Goddamnit Bioware

[Taldeer]

OP, I sympathize. Doesn't mean I agree with your opinion on the newer BioWare games (although Dragon Age was a big let-down for me), I'm just saying I miss some of the old-school RPGs I grew up with. There was a different mentality and philosophy behind those games. I think, bottom line, they were driven a bit less by profit and a bit more by passion. I'm talking about Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, heck, even Vampire The Masqueade: Bloodlines, although it's a lot more recent and it was the swan song of Troika. We're yearning for an age where games were not as prone to become franchises and follow certain formulas. I'm on gog.com and that's good enough for me.

But I'm not bitching about the new stuff, so keep your gorramn flames to yourselves, please. I love the Mass Effect series. I'll still love it even if the third installment disappoints, which, at this point, for me, there's a 50-50 chance it might. It's one of those series which I'll remember 10-20 years later, just like I remember Heroes of Might and Magic, in spite of everything.

 

[ScoopMeister]

Finally someone else who feels the same way I do about Bioware's most recent ventures. I remain silent however as I do not wish to be lynched by the community.

Is this a joke? You really had to look that hard to find others who don't like Bioware's recent ventures? It's not like there isn't a whole army of DA2 haters out there. I'm sick of all these haters. Yeah, I get it, you don't like the games. Move on now.

 

[AlternatePFG]

While I love Baldur's Gate I/II and KOTOR, every other BioWare game has not been as good for me as far as RPG's go. I mean sure, I thought ME2 was a great game but as an RPG it was severely lacking. I thought Dragon Age played too much like an MMO for me tastes (I liked it enough to play through it like 5 times though. :V).

My problem is that BioWare's story keeps on getting praised, when I have no idea why. Mass Effect 2's main plotline was a mess of plotholes, inconsitances and railroading. Dragon Age 2 had an interesting thing going but it was a muddled mess. ME1 and DA1 were rehashes of older BioWare plots and characters (which is thankfully something they have fixed). I did like the story in Mass Effect 1 though, while entirely cliche it was very well presented and had a good atmosphere to it that ME2 lacked.

They're great at making characters though, and I do admit some of the loyalty missions for Mass Effect 2 were extremely well written (Mordin's and Legions for example).

 

[Haelium]

I don't think this is just a Bioware problem. It's this generation of games IMO, there's too much focus on graphics, voice acting, etc. and not enough on options(I mean gameplay wise, not storywise, luckily this is still there.)

I think the reason is perhaps that games have become big money now, meaning that developers are less likely to try something new, because theres big money at stake.

And at the risk of stirring up shit, consoles are a problem. Face it, RPGs are better on PC, but PC gaming is dying(Anyone who feels like arguing, go to your local video game store and see if they have as many PC games on shelves as they did 4 years ago). Seeing as developers are almost all focusing on consoles now, they are changing the games to suit console controls and console gamers.

Again, just my opinion, so you can't flame me for it.

 

[Zaik]

I heard from a guy who heard from a guy who is friends with a guy who is the cousin of a guy at bioware that this is how they feel about it.

 

[MetallicaRulez0]

Gameplay is the most important aspect of any game to me, even an RPG. I don't really give a shit how amazing your story is if it's a chore to get through the actual gameplay sections of your game. See: Fallout 3, DA:O.

/Flame Shield Activate

 

[Talon_Skywarp]

While reading this I imagined 'Nothing Sacred' By Meatloaf playing in the background.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Well, the story in Mass Effect 2 was never going to be as good as Mass Effect 1, it is the 'middle child' after all, but I'm confident Mass Effect 3 will deliver.

I was never saying that Bioware's more recent titles have better stories than their older ones (for one thing I wouldn't know since I never played any of the older ones). What I was saying is that whether or not you think they are AS GOOD as they used to be, that fact is, they are still GOOD, and most certainly miles better than the average standard of most games. I really don't get the argument that they've been dumbed down for the 'CoD fratboy' demographic. For one thing, I'm a fan of CoD, and an even bigger fan of Halo, but why does that mean I can't enjoy and respect more complicated games? My top 3 gaming franchises are Halo, Mass Effect, and Assassins Creed. Three completely different styles of games, so it does annoy me when people get pigeonholed into 'CoD fans' or 'RPG fans', because in my experience that's rarely how it works. Most of my more 'dumb FPS' orientated friends hate Mass Effect 2, whereas it's biggest fans tend to be the hardcore nerds that I know.

I'm not aiming this at you personally, but it seems to me whenever I hear the 'dumbed down for the FPS tards' argument the people making it rarely offer any real life proof for their statement.

I'd agree with you, for the most part, about Bioware's stories still being "good", insofar as "good" being "above average". A lot of the rage about it though is that Bioware made a name for themselves by having "beyond exceptional" stories. Ever since KOTOR though, they've been getting progressively worse, and it's disappointing for people who've played through their games, more or less in order.

Also, the whole CoD thing isn't a knock on people who play/enjoy CoD. It's a knock on the stereotypical image that most people (and publishers especially) have of the primary audience. Specifically, this:

Basically, the general consensus is that the most popular games are that way because they appeal to the lowest common denominator (aka, that 80% of humanity with the IQ of cheese), hence the general stereotype that fans of aforementioned most popular games being stupid.

And finally, it's rare that the games that inspire rage actually are "dumbed down" to the point where they would actually appeal to the mass market. I, personally, take issue with it because it's a dumb idea from the get go. Instead of picking a target audience and going for that, they try to appeal to everyone, and that generally ends with an inferior product.

See, the thing is though, I'm not sure they did do that. The story of ME2 was less interesting than ME1 primarily because ME1 introduces you to the trilogy, and ME2 just builds on that. However, while the story itself may have been less interesting, the presentation and the way the plot developments were delivered were as good as ever. For example, the Collectors building a Human Reaper in retrospect is nowhere near as interesting or surprising as when you first find out about the nature of the Reapers from Sovereign and Virgil in ME1, but the way ME2 presented it's story still managed to make me literally smack my gob when I first saw it.

and of course I know that douchebags exist, and that a lot of them are FPS fans, I just don't see the evidence that Bioware now aims its games any more at that market than it ever did, because in my experience, for every 1 RPG fan you could show me who is pissed at Bioware right now and every 1 douchebag who likes them; I wager money I could show you 10 RPG fans who still love them and 10 douchebags who hate them/don't even know they exist.

This might sound a little self indulgent but I like to think that Bioware has been aiming recent games at people like me, who like games from many different genres and believe that crossovers between those genres can work; and all in all, barring a few minor things, I reckon that payed off with Mass Effect 2.

 

[Agayek]

See, the thing is though, I'm not sure they did do that. The story of ME2 was less interesting than ME1 primarily because ME1 introduces you to the trilogy, and ME2 just builds on that. However, while the story itself may have been less interesting, the presentation and the way the plot developments were delivered were as good as ever. For example, the Collectors building a Human Reaper in retrospect is nowhere near as interesting or surprising as when you first find out about the nature of the Reapers from Sovereign and Virgil in ME1, but the way ME2 presented it's story still managed to make me literally smack my gob when I first saw it.

Except I'm not basing my judgement off of how interesting the plot is. The fact of the matter is, the story in ME2 is demonstrably, provably inferior to ME1. There are several instances where established characterization is completely abandoned, individuals/groups act directly counter to their own goals, and there are several plot holes that simply don't make any sense. That's the argument I'm trying to make. Not that their stories are any less interesting, because really they're not. Their stories are just becoming of increasingly lower quality.

and of course I know that douchebags exist, and that a lot of them are FPS fans, I just don't see the evidence that Bioware now aims its games any more at that market than it ever did, because in my experience, for every 1 RPG fan you could show me who is pissed at Bioware right now and every 1 douchebag who likes them; I wager money I could show you 10 RPG fans who still love them and 10 douchebags who hate them/don't even know they exist.

This might sound a little self indulgent but I like to think that Bioware has been aiming recent games at people like me, who like games from many different genres and believe that crossovers between those genres can work; and all in all, barring a few minor things, I reckon that payed off with Mass Effect 2.

That's pretty close to what I was trying to say. Bioware is changing their games to better attract the "mass market", yet their games are not terribly appealing to that demographic. They are demonstrably diluting the biggest strengths of their games for failed attempts at attracting new customers.

It's a rather silly move, all things considered.

 

[deathbydeath]

Ever since KOTOR, Bioware has delivered me nothing but casual crap. Go screw yourselves Bioware I will be your ***** no longer. You just lost yourself a customer.

i actually thought jade empire had a better main plot than kotor, but i got to the end of both and quit, cause those endings are so frustratingly unfair.

op: some of the squad members in me2 were absolutely phenomenal, but some were simply disappointingly unfulfilled, with the main plot completely bollocks. to me, me1 was average story-wise.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Finally someone else who feels the same way I do about Bioware's most recent ventures. I remain silent however as I do not wish to be lynched by the community.

No. No, you really don't.

And cool opinion you got there. One of my favourites.

I swear, from all the gushing I hear about Bioware on these forums I rarely see negative threads. I saw the Draon Age 2 hate, who couldn't have. But generally Bioware themselves are never directly dirtied are they?

Is this a joke? You really had to look that hard to find others who don't like Bioware's recent ventures? It's not like there isn't a whole army of DA2 haters out there. I'm sick of all these haters. Yeah, I get it, you don't like the games. Move on now.

No joke. Maybe it's because I generally avoid Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2 threads...

 

[Laser Priest]

Finally someone else who feels the same way I do about Bioware's most recent ventures. I remain silent however as I do not wish to be lynched by the community.

No. No, you really don't.

And cool opinion you got there. One of my favourites.

I swear, from all the gushing I hear about Bioware on these forums I rarely see negative threads. I saw the Draon Age 2 hate, who couldn't have. But generally Bioware themselves are never directly dirtied are they?

The vast majority of what I read here is BioWare hate or hate for their games.

I'm utterly convinced that the only people who like them here are the quiet ones.

 

[SageRuffin]

Jesus, BioWare has a few slip ups and everyone's ready to cry foul at them "betraying their fans" and falling off the deep end. BioWare hasn't had any where near as many fuck-ups as, say, Square Enix.

So everyone chill out. Overall, if you don't like it, move on. No need to spoil shit for the rest of us.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

The vast majority of what I read here is BioWare hate or hate for their games.

I'm utterly convinced that the only people who like them here are the quiet ones.

Really? Damn I need to start looking at more threads... all I ever hear is how great the story and the characters are. I might have gone somewhere over the rainbow.

 

[geizr]

The entitled nerd-rage is strong with this one.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

How dare that game company keep making games that make it money. How dare it not listen to the prattling of nostalgic, self-entitled fans with no idea how hard it is to make a game.

I thought DA:2 sales have been pretty mediocre for a sequel so far.

It was all the problems Mass Effect 2 had compounded with some seriously retarded Art Design that took Dragon Age away from 'high fantasy' and in to 'final fantasy' complete with fan service.

Ah yes ''pants'' Isabella has dismissed that claim.

I actually think the way she was dressed was part of the joke especially since she leaves Ander's clinic talking about STD's. She wasn't exactly a good girl in DA:O as far as I remeber. I think you could sleep with her to get the duelist skill?

I thought DA:2 was a pretty mediocre to poor game but I thought the characters were okay for the most part.

 

[Belgariontheking1]

I don't give a flying fuck about what they've done with the inventory or the combat. I couldn't care less how "streamlined" they want to make it.
The reason I've no interest in getting Mass Effect 3 is that the last two games they've released have dissappointed me story-wise. Their characters have been dull. The designs have been stagnant.
Bioware is a company renowned for the character of its games, for all those elements that make an atmosphere. That is what made those games great. People still talk about the original Baldur's Gate games, and it has little to nothing to do with the gameplay. People still talk about those games because of the world, because of your interaction with it. Because you can steal a man's golden pantaloons in Baldur's Gate 1 and combine it with two different pairs of Pantaloons (bronze and silver respectively) in Baldur's Gate 2 to create one of the best armors in the game. It's an oddity you're rewarded for sticking with. You can invest in characters and develop romances that trigger based on the time you spend with one another, not how far in the plot you are. Every town has a story, has a life.
Bioware's focus on gameplay over story have seen their products suffer where they matter and have always mattered the most.


Also, fuck those James Cameron elves in DA2. Seriously. Fuck those pointy, plate-faced fluff sniffers. I doubt they could have fucked up Elf design any more than they did.

Here, for the enjoyment of everyone else who doesn't feel like reading this.
"Whine Whine Whine. ***** ***** *****. Whine whine ***** whine."

 

[Digitaldreamer7]

Like the mass effect series, hate the Dragon Age series. Played the demo for DA2 and it was CRAP. I hope ME3 doesn't play like that. I'll still buy it and play it for the story, but, it's going to take a lot more time for me to finish if it plays like shit.