Have you heard of a "Homosexual Therapist?"

[AdeptaSororitas]

And from his point of view, he is helping people. If someone genuinely does not want to be gay, then why should they be forced to be? We don't tell transgender people that they cannot under any circumstances be the opposite sex, do we?

Not the same thing. He's deluding people into thinking that they can change their sexual orientation and that's just cruel. He's an incompetant therapist, there are far more adept professionals who would actually help them through their issues and with time and patience will help the patients to accept themselves for who they are. Sex change operations are a viable option, you can't change your sexuality even if you want to. Also: 'The current consensus among scholars is that sexual orientation is not a choice.[5][6][7] No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, but research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[8] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.[9]' That's from the Wikipedia article on Sexual orientation, it provides links to other websites that expand on this and I'm sure any psychological association will also affirm this. The important thing to emphasise hear is that the psychological and scientific community are in agreement that sexual orientation is not a choice.

No, it says its effected by BOTH environmental and genetic factors, therefor, yes, it can be a choice. Take a psychology class, thats one of the first things you learn. Nothing about a person or their personality is strictly unchangeable. It's like tanning. They were BORN white, they don't want to be that shade, ergo they change it. And before you begin, yes, they are the same, they can both damage you mentally if done wrong and physically if done REALLY wrong, like anything in life.

Not what I'd call the best analogy. Also, in regard to environmental factors your choices may contribute to or shape your sexuality but these are not conscious choices. You can't dictate the gender(s) you are attracted to. I'm bisexual and as a result of having a crush on a straight male friend my life is fucking miserable at the moment. I don't want to be attracted to him but I can't help it. And what do you mean by 'it can be a choice' are you really saying that some people can and some people can't choose their sexuality and it's just a random lottery as to which you come out as? If so, then I'm sorry but I find that assertion rather ridiculous.

No, I'm saying that some straight people may WANT to be bisexual or even fully Homosexual and some Homosexual might want the same, that's choice. I'm naturally bisexual, but I have a friend who was hetero and WANTED to be bisexual, just to see, he found his life much more interesting. He might not have been born bisexual, but due to his choice to try, and the environment reinforcing his choice, he is now bisexual. It happens.

 

[orangeban]

No, I just explained why it was my business. A) it colours peoples perception of homosexuals (from, they are born that way to either, they chose that, or they could be straight if they wanted which is a *big* difference.)

He's saying they can if they want to be. That's a far cry from "cure all gays"

Further, your point is "It affects other's opinion of a group!" is piss poor justification at best to messing with what people do on their own time.

But it doesn't just affect it, it encourages it. This man is actively saying, homosexuality is a choice, and it can be changed. This is the difference between someone going, "I hate black people" to their friend who agrees, and that same person putting an article about hating black people in a national newspaper.

And there's been a little debate about whether surpressing your sexuality can hurt your mental health or not, but forget that, at least notice that it hurts your wallet. The way I see it this man is a quack, selling snake oil. And he's selling expensive snake oil with dirty water in it, it may just hurt your wallet, or it hurts your wallet *and* gives you cholera.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Then you are wrong. Try and get a straight guy to watch gay porn and see what happens. He will be limp, whereas a gay/bi man would be aroused as that is their natural reaction to it. It's not something we can help, if people could choose their sexuality then no-one would want to pick an orientation that will potentially make them victims of descrimination and ostracised amonst their friends.

I'm afraid you're wrong.

All men who have been clinically tested experience some degree of physical arousal to both gay and straight porn (based on measuring blood flow to the genitals and temperature changes on the skin as measures of physical arousal). The degree varies, but it always happens. This doesn't mean that all men are bisexual (in fact, the research conclusion, in a perfect example of clinicians having no grasp of theory, was that no men are bisexual because all experience unequal level of arousal to different stimuli. I think that deserves a slow clap.)

We don't need that argument to make this guy wrong.

 

[Yoshemo]

So, because I'm closer to my mother than my step-father, I'm going to be a lesbian?

And because I'm closer to my mother than my father, I'm going to be a gay guy? Well, I am gay but that proves nothing! I've heard these "homosexual therapists" that you turn gay from being too close with your mom and father. And I have straight friends that are both closer and more distant to both their parents than I'll ever be.
Take it from therapist that is actually homosexual. YOU'RE BORN THAT WAY

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

But it doesn't just affect it, it encourages it. This man is actively saying, homosexuality is a choice, and it can be changed. This is the difference between someone going, "I hate black people" to their friend who agrees, and that same person putting an article about hating black people in a national newspaper.

You seem to be missing the point. Just because I state something can be done, it does not mean I think it should be done to every person. Please tell me you understand that.

And there's been a little debate about whether surpressing your sexuality can hurt your mental health or not, but forget that, at least notice that it hurts your wallet. The way I see it this man is a quack, selling snake oil. And he's selling expensive snake oil with dirty water in it, it may just hurt your wallet, or it hurts your wallet *and* gives you cholera.

*Reads over OP*
Yeah, I don't see anywhere there where he claims to make money. Some people do things like this out of the goodness of their heart. As in, they want to help others. Misguided or not, we don't know how much he is making from this.

And again, when one signs up for such a therapy, you must know what you are getting. I would hardly call that fraud without evidence.

 

[orangeban]

Then you are wrong. Try and get a straight guy to watch gay porn and see what happens. He will be limp, whereas a gay/bi man would be aroused as that is their natural reaction to it. It's not something we can help, if people could choose their sexuality then no-one would want to pick an orientation that will potentially make them victims of descrimination and ostracised amonst their friends.

I'm afraid you're wrong.

All men who have been clinically tested experience some degree of physical arousal to both gay and straight porn (based on measuring blood flow to the genitals and temperature changes on the skin). The degree varies, but it always happens.

We don't need that argument to make this guy wrong.

The interesting argument to consider is when people supposedly chose to be gay. Presumably at puberty, when you start to really feel a sex drive, but that's stupid, the order in which I "became" gay wasn't: I choose to be gay, I start getting boners for dudes, instead it went, I got boners for dudes, I realised I could very well be gay.

Also, if it's a choice, why can't I change back? Is life really like an RPG where a screen comes up going "Gay, yes or no?" and the decision is totally binary and irreversible.

And the kicker, if we all go the choice, why didn't we all choose to be bisexual? It makes so much sense!

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

And from his point of view, he is helping people. If someone genuinely does not want to be gay, then why should they be forced to be? We don't tell transgender people that they cannot under any circumstances be the opposite sex, do we?

Not the same thing. He's deluding people into thinking that they can change their sexual orientation and that's just cruel. He's an incompetant therapist, there are far more adept professionals who would actually help them through their issues and with time and patience will help the patients to accept themselves for who they are. Sex change operations are a viable option, you can't change your sexuality even if you want to. Also: 'The current consensus among scholars is that sexual orientation is not a choice.[5][6][7] No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, but research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[8] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.[9]' That's from the Wikipedia article on Sexual orientation, it provides links to other websites that expand on this and I'm sure any psychological association will also affirm this. The important thing to emphasise hear is that the psychological and scientific community are in agreement that sexual orientation is not a choice.

No, it says its effected by BOTH environmental and genetic factors, therefor, yes, it can be a choice. Take a psychology class, thats one of the first things you learn. Nothing about a person or their personality is strictly unchangeable. It's like tanning. They were BORN white, they don't want to be that shade, ergo they change it. And before you begin, yes, they are the same, they can both damage you mentally if done wrong and physically if done REALLY wrong, like anything in life.

Not what I'd call the best analogy. Also, in regard to environmental factors your choices may contribute to or shape your sexuality but these are not conscious choices. You can't dictate the gender(s) you are attracted to. I'm bisexual and as a result of having a crush on a straight male friend my life is fucking miserable at the moment. I don't want to be attracted to him but I can't help it. And what do you mean by 'it can be a choice' are you really saying that some people can and some people can't choose their sexuality and it's just a random lottery as to which you come out as? If so, then I'm sorry but I find that assertion rather ridiculous.

No, I'm saying that some straight people may WANT to be bisexual or even fully Homosexual and some Homosexual might want the same, that's choice. I'm naturally bisexual, but I have a friend who was hetero and WANTED to be bisexual, just to see, he found his life much more interesting. He might not have been born bisexual, but due to his choice to try, and the environment reinforcing his choice, he is now bisexual. It happens.

To me, that just sounds as though he WAS naturally bisexual all along, but it took him a while before he finally decided to act on his curiosity and discover this for himself. In my earlier teens I had a lot of confusing feelings about other guys, but I didn't acknowledge the possibility that I might be Bi. I had the mentality that I like women and therefore I must be straight. But once I started to look into these feelings I made the discovery that I was Bi. Some take longer than others to find out but people make choices that lead them to discover their sexual orientation. The choice to act on their curiosity will lead them to discover whether or not they are gay/bi/straight but they can not choose the orientation itself.

 

[mrblakemiller]

A few thoughts:

1. I don't see any reason why a man can't hang a shingle outside his door saying something to the effect of, "If you're gay, and you wish you weren't, I can possibly help you," and then counseling those who voluntarily walk through his door and ask for this specific kind of help. To call the therapist who hangs the shingle an "enemy" or one who harms others is also to call all those who voluntarily walk into his office for help the exact same thing. In a free market economy, this seems perfectly legal.

2. I believe a person's genetic makeup (some scientists are saying the more older brothers you have, the more likely you'll be gay) plays some role in one's initial choices regarding sexuality. I believe that a person's life experiences also play a major role in what kind of sexual relationships they end up wanting to have (think about it, did you know you had a fetish before you ever heard of that fetish?). All that said, every single time I have any heterosexual sexual encounter (i.e. making out with my girlfriend), it's my choice to do that. I've also consciously chosen to avoid all homosexual sex (including that one time I was propositioned). Even if your sexual orientation were not a choice, what you do with it, the sex you actually end of having, is completely your choice (unless we're talking rape). If this man can help you stop having gay sex the way an AA sponsor can help you stop drinking alcohol, then it makes sense and I see no problem as long as no one is being forced.

3. I stopped believing in the notion that "psychologists say this approach to sexuality is harmful" when I found out the truth behind that whole "homosexuality was a mental condition according to psychologists until the 1970's" thing in my queer literature class in college. Apparently, in the 1970's, the scientists that made that "list" of mental conditions did indeed take homosexuality off the list, but they left transsexualism on. Why? Because transsexuals fought long and hard to keep it there.

But why would they do that? Think about it. If believing that you were born in a body you weren't meant to have is the disease...

Then a sex-change operation is the cure. And if a sex-change operation is the cure...

Take a second to guess.

...

The transsexual can get the insurance company to pay for it.

Amazing how politics and economics blend into our science, isn't it?

 

[Jacco]

Professional therapists are members of exclusive regulatory bodies which grant them the right to use protected terms. Quacks buy mail order doctorates and make up titles for themselves.

2) The fact that his understanding of sexuality seems to come from obsolete generalizations and a loose understanding of personal experience rather than any real clinical research or relevant psychological theory.

3) The general principle which one should take when purchasing a service. "If it sounds too good to be true.."

Listening to him, I got the distinct impression he was a licensed practitioner. I can't find his name, sadly. I've been looking for an hour now.

 

[TheTurtleMan]

What this guy did wrong was he only councils people into knowing if they are actually straight. He should have offered the same type of service to people that are suppressing thoughts about being gay for some reason or the other. That would probably offer a wider client base as well. Most of the people he does council into becoming straight are probably just closet bisexuals that can swing either way.

Although I think the whole "curing" gayness is bullshit, people are just born the way they are and even if this guy says that he doesn't see anything wrong with being gay, he sort of implies it saying that he helps people overcome homosexual thoughts.

 

[orangeban]

(think about it, did you know you had a fetish before you ever heard of that fetish?)

Yes, for a long time in my life I had masochistic thoughts and desires, only recently have I found out it was an actual thing.

 

[bakan]

Another one from the US who thinks he can cure the homosexuals of the world - nothing new, just another idiot...

Every now and then I get to read about those people, but the worst thing is that they make a lot of money with their propaganda and have a lot of people supporting them.

 

[mrblakemiller]

And from his point of view, he is helping people. If someone genuinely does not want to be gay, then why should they be forced to be? We don't tell transgender people that they cannot under any circumstances be the opposite sex, do we?

Not the same thing. He's deluding people into thinking that they can change their sexual orientation and that's just cruel. He's an incompetant therapist, there are far more adept professionals who would actually help them through their issues and with time and patience will help the patients to accept themselves for who they are. Sex change operations are a viable option, you can't change your sexuality even if you want to. Also: 'The current consensus among scholars is that sexual orientation is not a choice.[5][6][7] No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, but research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[8] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.[9]' That's from the Wikipedia article on Sexual orientation, it provides links to other websites that expand on this and I'm sure any psychological association will also affirm this. The important thing to emphasise hear is that the psychological and scientific community are in agreement that sexual orientation is not a choice.

No, it says its effected by BOTH environmental and genetic factors, therefor, yes, it can be a choice. Take a psychology class, thats one of the first things you learn. Nothing about a person or their personality is strictly unchangeable. It's like tanning. They were BORN white, they don't want to be that shade, ergo they change it. And before you begin, yes, they are the same, they can both damage you mentally if done wrong and physically if done REALLY wrong, like anything in life.

Not what I'd call the best analogy. Also, in regard to environmental factors your choices may contribute to or shape your sexuality but these are not conscious choices. You can't dictate the gender(s) you are attracted to. I'm bisexual and as a result of having a crush on a straight male friend my life is fucking miserable at the moment. I don't want to be attracted to him but I can't help it. And what do you mean by 'it can be a choice' are you really saying that some people can and some people can't choose their sexuality and it's just a random lottery as to which you come out as? If so, then I'm sorry but I find that assertion rather ridiculous.

No, I'm saying that some straight people may WANT to be bisexual or even fully Homosexual and some Homosexual might want the same, that's choice. I'm naturally bisexual, but I have a friend who was hetero and WANTED to be bisexual, just to see, he found his life much more interesting. He might not have been born bisexual, but due to his choice to try, and the environment reinforcing his choice, he is now bisexual. It happens.

To me, that just sounds as though he WAS naturally bisexual all along, but it took him a while before he finally decided to act on his curiosity and discover this for himself... Some take longer than others to find out but people make choices that lead them to discover their sexual orientation...

If you might allow me to take your logic to its extreme, doesn't that mean that everyone is bisexual and most people simply don't realize it before they die? Doesn't your logic mean that there are no gay and straight people, just straight guys and lesbians who haven't found the right man, or straight women and gay men who haven't found the woman that finally turns their crank? It's possible, I guess, but I think it a lot more logical to say that the spectrum really does exist.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The interesting argument to consider is when people supposedly chose to be gay. Presumably at puberty, when you start to really feel a sex drive, but that's stupid, the order in which I "became" gay wasn't: I choose to be gay, I start getting boners for dudes, instead it went, I got boners for dudes, I realised I could very well be gay.

You got the early version of that post, so maybe my position wasn't very clear.

I think you're absolutely right, and the people responsible for that particular study were wrong. Sexual orientation is not the same thing as arousal. Normal people experience varying degrees of arousal all the time without it becoming a sexual orientation. As a bisexual, I have a real problem with the idea of determining sexual orientation simply from arousal or even sexual experience.

A sexual orientation, for me and I suspect for you, is a mental and social thing which you arrive at in response to a wide range of things which happen in your life, including experiencing arousal and having sex, but not in any way limited to those things. In my case I'm bisexual, yet for most of my life I've only pursued and had sex with women. I only became bisexual personally and socially when I began to assert a desire for men as a part of my identity, you could argue I was closeted before, but generally speaking neither I or the world had any idea that I was anything but straight. On the other hand, if eventually I settle down in a monogamous relationship with either a man or a woman for the rest of my life, it won't stop me being bisexual.

Plenty of people go most of their lives thinking they're one sexual orientation and then have an experience which turns it around, or which doesn't. I know plenty of people who have had frequent sexual encounters outside of their normal sexual orientation but don't feel it impacts on who they are.

I don't think that's proof that people choose or even that people change, but you have to separate out what is changing and what isn't. There probably is some genetic influence and there may well be some psychological influence on things like arousal or object choice - but those things are not the same thing as sexual orientation.

Most people generally assume those two things are the same, which is why idiots like this "therapist" can get away with believing that changing people's sexual orientation is changing their arousal states and object choice. It's an amateur mistake which makes me very skeptical about anything this person is saying.

 

[AdeptaSororitas]

And from his point of view, he is helping people. If someone genuinely does not want to be gay, then why should they be forced to be? We don't tell transgender people that they cannot under any circumstances be the opposite sex, do we?

Not the same thing. He's deluding people into thinking that they can change their sexual orientation and that's just cruel. He's an incompetant therapist, there are far more adept professionals who would actually help them through their issues and with time and patience will help the patients to accept themselves for who they are. Sex change operations are a viable option, you can't change your sexuality even if you want to. Also: 'The current consensus among scholars is that sexual orientation is not a choice.[5][6][7] No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, but research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[8] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.[9]' That's from the Wikipedia article on Sexual orientation, it provides links to other websites that expand on this and I'm sure any psychological association will also affirm this. The important thing to emphasise hear is that the psychological and scientific community are in agreement that sexual orientation is not a choice.

No, it says its effected by BOTH environmental and genetic factors, therefor, yes, it can be a choice. Take a psychology class, thats one of the first things you learn. Nothing about a person or their personality is strictly unchangeable. It's like tanning. They were BORN white, they don't want to be that shade, ergo they change it. And before you begin, yes, they are the same, they can both damage you mentally if done wrong and physically if done REALLY wrong, like anything in life.

Not what I'd call the best analogy. Also, in regard to environmental factors your choices may contribute to or shape your sexuality but these are not conscious choices. You can't dictate the gender(s) you are attracted to. I'm bisexual and as a result of having a crush on a straight male friend my life is fucking miserable at the moment. I don't want to be attracted to him but I can't help it. And what do you mean by 'it can be a choice' are you really saying that some people can and some people can't choose their sexuality and it's just a random lottery as to which you come out as? If so, then I'm sorry but I find that assertion rather ridiculous.

No, I'm saying that some straight people may WANT to be bisexual or even fully Homosexual and some Homosexual might want the same, that's choice. I'm naturally bisexual, but I have a friend who was hetero and WANTED to be bisexual, just to see, he found his life much more interesting. He might not have been born bisexual, but due to his choice to try, and the environment reinforcing his choice, he is now bisexual. It happens.

To me, that just sounds as though he WAS naturally bisexual all along, but it took him a while before he finally decided to act on his curiosity and discover this for himself. In my earlier teens I had a lot of confusing feelings about other guys, but I didn't acknowledge the possibility that I might be Bi. I had the mentality that I like women and therefore I must be straight. But once I started to look into these feelings I made the discovery that I was Bi. Some take longer than others to find out but people make choices that lead them to discover their sexual orientation. The choice to act on their curiosity will lead them to discover whether or not they are gay/bi/straight but they can not choose the orientation itself.

Even if, they can't what if the opposite is true? What if someone is homosexual, but has a lot of confusing feelings about women, should he shoehorn himself into being homosexual or try and get help to see if he's actually straight or bi? Thats what this guy is doing, he's not saying its a choice, I am. And that's because, well, everything can be and typically is a choice. People who emulate black people are born naturally white(or any other race), but choose to be a part of black culture, it makes them happy and feel complete, just as someone born homosexual can feel happy and complete being heterosexual. It's what makes you happy, no matter what you're born. Yes there's a chance they COULD have been straight, gay, bisexual all along, but science has yet to nail down what decides that so its up in the air at the moment.

 

[mrblakemiller]

Then you are wrong. Try and get a straight guy to watch gay porn and see what happens. He will be limp, whereas a gay/bi man would be aroused as that is their natural reaction to it. It's not something we can help, if people could choose their sexuality then no-one would want to pick an orientation that will potentially make them victims of descrimination and ostracised amonst their friends.

I'm afraid you're wrong.

All men who have been clinically tested experience some degree of physical arousal to both gay and straight porn (based on measuring blood flow to the genitals and temperature changes on the skin as measures of physical arousal). The degree varies, but it always happens. This doesn't mean that all men are bisexual (in fact, the research conclusion, in a perfect example of clinicians having no grasp of theory, was that no men are bisexual because all experience unequal level of arousal to different stimuli. I think that deserves a slow clap.)

We don't need that argument to make this guy wrong.

I was thinking about pointing this out. Thanks for doing it for me. For my money, I'm pretty sure watching gay porn would just make me think about straight porn, ergo make me aroused (not to mention I'll bet the noises are much the same...). It's sorta like how people can get off to hentai. Your imagination is pornographic enough to get the job done.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

snip

Not what I was saying, a gay or straight person could engage in experimentation and find out that it did absolutely nothing for them. I'm saying that someone who thinks they are straight but then discovers they are sexually attracted to the same gender as well are really naturally Bi all along.

 

[orangeban]

But it doesn't just affect it, it encourages it. This man is actively saying, homosexuality is a choice, and it can be changed. This is the difference between someone going, "I hate black people" to their friend who agrees, and that same person putting an article about hating black people in a national newspaper.

You seem to be missing the point. Just because I state something can be done, it does not mean I think it should be done to every person. Please tell me you understand that.

I understand you (I think). I do not think that you think that this should be done to everyone, but your point was wether it was right to stop 2 consenting adults from doing something they want. My counterpoint is yes. Yes, because it almost certainly won't work for the person undergoing the therapy, and could very well harm them in the long run. That should be a good enough reason, but another is, yes, because the idea that homosexuality can be "cured" makes convincing people that homosexuality should be accepted *that* much more difficult.

Edit: Also, he encourages these views that homosexuals were close to their mothers/fathers or they were molested (and yeah, I'm sure being molested turns some people gay) which is stereotypical.

 

[BanthaFodder]

You can scan for typos on an Ipad? Damn, I want that. Curse you lack of money! But on topic, no, he's wrong. Most likly, his "confusion" was just confusion, and he's always been straight.

then he's just helping out other people with similar confusion. the way I see it, he's not like Bachman, saying he can "cure" the gays, like they're effing lepers. no harm done.
in other words, I have no strong opinion one way or another

 

[mrblakemiller]

(think about it, did you know you had a fetish before you ever heard of that fetish?)

Yes, for a long time in my life I had masochistic thoughts and desires, only recently have I found out it was an actual thing.

Touche. I was thinking about, let's say, leather and dog collars, when I wrote that. Some "fetishes" do come pre-packaged, but I see a line between "sex act" (i.e. masochism) and "unique bit or esoterica shoehorned in to sex" (i.e. certain fabrics or very specific tools). Though, to be fair, I guess someone had to have the IDEA for the butt-plug before we could have the butt-plug...