Have you ever supported/sympathised with a games villain/enemy?
- Thread starter Baradiel
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Actually yes. The entirety of the Dragon gods in Chrono Cross.
You can say they are quite justified for their actions; I'd almost go so far to say that if not for self-preservation, YOU could be considered the villain.
Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss both have excellent villains who genuinely believe what they are doing is right/correct, even though their methods are ultimately going to end in disaster (of course, you don't know if your own methods are any better, which is what makes these stories that much better).
Because technically, they're in the right.
Their entire civilization was displaced while their timeline (and corresponding existence) was destroyed because of the Time Crash; caused by the experiments at Chronopolis. When they go to war, they're defeated by Chronopolis's FATE system and then forced to live as effective outsiders in the El Nido Archipelago. After some time, the regular Dragonians on El Nido went extinct, leaving only the Dragon gods.
Imagine if you watched every one of your family, friends and children be ruthlessly murdered, only to die out entirely.
It makes the entire trek up Terra Tower that much more creepy when you realize that you are effectively going up to put an end to the last vestige of their existence, and they didn't do a damn thing to deserve it.
Their entire civilization was displaced while their timeline (and corresponding existence) was destroyed because of the Time Crash; caused by the experiments at Chronopolis. When they go to war, they're defeated by Chronopolis's FATE system and then forced to live as effective outsiders in the El Nido Archipelago. After some time, the regular Dragonians on El Nido went extinct, leaving only the Dragon gods.
Imagine if you watched every one of your family, friends and children be ruthlessly murdered, only to die out entirely.
It makes the entire trek up Terra Tower that much more creepy when you realize that you are effectively going up to put an end to the last vestige of their existence, and they didn't do a damn thing to deserve it.
You can say they are quite justified for their actions; I'd almost go so far to say that if not for self-preservation, YOU could be considered the villain.
Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss both have excellent villains who genuinely believe what they are doing is right/correct, even though their methods are ultimately going to end in disaster (of course, you don't know if your own methods are any better, which is what makes these stories that much better).
Hmmm, I made a thread discussing that some time ago. Have a read [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.250194-Are-you-an-Assassin-or-a-Templar]. Some great arguments were brought in.Baradiel said:
OT: Saren from Mass Effect 1. Also the Reapers from the whole saga, if it ends the way i hope it will end.
The Reapers are just organisms, like you and I, harvesting their "crops" after 50,000 years; and if we manage to somehow disallow them from doing so.....their entire race will essentially start to die of starvation from lack of "food".
How bitchy would we be, to jeopardize the existence of a multi-million centuries old race just for our egotistical strive to persevere with our pathetic existence?
How bitchy would we be, to jeopardize the existence of a multi-million centuries old race just for our egotistical strive to persevere with our pathetic existence?
The leader of the Pitt in Fallout 3. You really felt for him when you heard his side of the story.
Followers of the Apocalypse? I don't think they destroyed anybodies life. Neither did Goodsprings (Joe Cobb doesn't count. He struck first.). FotA are a relatively major faction whilst Gs are minor. For me I divide them like this:Zorg Machine said:
Main = NCR and Legion and 'The Strip'
Major = BoS, Novac, Freeside, FotA, The Chairmen, Crimson Caravan, Fiends
Minor = GoodSprings, Black Mt, The mutie ski lodge, Bright Followers, White Glove, Omertas, Kings, Primm and of course...
The Enclave
OT: The Russians in MW2: the Spetznaz, not Ultranationalists. As far as they are concerned, an American CIA agent was involved in a major position in the execution of a terrorist operation which caused the deaths of probably two to two and a half hundered civies.
Militia in MW2. They (as their quotes prove when translated) believe TF141 to be a PMC hired by the govt to go in and murder the people who live there. They are techincally a civilian militia created to defend the favela from an invading foreign force.
Geth. Already mentioned.
NCR if I sided with the Legion. They are basically the best hope in America of recreating a nation from squabbling selfish groups of survivors (OK, OK. There is some incompetence.). Caesar then crushes it in the Mojave throughout the game and (presumably) destroys it post game. Caesar's Legion is an army of slavers.
Actually, in ME1 for me the geth were cannon fodder. But in two, when I went to that [SPOILER ALERT] station where the dormant geth lie, and I was confronted with the choice of reprogramming them or just killing them, I had to stop and think. I just left the game there for more than half an hour and leaned back, thinking the whole situation through, and starting to understand what the hell these machines actually were doing. It was an awesome moment, made me sympathize with the geth, and most importantly MADE ME THINK. So yeahVrex360 said:
Oh, I completely agree, but reading the lore from their point of view, it isnt hard to understand their actions. The Emperor may have given them orders to cease(in the case of Magnus and Lorgar) what they were doing, but the orders were delivered in condescending and impersonal ways. Magnus was dragged in front of a court consisting of his brothers and "ordniary" humans, to be judged without given a chance to defend himself. For a man who posessess a gift and knowledge that none of the people judging him do, and then have the one man who understand stay silent on the matter... It would be like timetravelling to the middle ages, and then be put to trial because you constructed a diesel engine that was interpreted as the work of the devil. It may be a dangerous thing(and indeed, warpcraft IS in a way the work of the devil...) but at the end of the day you are being persecuted by people who have no idea about the thing they are persecuting you for. When Magnus openly broke the edict, he had no other choice - og he certainly enjoyed that he could finally show how his sorcery could be used for good, but there wasnt really any other option.Ordinaryundone said:
As for Lorgar, his actions might not have been what the Emperor wanted, but the way the Emperor delivered that message was by sending the one brother Lorgar was most at odds with, and having him raze the pinnacle of Lorgars achievements, and then sending his second to tell him why. Even though he was present, and could have shown just a tad more tact, had he bothered. Hard not to take it the wrong way. As much as the Emperor was right, he wasn't very diplomatical about it.
In the end, they did wrong, very wrong, but I can understand and sympathize with the thinking that lead to their fall. The Emperor created warriors and sons, and then treated them like soldiers. He could have saved them, and while he of course had more important work, he carries part of the blame for their fall.
But whether you sympathie with them or not, well, that is a matter of oppinion of course. I do, and while I of course do not sympathize with what they BECAME, I do sympathize with what they WERE.
I can't think of any video game sympathetic antagonists that haven't already been mentioned, so I'ma go old-school tabletop on you.
Even before White Wolf started writing splat books from their point of view, I was on the Technocracy's side. Sure, the heads of the various Conventions may have had sinister world domination plots, but so did the big Tradition muckymucks. The Technocratic paradigm was just more reliable, safer, and simply better for the common public.
In a similar vein, consider the Matrix. At that point, people really are better off not knowing what's going on when the alternatives are knowing that your entire life is a shitty MMO, or living in a sweaty cardboard-eating ghetto at the planet's core. Resistance is futile, indeed.
Even before White Wolf started writing splat books from their point of view, I was on the Technocracy's side. Sure, the heads of the various Conventions may have had sinister world domination plots, but so did the big Tradition muckymucks. The Technocratic paradigm was just more reliable, safer, and simply better for the common public.
In a similar vein, consider the Matrix. At that point, people really are better off not knowing what's going on when the alternatives are knowing that your entire life is a shitty MMO, or living in a sweaty cardboard-eating ghetto at the planet's core. Resistance is futile, indeed.
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance.
It never struck me as particularly noble to take away Mewt's fantasy world by force. Mewt had lost his mother and was unpopular in reality, while the main character and his pal Ritz were fully-befamilied and popular. Of course they wanted to go back to reality, but it didn't feel right to take away the only reality that Mewt seemed to belong in, "real" or otherwise.
It never struck me as particularly noble to take away Mewt's fantasy world by force. Mewt had lost his mother and was unpopular in reality, while the main character and his pal Ritz were fully-befamilied and popular. Of course they wanted to go back to reality, but it didn't feel right to take away the only reality that Mewt seemed to belong in, "real" or otherwise.
Tales of the Abyss
Xenosaga
Now one of the biggest parts of the story of this game is that in this world, someone has used magic to be able to see far, far into the future and has recorded it for the world to follow (with the promise of prosperity), meaning most people, including the heads of government, follow the "score" religiously, some even consulting it to find out what to eat for dinner. Eventually, it ends up causing an entire nation to be destroyed, and seems to actually be predicting mass chaos and death. The villain of the story, a survivor of the destroyed nation, is trying to get around the prediction by creating a replica world (replicas aren't bound by the future of the score) despite the fact that this will destroy the original world. You are trying to see about avoiding the score through your own actions instead.
Basically, the entire conflict is over the concept of free will vs. predestination (and the game never really says who is right, as both sides show instances of being right, such as when one prescribed event is prevented, only for the somewhat vague prophecy to be fulfilled in a different way). Both sides are equally sympathetic, and truly do believe they are right, and both do come across as extreme (you will sacrifice all those on the opposite side and risk the world's destruction after all).
Basically, you really do end up feeling sympathetic towards the villain
Basically, the entire conflict is over the concept of free will vs. predestination (and the game never really says who is right, as both sides show instances of being right, such as when one prescribed event is prevented, only for the somewhat vague prophecy to be fulfilled in a different way). Both sides are equally sympathetic, and truly do believe they are right, and both do come across as extreme (you will sacrifice all those on the opposite side and risk the world's destruction after all).
Basically, you really do end up feeling sympathetic towards the villain
Xenosaga
Albedo. It takes a bit of background to sympathize with this guy, as he is completely insane and isn't afraid to show it (this includes mind raping a main character by ripping off his own body parts while standing in front of a room full of dead girls who look just like her).
He's a false human born to be used as a weapon who learns early on that he will outlive the universe itself (as well as the brother who he was born conjoined to, whom he thought would always be around to protect him), finds out everything about the organization that made him (including the plans for him and his three brothers), meets a Lovecraftian horror on a mission onto a planet where a bloody battle is taking place, and ends up thrust into a battle between forces from a higher plane of existence.
Plus, it turns out that all his plans were made for the purpose of angering the only man who could kill him: his brother, who would not do so for a variety of reasons. Basically, the villain was trying to die rather than living on forever (in what was soon going to be an empty universe).
He's a false human born to be used as a weapon who learns early on that he will outlive the universe itself (as well as the brother who he was born conjoined to, whom he thought would always be around to protect him), finds out everything about the organization that made him (including the plans for him and his three brothers), meets a Lovecraftian horror on a mission onto a planet where a bloody battle is taking place, and ends up thrust into a battle between forces from a higher plane of existence.
Plus, it turns out that all his plans were made for the purpose of angering the only man who could kill him: his brother, who would not do so for a variety of reasons. Basically, the villain was trying to die rather than living on forever (in what was soon going to be an empty universe).
Yeah, but the moral of the story, ironically, (given the nature of what you're playing) is to not become trapped within your fantasies, lest you be consumed by them. Growing up means accepting the harshness of reality, and adapting to overcome the hardships.megs1120 said:
It was far more unfair for Doned (stupid ass name, but whatever. So is "Mewt".) honestly.
Actually, while I do feel bad for Magnus, his punishment actually WAS the diplomatic thing to do from the Emperor's POV. Everyone in the Imperium had no idea how dangerous warpcraft really was, but the Emperor did, and I think he meant to make an example of Magnus. To show that NO ONE is allowed any leniency when it came to warp magic, not even his sons. Remember, despite being all about fighting the Emperor had an entire empire to think about. If he'd let Magnus off with a wrist slap for witchcraft and then burned a planet to the ground for the same offense it would cause whispers of dissent amongst the people. There would be talk that the Emperor favored the Astartes over his human subjects, furthering widening that divide, and the Emperor couldn't afford anything less than unity of purpose. So he had to come down pretty hard on Magnus. Having both humans and Astartes on the jury was to show that the Imperium was not divided. Everyone, even the Space Marines and the Primarchs, was accountable to the Imperium, not just their own little cliques.Longshot said:
I think this goes for Lorgar too. Primarch in-fighting and rivalries was already a problem (that would only get worse when Horus was named Warmaster). The Emperor couldn't really afford to get involved, lest his sons think he was showing undue favor or sympathy. Its probably why he had them police each other rather than doing it himself.
But honestly, yeah. The Emperor could have used a few lessons on parenting. Then again, the guy was playing the long game from the very beginning and probably didn't have the time or patience to go bopping around the galaxy to scold his sons.
Actually, you wanna know a Primarch I do feel sorry for? Fulgrim. He may have been a huge narcissist and kind of an asshole, but amongst the traitor Primarchs he didn't even have a choice in the matter; he was possessed and driven against his will. He never even did anything wrong, he just had something of an identity crisis and an unfortunately long look at some alien geometry.
Well, I was sympathizing with Tim. That is, until I found out he was an evil, stalker atomic bomb or whatever the hell ended up happening at the end of Braid...
I agree with you on the moral of the story and all of that, but the storytelling was too muddled to make the point effectively. Mewt didn't need to be that miserable, and to make the story connect properly, Marche shouldn't have been portrayed as having a flawless childhood. He needed to overcome some flaw in his real life, to confront Mewt and let him know that his life is no better than Mewt's, but that ugly reality is still worth living in. Otherwise, the game ends up telling the story of a popular kid taking away a miserable kid's fleeting chance at happiness.Atmos Duality said:
The story could have worked, but in the end, it didn't, at least, not for me.
