How did The Escapist's culture change so much?

[AgedGrunt]

Have to disagree with OP. If you spend any amount of time in Gaming/Off-Topic/R&P, the forum is heavily tilted on certain things. Er, you did say change, so wait, I guess that doesn't work when there are some topics that have always been "unsafe" if you disagree with the hive.

Really though, the problem was even conceptualizing an open forum as your safe space. Scratch that, how about: why do you need a safe space? Those are for people who either can't handle opposing opinions or can't rationalize what they hold as absolute.

Sadly, it sounds like you're just not happy that this figurative bubble has burst and people are criticizing the (absolutely hilarious) slander and fraud of sexism in gaming, which has reached levels so absurd that even the Escapist, presumably a safe space that has kept out certain icky opinions, cannot remain completely anti-intellectual on the issue and have such been declaring bullshit.

 

[Zontar]

Did you just miss the "Can people stop making this claim until they can prove it?" part? I mean apart from the Target/gta soccer mom bullshit I've seen no evidence that the boycotts were largely by non-gamers.

Outside of the case of GTA 5 I wouldn't say it was by people who didn't play games, just people who didn't intend to play those specific games, since in the case of Assassin's Creed it's a triple A game series that pretty much has most of the market already aware as to weather or not it will be buying it regardless of quality (and its long time audience also didn't care for the issue that was being argued, as was demonstrated by the Liberator standalone, or whatever it was called) and the other was Pillars of Eternity, a game that people got offended at for a joke that was inoffensive and, to be frank, nothing compared to what the rest of the game had to offer.

It's not that they where not gamers in those cases, it's just that they never intended to buy the games.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Did you just miss the "Can people stop making this claim until they can prove it?" part? I mean apart from the Target/gta soccer mom bullshit I've seen no evidence that the boycotts were largely by non-gamers.

Outside of the case of GTA 5 I wouldn't say it was by people who didn't play games, just people who didn't intend to play those specific games, since in the case of Assassin's Creed it's a triple A game series that pretty much has most of the market already aware as to weather or not it will be buying it regardless of quality (and its long time audience also didn't care for the issue that was being argued, as was demonstrated by the Liberator standalone, or whatever it was called) and the other was Pillars of Eternity, a game that people got offended at for a joke that was inoffensive and, to be frank, nothing compared to what the rest of the game had to offer.

It's not that they where not gamers in those cases, it's just that they never intended to buy the games.

Just to be clear here, that joke was not inoffensive to the trans community. While it was blown out of proportion, that's what you get when you offend a very sensitive, and over abused minority. Especially because this is how the common media forms of TV, Video Games, and Movies still tend to treat trans people. We're always used as the butt of some joke and it's getting really damn old.

 

[Zontar]

It's not that they where not gamers in those cases, it's just that they never intended to buy the games.

Once again, evidence?

In the case of Assassin's Creed, sales figures, and their relative position between the recent major entries in the franchise.

In the case of Pillars of Eternity, the fact people got offended by an inoffensive joke that doesn't seem to have offended any of the people it was supposedly making fun of, instead of the countless other parts of the game that are more (and in some cases, actually) offensive.

 

[Zontar]

Did you just miss the "Can people stop making this claim until they can prove it?" part? I mean apart from the Target/gta soccer mom bullshit I've seen no evidence that the boycotts were largely by non-gamers.

Outside of the case of GTA 5 I wouldn't say it was by people who didn't play games, just people who didn't intend to play those specific games, since in the case of Assassin's Creed it's a triple A game series that pretty much has most of the market already aware as to weather or not it will be buying it regardless of quality (and its long time audience also didn't care for the issue that was being argued, as was demonstrated by the Liberator standalone, or whatever it was called) and the other was Pillars of Eternity, a game that people got offended at for a joke that was inoffensive and, to be frank, nothing compared to what the rest of the game had to offer.

It's not that they where not gamers in those cases, it's just that they never intended to buy the games.

Just to be clear here, that joke was not inoffensive to the trans community. While it was blown out of proportion, that's what you get when you offend a very sensitive, and over abused minority. Especially because this is how the common media forms of TV, Video Games, and Movies still tend to treat trans people. We're always used as the butt of some joke and it's getting really damn old.

Odd, the only people I've seen claim offence at the joke so far where people who where not trans, but that's beside the point that one needs to bend over backwards pretty far to take offence at the joke given how it explicitly makes fun of a straight man who died (either from suicide or by accident) because he was too drunk to realize he was sleeping with a man.

Plus even if trans where the butt of the joke (note: they are not) name one group that isn't the butt of jokes? I know I'm not part of any group that isn't used for jokes, I'm a white Jewish overweight man, there's no part of that which isn't the butt of a shit ton of jokes.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Did you just miss the "Can people stop making this claim until they can prove it?" part? I mean apart from the Target/gta soccer mom bullshit I've seen no evidence that the boycotts were largely by non-gamers.

Outside of the case of GTA 5 I wouldn't say it was by people who didn't play games, just people who didn't intend to play those specific games, since in the case of Assassin's Creed it's a triple A game series that pretty much has most of the market already aware as to weather or not it will be buying it regardless of quality (and its long time audience also didn't care for the issue that was being argued, as was demonstrated by the Liberator standalone, or whatever it was called) and the other was Pillars of Eternity, a game that people got offended at for a joke that was inoffensive and, to be frank, nothing compared to what the rest of the game had to offer.

It's not that they where not gamers in those cases, it's just that they never intended to buy the games.

Just to be clear here, that joke was not inoffensive to the trans community. While it was blown out of proportion, that's what you get when you offend a very sensitive, and over abused minority. Especially because this is how the common media forms of TV, Video Games, and Movies still tend to treat trans people. We're always used as the butt of some joke and it's getting really damn old.

Odd, the only people I've seen claim offence at the joke so far where people who where not trans, but that's beside the point that one needs to bend over backwards pretty far to take offence at the joke given how it explicitly makes fun of a straight man who died (either from suicide or by accident) because he was too drunk to realize he was sleeping with a man.

Considering a person who is trans to be not the gender they project as is offensive, as is blanket equations of drag queens to actual transgenderism. Besides inoffensive is essentially a cop-out term. People can be offended by anything at any time, so inoffensive doesn't exist. Just because you find something inoffensive doesn't mean it is. Still the trans person, or drag queen was the punchline in a very bad taste joke, that's offensive.

 

[Zontar]

Do we know that they were never going to buy it or is it like a lot of boycotts actually gaining no traction whatsoever? I mean how many times have hardcore gamers banded together to boycott an Ea title only for there to be no notable effect?

Quite a lot, actually, since most of the people who where part of those boycotts tend to either not have had the intention to buy it, or oddly enough bought it anyway despite their grievance not being addressed (a case of this in hilarious view is the infamous Boycott MW2 group on steam which had most of its members visible as playing the game the day of release). Thouse cases aren't often documented, but when they are they are hilarious.

You didn't find it offensive. at least one gamer in this thread who I know doesn't offend easy and has been pretty outspoken about LGBT pandering would disagree. You don't get to tell people what they can be offended by. Which still doesn't even remotely prove that they were never going to buy it. It doesn't support that theory at all. Feel free to try again though. all you've done is identified that a part of the game offended them more than others.

People get offended by a lot of things, being offended isn't itself a point. We've seen people offended at being asked to explain their reasoning for taking their position (the Sue Park interview). Being offended doesn't make any point, and in the words of Stephen Fry on the subject of people saying they're offended, "well, so fucking what?"

The joke sure shouldn't have offended anyone anyway, since it doesn't make fun of trans people, doesn't insult them, doesn't degrade them, doesn't paint them in a negative light, arguably doesn't even feature or make reference to them (last time I checked gay people where not the same as trans). Really the degree to which one must bend over backwards to be offended by the joke would brake ones spine if it was corporeal, and it going memetic is a sad statement about our generation, as is Obsidian taking the side of an angry mob over its own paying costumers (someone paid big money to put that joke in the game in the first place, money to see the game made at all).

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Considering a person who is trans to be not the gender they project as is offensive, as is blanket equations of drag queens to actual transgenderism. Besides inoffensive is essentially a cop-out term. People can be offended by anything at any time, so inoffensive doesn't exist. Just because you find something inoffensive doesn't mean it is. Still the trans person, or drag queen was the punchline in a very bad taste joke, that's offensive.

Er, I believe the point he's making is that it wasn't specifically a trans person.

For instance, I took it as just being an effeminate gay bloke. Or an equally drunk straight dude and both of them were girlish looking? I dunno.

The poemy thing makes no mention of trans or drag or what have you. Kind of all inference on the part of people getting offended. Varying interpretations and all.

 

[Zontar]

Considering a person who is trans to be not the gender they project as is offensive, as is blanket equations of drag queens to actual transgenderism. Besides inoffensive is essentially a cop-out term. People can be offended by anything at any time, so inoffensive doesn't exist. Just because you find something inoffensive doesn't mean it is. Still the trans person, or drag queen was the punchline in a very bad taste joke, that's offensive.

No, the punchline was that the straight guy was so full of himself that upon realizing he had slept with a man or a trans person (and let's face it, it was implied to be a man, not trans) he killed himself, either intentionally or accidentally. No gays or trans people where made fun of, degraded, insulted, painted in a bad light or otherwise shown in any way which should have caused offence.

You are right about anything potentially causing offence, but not all things are equal. Taking offence to someone saying a group you're a part of should die, that is understandable. Taking offence to that joke, however, is juvenile, and shouldn't have been taken seriously by anyone.

Stephen Fry put it best, and this is definitely a case where this quote applies.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Uh oh. Oh dear. The disheartening irony, dear OP, is that your thread is somehow conjuring the very arguments you were hoping to avoid.
If it's any consolation, I never consider myself part of a community and it helps maintain a distance from any preconceptions that can be automatically placed upon you by being so. I would recommend the same. The wild, rugged traveller merely observes as the self appointed tribes tear at each other's throats

I'm not against arguments, if anything, I wanted some of that old-fashioned Escapist debate.

I'm glad we're all being civil, even though a lot of us might disagree, and it makes me feel a lot better about the site than I had felt after the reaction I got from my friend on facebook.

Personally, I come down on the SJW side of things, but I don't have any problem with Gamergaters or conservatives who are civil and sincere in their beliefs. Being disagreed with isn't an attack, only attacks are attacks, and that hasn't happened, at least not in this thread, so I'm happy.

Refreshingly, it seems a lot more calmer and rational here than ever before. Debate is certainly healthy and it's great to share and evolve opinions without the throwing of feces. I do think most reasonable people have good intentions with their beliefs and to see some lose sight of that and resort to heated attacks or shielded arrogance repeatedly, it can be despairing to observe.
Perhaps this calm air of debate is a sign that people are reaching a much needed level of co-operation and understanding. I welcome the new hive consciousness social atmosphere with open neurons.

 

[Zontar]

Look, can you just tell me now if you're ever actually going to provide evidence that the people behind the boycotts were never going to buy the game in the first place?

In absolute numbers, no, because that can't be done (just as the inverse, that they WHERE going to buy the game, can't be done), but I can point you to trends, which either show the groups are not buying the games, buying them regardless of their complains, or too small to matter, such as AC: Unity outselling its predecessor despite [http://www.vg247.com/2014/11/17/assassins-creed-unity-outsells-black-flag-in-debut-uk-week/]the attempt at a boycott of the game [http://www.hardcoregamer.com/2014/11/17/assassins-creed-unity-outsold-assassins-creed-iv-black-flag-in-the-uk/117854/], which either means the boycott didn't do anything, or it backfired.

 

[Zontar]

Look, can you just tell me now if you're ever actually going to provide evidence that the people behind the boycotts were never going to buy the game in the first place?

In absolute numbers, no, because that can't be done (just as the inverse, that they WHERE going to buy the game, can't be done), but I can point you to trends, which either show the groups are not buying the games, buying them regardless of their complains, or too small to matter, such as AC: Unity outselling its predecessor despite [http://www.vg247.com/2014/11/17/assassins-creed-unity-outsells-black-flag-in-debut-uk-week/]the attempt at a boycott of the game [http://www.hardcoregamer.com/2014/11/17/assassins-creed-unity-outsold-assassins-creed-iv-black-flag-in-the-uk/117854/], which either means the boycott didn't do anything, or it backfired.

So you yourself provide two possible explanations to the sales figures for Unity that aren't that the complaints were from people who weren't going to buy it anyway? Still going to act like it's a fact though aren't you?

Hey, if that is the case then it means that either 1) the group is so small we shouldn't have even bothered to talk about them, or 2) they are so ineffective they managed to be a net positive for Ubisoft because of their actions.

To be honest, I'd hope they where never intended to buy it or bought it anyway if I was in their shoes, because it's pretty much the least bad alternative to them being so small they're completely irrelevant or being counter-productive to their own goal.

Guess it was my mistake giving them the benefit of the doubt, given how you seem to feel about it.

 

[DoPo]

I honestly think you're the first gamer I've talked to who wasn't picked on fairly viciously as a kid for liking dorky things.

Umm, I haven't been picked on. Nobody I grew up with has been either. In fact, playing video games was more the norm than not. Well, OK, true for the crowd I was with, perhaps, but even on the whole nobody picked on random people just because of gaming. Sure, you were more likely to encounter the bullies from school if you played video games but that's purely because they did so, too.

 

[Savryc]

I dunno. Can passive aggression, trying your hardest to insult-while-not-quite-directly-insulting people and an air of unwarranted self importance really be classified as a culture?

Yeah, probably.

You want a real answer though, but I'm not gonna give you one! Have a kinda-sorta-maybe relevant video instead.