I enjoyed Mass Effect, but it's "Wow, the most awesome cRPG ever" factor was completely lost on me. Enjoyable? Yes. Good? Yes. Groundbreaking? No.

You know what game was groundbreaking in the genre, in terms of story and mechanics both? The Witcher. You know what? The game hasn't sold very well.

I can just shrug at this point, because I know from several such conversations that Bioware has some of the most fanatical supporters ever. Seriously, take a 100 hardcore football fans and a 100 Bioware fans and I'm not sure which group is more zealous.

The Witcher would have been better if I didn't have to switch constantly between three different styles of fighting in order to take on unarmoured, armoured, and grouped units. There's combat depth, and then there's punishing me for not pressing the 1, 2 or 3 key every once in a while.

It's also one of the few times I've been unable to argue against a point Yahtzee has made compared to my own personal opinion, so go watch the mad old review and you'll see where I stand with The Witcher. There's a reason the game didn't sell so well, for a start being PC only is an awkward thing for a new IP, and secondly being so needlessly complex that universities have started four year courses including one year work placements in order to teach you how to play.

It's called opinion and I'm getting sick of how many people just don't realise what this word means... Posts are always made with such forcefulness, such a tone that implies "I'm right you're wrong". Such as your affermation that The Witcher is groundbreaking in story and gameplay... To me it was over the top and unnecessarily complex and I was unable to get into the story with what little I played. Mass Effect to me is an epic sci-fi adventure with awesome firefights, great characters, fantastic gameplay and superb story, while to others its an incoherent mess of plot holes (Although generally these are people who haven't read the Codex in full unlike certain nerdy peeps), focusing too hard on shooting rather than the RPG elements and bitching about characters being uninspired and boring... To each their own I s'pose. But making assertions on a forum, especially one where Bioware seems to be generally held in high regard, is just asking to be flamed.

 

[Agayek]

Wow, you can almost smell the hyperbole inducing nostalgia...

As epic story and environments go you can't get much better than the fate of the entire freaking Galaxy, with nigh on a hundred different planets per game to explore out there.

'The characters have been dull' I'm sorry? Was Tali dull? Was Legion, Thane, Wrex? Did you bother having conversations with any of these characters?

'The designs have been stagnant' ... WHAT?

I'm not completely unreasonable, I acknowledge that whether Bioware stories have deteriorated slightly over the years is a matter of opinion. But to dismiss them as complete rubbish, especially when compared to what most other game companies consider satisfactory, is ludicrous exaggeration. Also, a game (specifically an RPG) without decent gameplay is a movie, and not a particularly good movie either.

To be completely fair, while I agree with you on the characters and whatnot (for the most part), there is absolutely no possible way to argue that the story in ME2 was better than the original. It's full of plotholes, characters acting either out of character or directly against their best interests, and all sorts of shenanigans that was likely pushed through to appeal to the COD fratboy demographic.

Barring Dragon Age 2, I would say that Bioware has not yet released a "bad" game, but the quality of the stories their games tell has plummeted. Ever since the release of ME1, their stories have been getting progressively worse, and that's from a purely mechanical/technical writing perspective. Regardless of whether or not it's enjoyable, the actual measurable quality of the stories they tell (and yes, there are metrics for such things) is getting progressively worse.

As for Dragon Age 2, it's the only game Bioware has ever released to be flat out, unarguably bad. It's a lot better than many games out there, and I did play all the way through it, but everything in that game, from the mechanics to the story was, at best, bland and forgettable.

 

[Thespian]

I really enjoyed DA2, but it was very forgettable and hardly a triumph for Bioware.

Mass Effect 2 though gave more developed characters than pretty much ever before in a Bioware game. Though I do prefer the ones you spend time with being more developed, because you could shove all but two squaddies off in the corner and just grin their conversation wheels to get the same effect.

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

I think the idea of anything anyone posts here being our opinions should really go without saying.

Back on the topic of the Witcher, I'd personally argue that the combat gameplay is insanely clunky but effective in terms of establishing the world they want to establish. (At least on hard) the game essentially boils down to monsters wiping the floor with you if you don't prepare, but you having a fighting chance if you can find an equalizer or two.

The story is, IMHO, considerably better than anything I've seen from Bioware in terms of plot, theme, and storytelling. The characters are also arguably better, and certainly are established with more attention to the "less is more" rule. The choices and the twist at the end are particularly good as well.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Wow, you can almost smell the hyperbole inducing nostalgia...

As epic story and environments go you can't get much better than the fate of the entire freaking Galaxy, with nigh on a hundred different planets per game to explore out there.

'The characters have been dull' I'm sorry? Was Tali dull? Was Legion, Thane, Wrex? Did you bother having conversations with any of these characters?

'The designs have been stagnant' ... WHAT?

I'm not completely unreasonable, I acknowledge that whether Bioware stories have deteriorated slightly over the years is a matter of opinion. But to dismiss them as complete rubbish, especially when compared to what most other game companies consider satisfactory, is ludicrous exaggeration. Also, a game (specifically an RPG) without decent gameplay is a movie, and not a particularly good movie either.

To be completely fair, while I agree with you on the characters and whatnot (for the most part), there is absolutely no possible way to argue that the story in ME2 was better than the original. It's full of plotholes, characters acting either out of character or directly against their best interests, and all sorts of shenanigans that was likely pushed through to appeal to the COD fratboy demographic.

Barring Dragon Age 2, I would say that Bioware has not yet released a "bad" game, but the quality of the stories their games tell has plummeted. Ever since the release of ME1, their stories have been getting progressively worse, and that's from a purely mechanical/technical writing perspective. Regardless of whether or not it's enjoyable, the actual measurable quality of the stories they tell (and yes, there are metrics for such things) is getting progressively worse.

As for Dragon Age 2, it's the only game Bioware has ever released to be flat out, unarguably bad. It's a lot better than many games out there, and I did play all the way through it, but everything in that game, from the mechanics to the story was, at best, bland and forgettable.

Well, the story in Mass Effect 2 was never going to be as good as Mass Effect 1, it is the 'middle child' after all, but I'm confident Mass Effect 3 will deliver.

I was never saying that Bioware's more recent titles have better stories than their older ones (for one thing I wouldn't know since I never played any of the older ones). What I was saying is that whether or not you think they are AS GOOD as they used to be, that fact is, they are still GOOD, and most certainly miles better than the average standard of most games. I really don't get the argument that they've been dumbed down for the 'CoD fratboy' demographic. For one thing, I'm a fan of CoD, and an even bigger fan of Halo, but why does that mean I can't enjoy and respect more complicated games? My top 3 gaming franchises are Halo, Mass Effect, and Assassins Creed. Three completely different styles of games, so it does annoy me when people get pigeonholed into 'CoD fans' or 'RPG fans', because in my experience that's rarely how it works. Most of my more 'dumb FPS' orientated friends hate Mass Effect 2, whereas it's biggest fans tend to be the hardcore nerds that I know.

I'm not aiming this at you personally, but it seems to me whenever I hear the 'dumbed down for the FPS tards' argument the people making it rarely offer any real life proof for their statement.

 

[GodEmperor47]

Here's a ground-breaking, insane idea: if you hate the company so much, go tell them on THEIR forums in a constructice, well-written post, and stop buying their games. Complaining here is like saying, "Man I really hate this one politician, let me ***** to ALL MY FRIENDS about him but NEVER SEND HIM A LETTER." Your ineffectual whining just serves to make you look less intelligent and slightly annoy the community (oh, and rouse the ever-present "OMG I HATE X AND Y" bandwagon kids).

For the record, I enjoyed both Mass Effect games, and I liked 2 better (it was all the good from ME1 with none of the bad in my opinion, no loot sorting, no running endlessly around open levels that felt too big and full of empty space and enemies to get in my way). I loved Dragon Age Origins, and even shelled out for the Ultimate Edition to get all the DLC when it dropped in price so I could have one last playthrough from the start through Awakening. I enjoyed Dragon Age 2, though I felt it was lazily done in terms of environments and that eventually started grating on me in Act 3.

I don't understand why people hate Bioware. They make good games that many, many people enjoy. If they didn't make the game "perfectly" or you happened to dislike it, that doesn't make them Satan or horrible or anything else, it just means you should spend your money elsewhere.

 

[AnAngryMoose]

I agree with the OP.

*FlameShield: ON*

I see your FlameShield and raise you one Hadouken(!).

OT: I disagree with the OP. While I am disappointed to hear how ME3 seems to be going and how ME2 went I still loved ME2 and will probably love ME3. I think that the characters are very well fleshed out and all feel quite diverse. Like I've always maintained, BioWare know how to create settings and characters and the settings of Mass Effect and Dragon Age (to a lesser extent) are interesting.

Sure, DA may be very Tolkien-esque, but it has a few nice twists to it such as blood magic or the Circle of Magi and the intricacies of the Darkspawn.

And don't get me started on ME. Outstanding world-building. They all feel very vibrant, particularly walking through the market on Ilos. Also, it has some moments that feel damn, epic. Just think of the build-up to the final boss on the Collector's ship or even Arrival. That was pretty action-packed. Sure, there may be less RPG elements, but the action is damn good.

 

[Frotality]

i realize now how bioware has made its fortune on retelling the same story and characters with different hats. the original stories and characters are the ones that hold up, but their recent attempts to change that story and characters show just how bad they are at it; theyre not bad writers, but look at ME2; it has great individual stories within it, but they have little connectivity and the overall plot is more befitting of a spin off. i enjoyed DAO mostly because unoriginal or not it was bioware writing what they do best; a group of bioware archetypes out to save the world. DA2 tried to pull away from everything bioware was good at, and the result was a bunch of bland, mostly unlikeable characters in a story without the slightest semblance of focus.

the quality has slowly declined throughout the years, but now that bioware is caught up with this plague of "everything more than a week old is nostalgic crap and your an idiot for liking it" infecting modern society and gamers especially, i dont see their stories doing anything but getting worse.

 

[Agayek]

Well, the story in Mass Effect 2 was never going to be as good as Mass Effect 1, it is the 'middle child' after all, but I'm confident Mass Effect 3 will deliver.

I was never saying that Bioware's more recent titles have better stories than their older ones (for one thing I wouldn't know since I never played any of the older ones). What I was saying is that whether or not you think they are AS GOOD as they used to be, that fact is, they are still GOOD, and most certainly miles better than the average standard of most games. I really don't get the argument that they've been dumbed down for the 'CoD fratboy' demographic. For one thing, I'm a fan of CoD, and an even bigger fan of Halo, but why does that mean I can't enjoy and respect more complicated games? My top 3 gaming franchises are Halo, Mass Effect, and Assassins Creed. Three completely different styles of games, so it does annoy me when people get pigeonholed into 'CoD fans' or 'RPG fans', because in my experience that's rarely how it works. Most of my more 'dumb FPS' orientated friends hate Mass Effect 2, whereas it's biggest fans tend to be the hardcore nerds that I know.

I'm not aiming this at you personally, but it seems to me whenever I hear the 'dumbed down for the FPS tards' argument the people making it rarely offer any real life proof for their statement.

I'd agree with you, for the most part, about Bioware's stories still being "good", insofar as "good" being "above average". A lot of the rage about it though is that Bioware made a name for themselves by having "beyond exceptional" stories. Ever since KOTOR though, they've been getting progressively worse, and it's disappointing for people who've played through their games, more or less in order.

Also, the whole CoD thing isn't a knock on people who play/enjoy CoD. It's a knock on the stereotypical image that most people (and publishers especially) have of the primary audience. Specifically, this:

Basically, the general consensus is that the most popular games are that way because they appeal to the lowest common denominator (aka, that 80% of humanity with the IQ of cheese), hence the general stereotype that fans of aforementioned most popular games being stupid.

And finally, it's rare that the games that inspire rage actually are "dumbed down" to the point where they would actually appeal to the mass market. I, personally, take issue with it because it's a dumb idea from the get go. Instead of picking a target audience and going for that, they try to appeal to everyone, and that generally ends with an inferior product.

 

[Agayek]

Sure, there may be less RPG elements, but the action is damn good.

Now if only there was a competent story to go with that action .

ME2 was awesome on each of the individual loyalty missions and whatnot, but the main storyline just didn't make any sense, and it really threw off the "epic climax" vibe for the Collector base and all that. I kept being nagged at by all the plot-stupidity that popped up in that last 10 minutes.

 

[Tsaba]

HAHAHAHA, I continue to laugh at how people went from

"OMG Bioware iz best RPG maker in world!! Have my babies Bioware!" up until the minute before Dragon Age 2 launched,

to "OMG, Bioware is disgusting filthy, worthless shit that hasn't released a good game in 7 years!!! Must make Hate thread!" 2 hours after it launched.

Oh internet, you crowd of fickle-minded hypocritical fuck-tards, you....X3

It's always been there.... always.

Seriously though, obviously I missed something because I thought:

Are some of the best characters that bioware have come up with to date... and I will disagree with the elves from DA2. I think they look better as "James Cameron" Elves... much better.

Spoiler: Seriously

This

looks way better than this

 

[Thamian]

Ok...

I will stick my hand up and admit I never played Baldur's gate, or indeed anything pre-KOTOR.

I will also stick my hand up and admit, I love me some Mass Effect. Here's why:

The game world is rich, detailed and plausible, the characters are for the most part well fleshed out and believable, and the story it's telling makes sense in context. Furthermore, it's one of the few games/game series I've played that has been so effortlessly immersive that I found myself seriously emotionally invested in both the mission and the characters.

For example, in my first playthrough of ME2, I not only found myself actively rebelling against the fact that the game didn't allow for you to take Jacob's advice and throw legion out an airlock because I did not want a geth on my ship, but also knew from the get go that I could not trust cerberus and that I was sooner or later going to have to put a bolt through Miranda's skull.

On top of this, the gameplay is uniformly solid at very least, even the damn ship has an emotional investment in it (yes I was grinning like an idiot and didn't even care during the Normandy reborn sequence) and it's very nice to have a space opera which actually has plausible inter-species politics going on.

I'll admit, it's not with out it's flaws, some of them diabolical (Yes, Mark Meer, I am looking at your VO work), but they are still damned good games.

Also, why not improve the gameplay side of things? Yes, EA maybe pushing BioWare too far, but well... It's a game. A game is meant to be played.

P.S. Having written all that I finally noticed OP's handle. Damn you troll. But well played.

 

[Snotnarok]

Mass Effect had very well done characters in my mind. If you can name a game that has anything as big and as in depth as Mass Effect, I'd be surprised.

Then again people will complain about any game they get the chance to. It's never big enough, never looks good enough, focuses on the multi/single player too much, doesn't have enough weapons or scopes.

 

[Inkidu]

I don't give a flying fuck about what they've done with the inventory or the combat. I couldn't care less how "streamlined" they want to make it.
The reason I've no interest in getting Mass Effect 3 is that the last two games they've released have dissappointed me story-wise. Their characters have been dull. The designs have been stagnant.
Bioware is a company renowned for the character of its games, for all those elements that make an atmosphere. That is what made those games great. People still talk about the original Baldur's Gate games, and it has little to nothing to do with the gameplay. People still talk about those games because of the world, because of your interaction with it. Because you can steal a man's golden pantaloons in Baldur's Gate 1 and combine it with two different pairs of Pantaloons (bronze and silver respectively) in Baldur's Gate 2 to create one of the best armors in the game. It's an oddity you're rewarded for sticking with. You can invest in characters and develop romances that trigger based on the time you spend with one another, not how far in the plot you are. Every town has a story, has a life.
Bioware's focus on gameplay over story have seen their products suffer where they matter and have always mattered the most.


Also, fuck those James Cameron elves in DA2. Seriously. Fuck those pointy, plate-faced fluff sniffers. I doubt they could have fucked up Elf design any more than they did.

All opinions and unique to yourself. No support for them. Plus, your screen name is Trolldor. I don't like to call people trolls because that dehumanizes them, so you're just an angry unsavory fellow. If you didn't like the series you shouldn't have bought it.

 

[Aisaku]

Erm... I do agree that flavor, immersion and storytelling are Bioware's strengths. All the hallmarks you mention in past games are present in ME, just tailored for today's gaming mindset and technology. Of course they're not as flexible as before as generating more content (more armor designs for instance) is not as cheap as it was back then.

That said, I agree with the spirit of your post. I do not care one bit about shooting at stuff! Give me story, give me characters, give me decisions that matter!

Although, all this posturing could be to bait the non fans into getting the game... which is not just distasteful, but a tad worrying. Is this something EA's pushing for?

 

[Cbargs]

Here's a ground-breaking, insane idea: if you hate the company so much, go tell them on THEIR forums in a constructice, well-written post, and stop buying their games.

I'm not sure if you are joking with him or just unaware, but complaining on the Bioware forums about a Bioware game is a bannable offense; see Dragon Age 2, when customers had their games shut off because they vocally complained about the quality on the Bioware forums.

As for the OP, I somewhat agree. Bioware's characters can tend to be very one-dimensional and quirky(Mordin, Jack, Thane) and most attempts at deeper, more realistic characters are generally seen as failures(Ashley, Jacob). I do believe that the main story for Mass Effect 2 was a bit lacking, but that comes more from the fact that it is the second act to the story. However, the loyalty missions, in my opinion, made up for the lackluster main story line.

 

[Lord_Kristof]

snip

Well, two things. First, I'm just stating my opinion. I know it can sound somewhat forced, especially since it's the internet and you kind of expect people to behave this way. But I'm no troll, and I always thought that forums are there to share your opinions with people. Believe me when I tell you, everything I say is my personal opinion and I don't think I know something for a fact.

Also, it saddens me that, in that light, you're saying that stating my opinion in a forum which, as you said, tends to be biased in one direction or the other is "asking to be flamed." Going on a Bioware forum and saying "Oh my god, your games suck!" is asking for a flame war. Going on a KKK website and saying "Why you hatin, haters?" is asking for a flame war. Hell, if I went on this website and said "Russ Pitts is *enter something nasty here*", THAT would be asking for a flame war. I don't see how trying to discuss something by adding your five cents to the thread is asking for a flame war. If I get attacked by rabid fans, that only kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Why do I feel sorry each time I voice my opinion on a topic, which may be different from the common opinion? It's like it defeats the purpose of even having a forum...

 

[Hristo Tzonkov]

I still like their games.Baldurs Gate if anything had some rather fucked up characters and interactions.What's wrong with getting refinement in your general gameplay while trying to keep a level in your other aspects rather than trying to fill a niche?I mean just review half of the articles of this weeks issue.People are still gonna play these games they're just gonna act betrayed.There's those 1-2 cases of stubborn mules but that's pretty much all.

 

[Ben Legend]

I'm not saying your opinion is wrong. But I really don't see how people can dislike the games. They are brilliant in so many ways. Not perfect, but still brilliant.

 

[Laser Priest]

Finally someone else who feels the same way I do about Bioware's most recent ventures. I remain silent however as I do not wish to be lynched by the community.

No. No, you really don't.

And cool opinion you got there. One of my favourites.